Tzaia

Isn't doing so liberating?

Send her this way. There are more than a few people here that she could share experiences with and perhaps get some perspective, or at least have someone else to talk to besides you. Good book I'm reading right now - "Let Your Goddess Grow" Gets into a lot of that holding on stuff.

I'm trying to figure out the purpose. Four hours of what probably was hard labor and 4 hours of "study". Free room and board and a certificate of completion in return. Did these people need experience in working on a farm? Was the farm actually self-sustaining? How were the bills paid? Did people pay to get into the program, or were they subsidized? What happened if someone got hurt, or sick? Did they have to provide their own health insurance? Did they have to sign a "hold harmless" agreement?

I don't know what other choices to add. Let me know and I'll add them.

By reputation I mean the ability to vote for or against posts. Doing so creates a "reputation". For instance, your reputation is +28, while Linda and I languish at -2.

And spoil everyone's fun? He is a young whippersnapper who doesn't know sh!t from shinola. You know, like most of us when we were his age, only most of us didn't know it then, either. But that's different - well, at least for some of us. Linda Z, you are entirely too rational at times. I love it, but it'll cause your "reputation" to suffer.

Rummy - you know I can dish it back with the best of them. In this case I believe the young man was being flippant - nothing more. I feel the same as you about someone coming to my house acting that way, but this is a "public" place, and as such I believe it's best to diffuse rather than respond in kind.

Now what is it about this girl that makes you want to stay with her?

Time will tell if he's a poser. Few are as tough as they claim. In fact my experience is those who say they are tough are rarely tough. They just know how to call people names. I'm just puzzled that there is a desire (need) to dish anything back.

Maybe he was. I'm still not sure that sparring with anyone does anything other than teach someone how to defend and attack. The problem with taking this tactic is that the physical response drains the blood from the head, which causes people to start reacting and stop thinking. I don't believe he is a threat in the real sense of the word, so the response is unwarranted (IMO) and unproductive (again, IMO). He made a typical "opinionated newbie" entrance into this forum. Even though it's a universal experience in every forum I've frequented since 1992, and most of us regulars here should be aware that it happens, there's always a few who pounce on the person (with a highly developed sense of justification for doing so). Is it necessary? If he leaves and never comes back, we (collectively) can rationalize those reasons all we want (and are free to do so), but there will be the element that we (collectively) wouldn't meet him where he is. In my world, that's not something to be proud of.

Over the years the structure of CES has changed, but initially it was a lot like TWI, which involved paying for tapes/CDs and video. When they instituted the "partnership" program, audio teachings and the bimonthly newsletter came along with the partnership. Pretty much everything was sent out first class mail. Even mass mailings were sent straight first class, which is very costly. Now that the Sower's print version is printed on slick paper and is in full color, it costs a lot more money to produce. There is a certain economies of scale, but that break point is in the hundreds. I had always advocated that the teachings and what became the sower should be freely available, and the easiest and cheapest way to distribute was in electronic format. Continue to sell the books and whatever on media (if that's the preferred delivery method by the buyer), but pass those costs on to those buyers. I argued that once you have the production equipment bought and paid for, there is only the cost of maintenance or replacement. If you have the cost of media, duplication, packaging, postage, and mailing materials on top of that, it's hard to control costs. Particularly since they weren't taking advantage of bulk rates. Electronic media has none of those costs past the cost and maintenance of the production equipment. In my mind, it was a no-brainer to move to electronic distribution, and advocated it as early as 2002. Once they were able to move past the TWI model of materials distribution (which revolves around the notion that charging people for teachings makes them more receptive), and found they had the ability to post videos and audio on free sites, only an idiot wouldn't take advantage of that. But they really had to get past the money = appreciation dynamic. The Biblical Unitarian site, which was mine, showed them that making everything freely available would generate more interest. Jeff was really the one who caught on and asked me to set up the TorT site. Both of the sites are dated (visually), and I wouldn't be using the format at all, but the reasons behind that are based on antiquated notions about how search engine optimization works. I think that STF has it wrong about church and that is because it still clings to too many things TWI. TWI followed a "tree" structure, while STF is basically a weed patch. There is no central core of corporate worship from which small groups emerge. STF produces teachings and independent groups affiliate. So to answer your question, I'm not particularly jubilant. They could have been doing this years ago, and they haven't even made a scratch in uncovering their potential (assuming that God wants them to be more visible).

