Tzaia

I'll tell you what was so sad about this whole spiders out the nose thing: The whole idea that having these thoughts (whether they be prophecy or dreams) constituted a "good" or "godly" thing. All this took place within the context of God sharing this information as a warning. No one, I mean NO ONE stopped and considered the ill effect of having, much less stating that they were having these kind of thoughts. It seemed to be all along the line of normal, natural discourse, which I guess was for them in their world.

Yup, it is.

You probably took it right, the problem is that so much of what was taught in TWI was designed to hold people accountable while not being accountable. My understanding is that a fair number of people had their lives and reputations trashed by TWI and liken LCM's outcome to be somewhere in the realm of karma. Yes, there is a certain amount of rejoicing in his iniquity, but then again, he brought it on. The truth is that he could come on here, apologize, and attempt to make amends for his part in the damage done to these people's lives, but he has yet to do that. He either feels he owes no apology, or he lacks the guts to face people. Either way, it's hard to respect the guy. I, for one, am thrilled that the comments have moved beyond the scriptural accuracy doctrine genre and into what these leaders were/are really like and how this has impacted people's lives.

This is off topic, but the point of the Home Depot references is that (apparently) LCM bragged that he could run a Fortune 500 organization. The consensus around here among those who post, is that the only way he could run any business is into the ground. And some have a lot of fun imagining what that would be like considering the best he's been able to muster is a job at HD, maybe in the paint department, because he was so good at whitewashing and covering up things - well at least until someone figured out he was no VPW and not even an acceptable wannabe. Then it gets even better once people find out he learned all this from VPW himself, and another idol gets whacked off the pedestal. It tends to shed new light on the prevailing truth. Personally, I don't care if people do drive-bys and knee-jerks. You wouldn't be the first to come here all arrogant and condescending. Heck, some of us go right back at 'cha. That's the fabulous thing about GSC; it's full of people that have some junk to work through, and some who don't even know it until they settle in.

I got the distinct impression that TWI believers were considered the only "true" Christians. If one didn't call oneself a Christian in TWI, it was only because one didn't want to be aligned with false Christians, which was pretty much everyone else.

Reminds me of the Jim Jones documentary I was watching earlier this week. People weren't really allowed to talk to each other. It was that isolation that kept people from comparing experiences. For all you know, all those letters might be made up. TWI just might be nothing more than a tape and a magazine sent to the few, and a few classes for those who are willing to spend the money. Cranking out nonsense to those willing to pay for nonsense.

I finished "Adventures in Missing the Point" and am now half way through "A Generous Orthodoxy". Adventures in Missing the Point is written in a tag team style where two authors write about a subject under three major headings - God - World - Soul. Sometimes one fills in the gaps, or even disagrees. I moved through the book very quickly. Honestly, I never got missionaries. I never liked cold-call witnessing. There is only so much self-congratulating (for being saved) one can do alone, or even within a group of like-minded people. This book has forced me to take a long, hard look at just exactly what have I done with my faith besides become adept at defending it.

Why do you love it, even if you're not sure what it means? I am honestly trying to wrap my mind around this quote that two have claimed is the most influential quote in their lives.

Did Mr. & Mrs. Bank Prez fall for all the flattery?

Depends on the venue. You see all those scenes where people try to wash away the shame of being violated. Somehow I don't see that as being the issue at HQ - at least by those who are on "stage".

I left before things got that depressing, I mean exclusive.

Corpse might have had to work their arses off at HQ or any of the campuses, but whenever they were out on the field, many of them expected to be waited on.

JAL and the "office manager" live north of the current office. There's no easy way to get from the north side to Martinsville. It's at least an hour long drive anyway you look at it. This is pure speculation on my part, but I would imagine that anyone who wants to work for them will move in that direction. I agree with Rejoice. It's probably more about convenience.

I bet that was a sight for sore eyes...

