Tzaia

I do believe in "believing," but not the way TWI taught it. I'm a big believer that you create your own circumstances. I was a dirt-bag magnet and was pretty fed up with how my life was going. I sat down and made a list of all the qualities I wanted in a future husband. Some of them were negotiable, like hair color. Then I said to God that s(he) would have to put that man on my doorstep, because I wasn't going to go looking for him. That's exactly what happened. Things like that happen a lot.

Or maybe they've come to the conclusion that all the really special people have already come on board and their work is finished.

Wow, WordWolf, it's a freakin' miracle that news of VPW's healing touch would travel that quickly. Not sure how a member of Parliament could offer someone keys to any city, as even back then members of Parliament represented regions, but who am I to question the great man o' god? Quoting that excerpt does uncover one disturbing thing: The way the mind will not let one critically assess certain things. The tendency to take something at face value while ignoring obvious problems is fascinating. At that time there was no reason to question the validity of what this guy said, and so nobody within the organization did. I can read that excerpt now and not doubt for a minute that he made it up. There's nothing included that would verify anything that he said, but it sounds pretty impressive. The difference between this account and other people's accounts of their work on the mission field is that the emphasis is placed on Christ, not on what they are doing. VPW's emphasis is on him and what he did. At least that's my take on it.

Holding people against their will. Withholding food as punishment. Beating people with boards.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533871,00.html This is an AP story.

By the time I arrived on the scene, VPW was already being referred to as the (not a) MOG and the MOGOTW. How did this designation come about? When and how did he transcend being a preacher? At the time I thought it leaned towards hyperbole, but a LOT of people in TWI seemed to think it was true.

Wow. What an answer.

and we're surprised because...

B - are your wayfer folks willing to die so you can have your inheritance at a reasonably young age, providing they've set aside any money.

Dooj - lots of churches do not teach the concept of accountability - whether the sin was committed before the "come to Jesus" moment or after. This whole clean slate thing is wonderful when you can't go to the person and at least try to fix things. It's a whole other thing when it is used to excuse bad behavior. The idea that Christians should forgive other Christians for doing bad things because they are Christians is too simplistic, IMO.

I do not, for one minute, doubt their sincerity. I listened to the mp3 a couple of times and it seemed like JWS really wanted to make the birth event "special" in yet another way, which is kinda ironic in that TWI spent so much time debunking the 3 kings (magi, wise men) tradition, and the whole Christmas tradition in general.

Good points, RumRunner and I can't disagree with any of them.

That's scary.

kinda like high school

I totally agree. That's the reason why I don't go for the "I would never fall for a cult" bs.

If I run into an ex-wayfer, it's usually deliberate. I have a number of friends who used to be in TWI, but I didn't hang with them then. I don't hang with them now because of past affiliation. I hang with them because I like them.

Cheranne, These points are the hallmark of nearly every religious organization. The main difference is that "cults" tend to be more legalistic and are that way presumably for the good of the individual and that person's standing with God. The cult creates the aura of having a special relationship with God, not attainable outside the cult, due to a better understanding of what God wants, than what is commonly accepted. No religious belief system can be "proved" wrong, because ALL religious organizations are based on believing and behaving a certain way now to obtain rewards in the life after death realm, and no one's come back to tell us how it really is. We're aligning ourselves with what sounds the best. The problem with TWI was the use of fear and intimidation to control the lives of people, and the notion that the people using fear and intimidation tactics were speaking for God and acting on God's behalf. People who join cults in this day and age, have the opportunity to do so with eyes wide open. If they choose to not do the research and ask the questions, or blindly trust, then that's really their problem. No one can plead ignorance with all the information that is out there.

Great insight, Chockfull

My tendency would be to frame it a bit differently. I don't know if you read and listened to my spiel on "compensators" but there are rational and logical reasons for becoming involved in a cult or other highly legalistic church organizations, which has to do with the promise of greater rewards. The "problem" is that you are still deeply ashamed of your choices. I have done some things that I'm not particularly proud of, and while I have been shaped by those choices, I am not defined by those choices. Furthermore, I don't let someone else define me by my choices. When people do to me what your friend did, I actually enjoy telling them that it's me they're talking about. They are usually horrified. I know I am when I do it. Once someone commented about my pretty living room and I said it was my "Jehovah's Witness room." She told me she was a Jehovah's Witness. We had a good laugh over it, after I pulled my foot from my mouth. The truth is that you were able to turn away and move in a different direction. A lot of people can't say that.

Very few people are immune to the tug. Very few join an organization with the idea that using and abusing is part of the dynamic. Some people have no idea what that looks like, while some people have a very different idea of what that looks like. Now you know what it looks like to you. Do you still walk into those situations? Even if you do walk in, do you stay longer than you know you should? If you are able to stay away or walk away, then your time in TWI taught you what you needed to know and do to keep yourself safe.

I know exactly what you are talking about, and you're right about the audience.

I don't think being a little ticked off is a bad thing. It's being consumed by being ticked off which is the bad thing.

Is that lint in my belly button or hair? We still can't agree.

Geisha, for your own sake, find some meaning in it, even if the meaning is that some really bad decisions were made. Some lessons are hard learned and that's the reality. The important thing is to not give in to the self-defeating talk. Yes, it would be nice to be in a different place by now, but you aren't, and for that matter, neither am I. It would have been much cheaper for me to have finished college in the 70s, but I didn't until last year, and I'm still looking for work and have a lot of student loan debt. But I did it, and so did you. Chalk it up to being a late-bloomer. TWI didn't damage me deeply because I was already reeling from damage and was very sensitive to getting sucked into something that wasn't in my best interest. Had it been 2 or 3 years earlier, my story may have been very different. But by the time I signed the green card I had already made up my mind to not throw myself into anything where I would have to relinquish control. I caught on early that the deeper one got into TWI, the more control one had to relinquish. Back then, being the wet blanket to somebody's power trip was no fun, but I really couldn't see the benefit of letting others have their way with me, even if they were invoking God, so I didn't. I can think of far worse judgment calls than getting sucked into a cult and you did finally wise up. Some haven't.

Humiliated because you made some bad choices? Everyone makes bad choices. It's the ones who don't "owe" up to them that you need to watch out for. A lot of very good people were sucked in by the empty promises. Some were really sucked in. Some remain sucked in. I don't walk up to people and tell them I was in a cult, but I don't avoid the topic. I honestly believe it has given me compassion and a perspective that I might not otherwise have gained had I been a part of "orthodoxy" all along. As for "normal," everyone seems normal until you get to know them.