Tzaia

I've read the criticism of McLaren's philosophy or theology (whatever you want to call it). He's not a Bible thumper - and I like that.

I like that, geisha. I don't think I'll ever do for an author what Oprah does, but who knows?

I was in the lobby of the local museum of art where he was teaching in the auditorium. He was walking through the lobby. I can't remember if I walked up to him, or the other way around, but I do remember that he took my offered hand, held it too long, and looked at me like all he wanted to do was get in my pants. The next time I met him was at an impromptu meeting at our local limb when he was going through on the Harley and motor coach. For whatever reason I was invited. There were about 50 of us in there and I was sitting in the back with JAL's dad being all snarky. I recall the reverence towards him by the others, but I figured if he was going to sit up there practically chain smoking and drinking, then we weren't really having a god meeting, it was just a get-together. He was co-mingling pretty well there before and after, but there's nothing that particularly stood out in my mind other than some people feeling the need to monopolize his time.

Unfortunately VPW did not delve much into who is as much as he went into detail about who Jesus is not. So, IMO, the book title was appropriate. One God One Lord is a much better book for explaining who Jesus is, even though my personal theology regarding Jesus has evolved since that book was written.

I watched it on TV. It may have been hot, but since we had AC, I don't remember it being hot. If it was a Sunday, then my dad was probably home and wishing he were not home and drinking beer since he rarely drank at home. He preferred to get all liquored up at the local American Legion and drive. Actually, the summer of 1969 was the best summer of my life and was the end of life as I knew it.

Very funny - and sent me off on another tangent.

"These kids" don't need a fat farm - I'm just saying that the regimen might actually produce real transformation rather than package free labor under the guise of spiritual enlightenment.

good call...

And risk the possibility that I could become even more insufferable than I already am? I don't think so. Oh that's ok with me. LCM lost me at the point when he was willing to dance badly in tights.

11 times? I have never watched anything that warranted watching 11 times - unless it was something Zucker Abrahams & Zucker wrote and directed, or one of the National Lampoon "Vacation" films.

Ok, let me reframe that - it might appear that most here don't really want to do anything other than badger the heck out of the guy. However, four hours a day of disciplined physical labor along with careful eating over a period of nearly a year would probably make someone a winner on the biggest loser. Why doesn't the guy just start a fat farm? Now that would be a transforming experience.

The reality is that most here don't really want to do anything other than badger the heck out of the guy. There are very few people that I've been acquainted with that can hold their own in that kind of situation. Although one would think that four hours a day of bible study/training, along with four hours a day of disciplined physical labor would adequately prepare someone to hold one's own in a debate or arm wresting competition.

This just occurred to me - whoever wants to could start pounding TWI with requests to get the video version put on DVD and made available to all people who took the class - free of charge, of course. I, unfortunately was never privy to the video version, which I was told was "superior" to the audio version I had to keep myself awake through.

I have never been an "insider" in any religious organization. You don't get full access to any of them without some open display of allegiance.

Leafy called this disquieting. I am stunned by these stories.

He's one of my faves. I try to stay up just to catch his opening.

My father died of cancer in '73. My uncle died of cancer in '78. My aunt died of cancer in '79. I was diagnosed with cervical cancer in '85 while I was in TWI. I was amazed at the attitude (and later the irony). My sister was diagnosed with breast cancer in Sept. '04. She died 2 weeks later. Dad told me to live a life of no regrets. Cancer at 29 sort of nailed that home, but "life" sort of got in the way. My sister's death caused a reversal of my letting life get in the way. I fired most of my clients and went back to school full time. Other than needing a job, I'm pretty regret-less.

C.S. Lewis said that heaven will be a place of joy; where what is considered "frivolous and unimportant" on earth will be placed first, for "Joy is the serious business of heaven."