I don't even know where to begin. Every offshoot/next generation outfit thinks it has the kinks ironed out of what it thought was a good thing gone bad. People tend to defend what they believe is good. Most of the people here did whatever they believed was necessary to defend their system of beliefs back then and even now (to a certain extent). The thing I fear is that this onslaught is going to cause him to become defensive and less willing to share and we will be less informed because of that. I would like to hear what the young man has to say, so I'm asking for people to back off even if you are offended by what he says and how he says it. Or Caleb, if you prefer, we can go private with the discussion. Caleb - what most of us fear is that you've gotten involved in yet another version of what was for many, a very abusive religious organization. The tendency to believe than anything or anyone associated with the Wierwille name, who has not specifically condemned the beliefs and practices, is simply repackaging them. It appears that while your parents left TWI, they still associated with others that still held to the beliefs. There are a number of people here who don't like TWI, but still revere PFAL and all the books - at least prior to LCM. Is that the case with your upbringing? It's the opinion of many here that VPII is probably repackaging his grandfather's "work," which isn't even really his. Since you seem to be aware of what was taught by VPW, could you tell us how or if VPII is more his own person, or if he's following in his grandfather's footsteps?

Caleb, welcome to GSC. Could you please clarify what you mean by "the word"?

Dang, I can't believe you are playing with us like this.

RumRunner, No one gave a whoop at the time. TWI's making such a big deal out of when he was born took all the fun out of Christmas. At least STF doesn't make a big deal out of that like TWI did. It doesn't matter whether he was born in a house, inn, stable, or barn. It doesn't matter whether Mary had the help of a midwife or whether she and Joseph ended up being the only ones there. None of that makes a bit of difference. It's just one more thing to feel like there's a "one up" on orthodoxy. There is "a" version of the Bible that uses house instead of inn. One uses "lodging," while another uses "living-space." Most people don't read any of those versions. The point is that no one gave up their bed and Mary didn't get any special treatment just because she was having a baby. I don't know. I just thought it was ironic how so much emphasis was put on a single word that doesn't make a bit of difference in the outcome.

I can hear the plaintive sigh and see the shaking of the head.

I agree. I haven't talked to anyone since MG's "departure," but what little I've listened to tells me they have no idea. I'm just not sure I want to go to all the trouble to point out additional flaws in their thinking. They thrive when they think they're in the throes of "persecution."

People who are depressed have a fair amount of remorse and regret in their lives based on either their actions, or their response to other's actions. I agree that Anti-socials and narcissists have little in the way of remorse or regret to get in the way of doing what they do. There may be times of emptiness, but I would sincerely doubt if it's the same type of emptiness as the narcissist or anti-social. I think it's a different sort of emptiness, similar to the type emptiness experienced by the person with borderline personality disorder, but on a different level.

I was perusing the STF website in an attempt to find out more about what STF has been up to during the time that MG was removed as president and his later resignation from the BOD, and happened upon a 1+ hour teaching on the birth of Jesus. I wondered what JWS could add that no one else had uncovered. Well, nothing. The hour-long podcast delved into the notion that Jesus was born at someone's house instead of an "inn," and that this had been known by biblical scholars for a long time. Duh! Then we get regaled by a purely speculative account of what could have happened during the birth of Jesus and how adding this speculation makes the birth of Jesus so much more meaningful. John, I was really hoping that you would have gotten into more of why Matthew's account of Jesus' birth is so very different than Luke's. In Matthew, it appears that Mary & Joseph actually live in Bethlehem, and they take off for Egypt after God warns them about Herod. I wanted you to explain how a "star" could guide people to Herod, how Herod's people would know about Bethlehem, yet be utterly unaware of a star that attracted people from the east. I wanted to know how a star could literally be above one house, given the relative proximity of dwellings. I wanted to know why everyone didn't go, considering Bethlehem is an easy 2.5 hour walk from the old city of Jerusalem. I wanted to know how you reconcile this account with Luke's version, which puts Mary and Joseph in Nazareth, who go to Bethlehem only after a logistically mind-boggling census brings them to Bethlehem just days/hours before Jesus' birth, and how Joseph and Mary returned to Nazareth with Jesus instead of heading off to Egypt as is stated in Matthew. In light of the huge variance in the birth accounts, doesn't focusing on how a word is rendered in English seems a bit trivial?

Love that monologue. I'm just remembering all the hush-hush over VPW's death, only to find out it was cancer, and feeling vindicated.

Argh. What difference does it make? The guy died possessed of a devil spirit (according to his own theology) and finally got outed for being a first class dirt-bag. Whether he meets with his eternal fate after the dirt nap of his theology or if he's already in the thick of it (if he was wrong about his theology), I'm sure he's with that group Jesus said would prefer they had never known him.

Life felt a lot more sane when I finally quit trying to make it all fit like a hand in a glove.

Yes. That was truly the irony of it all. People were in BIG denial about it at the time.

Cheranne, It might be because your issues were not brought on by TWI. The tendency to gravitate or be drawn to cults comes first. Very few come in with glowing stories of their childhood that spoke of great times in a church. People's level of involvement in church organization tends to reflect what they expect in return; either now or in the eternal life area.

Even as recently as a year ago I thought right doctrine was very important. Now I don't.