Twice in my life I have said (or thought) that if this is what Christianity is all about, then I don't want any part of it. The first time I said that was when someone told me that God had made my son sick because we weren't giving our full 15%. I think you all can guess the context of that occasion. The second time I thought it was late last summer after point-blank telling one of my old boyfriends who had "looked me up" on Classmates and invited me to be his "friend" on Facebook, that without dealing with some things in our past, that there could be no present "relationship" however superficial, which caused him to promptly block me. At the time, I thought it was kind of strange that a "committed" Christian who preached love, forgiveness, and doing the right thing reacted like that. So I tried again to help him understand that I believed that part of living a Christian life was making amends. His idea was that since he was a Christian, that I was supposed to move on. God had forgiven his sin; so should I. My experience with this particular person is not unlike the experience that some women here had with leadership, in that they were used by leadership sexually. I believe that these men (and women) who used others sexually within TWI owe the people they hurt a direct apology. I don't blame those who have experienced direct abuse at the hands of leadership for continuing to be hurt and angry by what happened to them. This kind of abuse is not (IMO) covered in a one apology covers all, or by invoking some kind of "bygones" mentality. The same thing applies in my situation. I really don't care if you've confessed it to God - I didn't hear it. I think it is unbelievably complacent to think that God doesn't pay attention to that kind of attitude. So I started thinking that I really did not want to align myself with a religion that doesn't take to heart the commandment to love God and love your neighbor at its most basic level. In my opinion, Christianity has fallen miserably short in this area. Since then, I have immersed myself in the study of philosophy, religion, and world religions, and in doing so I have felt myself being pulled further and further from Christianity - the religion. I can't continue to be the same kind of Christian as I have been. I can't live in isolation like when I was a part of TWI; I can't live in smugness like I did when I was involved with CES; and I can't feel like I'm living a lie like I do every time I'm around my Presbyterian colleagues. Why? Because I think they pay entirely too much attention to the wrong things at the expense of the basic message of Jesus. I can't remember why I looked up this particular author, but I started reading Brian D. McLaren's "A New Kind of Christian" a couple of days ago and I find myself overwhelmed because it is addressing the very issues that I have been struggling with for almost a year - what does "good" and "sin" look like to a Christian and how is that different from how Jesus actually taught it? This is kind of my beginning of dialog on this subject. Maybe some of you have read the book, or would be interested in reading it and talking about it more.

Maybe irrelevant.

There has been something along the lines of a "law" of believing around for quite a while. Unfortunately, TWI in its need to reinvent everything, totally screwed it up. Rather than propagate abundance and trust that God wants us to have blessings and abundance, TWI's take on "believing" created a sense of scarcity and fear that God's protection was conditional. It was OK and practically required to step out on "believing" by spending money that one didn't have on behalf of TWI (buying tapes, books, classes, and abundant sharing), but cause for admonishment for people to step out on their own behalf by doing things such as purchasing a home or buying a car with the belief that God would provide what one needed to pay the bills. What I saw as "crazy" was how TWI wanted to work against common sense, like the idea that one could chain smoke and "believe" for perfect health. Or that one could drink excessively, and not suffer ANY consequences. Those behaviors are not consistent with any of the affirmative belief systems that I am familiar with. I walked away from the TWI model, just like most of you have, because it obviously wasn't working.

Past the pre-PFAL believing for the guy to show up on the door step, I didn't practice believing. I didn't see much in the way of "signs and miracles," so I didn't put a lot of faith in it. I saw a lot of people do stupid things to test their believing and counsel people to do stupid things.

I think you hit the nail on the head - the lack of grace.

Not really. Since he was in TWI, it didn't seem THAT far out there. It did make me look at whoever happened to show up at my door in a whole new way. I did the list before I ever went to my first twig.

There are some things that are true of any religious organization, but they seem to be more pronounced in cults or ultra-conservative organizations. 1. The tendency to distrust psychology or psychiatry, or most any science (for that matter). My reality is that I had benefited from those services, so I was not inclined to dismiss their usefulness. Putting that kind of distrust in these kinds of services leaves people at a disadvantage. What happens is that one tends to become dependent on the "wise counsel" of people who are not trained, are not qualified, and are not bound by the ethics of professionals. One is not receiving a (relatively) objective view of a situation when one limits their "wise counsel" to someone in a higher position. Everything is framed around what is best for the organization, the leadership of the organization, or even the appearance of the religion. The individual's best interest is either secondary or non-existent. 2. Censorship. Whether it be what one reads, watches on TV, sees in a theater, listens to; what one wears, or how one wears (usually) her hair; social activities like dancing or cards, worship style; what one eats and drinks; who one hangs out with. There's a lot of need to conform. 3. Conspiracy theories. A dislike or distrust of society in general and governments in particular. 4. Heightened awareness of the spirit realm and the feeling of being at war with that realm. 5. The feeling that the organization serves as protection. There is no power in the self.