Life is complex. PFAL tried to narrow everything down to a formula that somehow need never change. If you believe, you will receive. If you don't, you won't. If you speak in tongues correctly, you will be in perfect fellowship with God. If you don't, you won't. If you give 15%, your life will be blessed. If you don't, you won't. On and on and on. We were guaranteed that operating these principles would always give the desired results - after all we are talking about God, and if one wasn't getting the desired result, then one had only themselves to blame. PFAL gave easy answers to complex questions. But let's face it, things didn't always work out. I got hit in the face with the insanity of the beliefs relatively early in my time with TWI. I pulled back to a more comfortable level and was able to be in some sort of TWI-style belief system until early 2005. The only reason why I was able to have any involvement was because I had limited involvement, which kept me on the outside. I struggled with doubt (still do), lack of faith (still do), and some guilt (still do), but it was manageable because I didn't have people in my face all the time over what I was or wasn't doing. That was my choice. It turned out to be the right choice for me. When I finally pulled away completely, I felt nothing but relief and have had no regrets - not even the regret of not having done it sooner. I was reading today where doubt can be healthy. It, along with guilt, can be a sign that something is not quite right. These things are not necessarily triggered due to a failure on your part. People who tell you that your failure causes fear, doubt, and guilt are being self-serving. I don't know how many people who read this site are still engulfed in these belief systems and stay due to guilt, fear, and doubt. My question to you is this: Will you consider that God may be trying to reach you and free you from these belief systems? Isn't God bigger than your fear? Your guilt? Your doubt? It really is ok for you to take a step back and work through doubt, guilt, and fear - and do so on your terms. TWI (and splinters) seem to have a low threshold for exploring these things and that is not in your best interest. God will remain God regardless of what you do. TWI (and splinters) may not, but that's really not your problem. Your "problem" is whether you want to remain tethered to a system that causes you to live in fear and guilt, and won't let you honestly explore your doubt. It really is up to you.

Step away from the class.

No idea. They don't even list the staff anymore.

Actually, this theology was not taught across the board. I don't know what was taught in CF&S as I never took the class. My husband who had, never suggested that it would be good for me to do so. When this sexual behavior became public, whole branches left when it became apparent that leadership was not going to address these issues with the rank and file. People who stayed decided they wouldn't believe the accusations, or that the accusations didn't matter. Once we were gone, it was clear from the occasional letter from headquarters that things had definitely taken a turn for the worse. It was after one homophobic rant that I mailed headquarters and asked them to remove us from their mailing list. We have had no further contact. While we were involved, there was not any suggestion that sex outside of marriage was a good thing, with the exception of one instance. I found out a girl had been seduced by a WC grad and was involved in a sexual relationship - until she took the class - after which he promptly dropped her because she had become his "sister in Christ". I confronted the young man and was told by him that people were supposed to do "anything it takes" to being people to the Word. I went to the Limb leader and asked him if this was sanctioned behavior, and he assured me that it was an isolated incident. My husband, who had been WoW and an AC grad, was not aware of any of this behavior. It appears that certain practices in WC were designed to find out who was susceptible and exploit them, because there were WC who never had any idea this stuff was going on. Several WC admitted to indulging in very heavy petting, which, by their accounts, was considered an acceptable sexual outlet. But again, this was not something taught across the board. I believe there were 2 major types of people in TWI. The first type were the ones who hung on every word that leadership spoke and devoured all the teaching, attended all the classes, and felt the need to go WoW and enter the WC. The second type found the PFAL class "useful" for providing a systematic approach to the study of the Bible. Most of the people I knew were the second type, including myself. I believed that as long as one stuck to the system taught in PFAL, one could keep from getting sucked into wrong teaching that was harmful regardless of the source. I found that doing so required a limited level of commitment to the organization, which was frowned upon, but not impossible. I noticed in about 1981 that people started paying more attention to leadership and not paying attention to leadership's movement away from its own principles of study. I started noticing more of a sheep mentality. Around that time, I also started getting bored with the teaching, so for me that boredom made it easier to ignore the teachings. There isn't much that stands out to me as being particularly useful other than "learn to read what's written on the page" and "context". Beyond those 2 things, the whole thing was (what I thought at the time) an attempt to be scientific and intellectual in the approach to Scripture that bordered on the inane. I freely admit that I appreciated TWI for the system of study until recently. As I get more into systems of study, I have found that all systems are based on a set of premises and those premises are subject to bias. The further I move away from systematic theology, the more ridiculous I believe it is.

I can't imagine Martinsville becoming the next "New Knoxville". Seriously, I gave up trying to figure out their logic a long time ago. The camp is north of Bloomington and DG lives somewhere near Martinsville. Perhaps everyone else plans to move down that way.

Always? Hopefully so far. Where I went off the deep end was when I tried to explain to the person how convoluted the logic was. Boy was that a stupid moment.

Brainfixed - your situation was horrific. The people who did this to you were nothing more than demented twisted sick f**ks.

Dysfunction is normal in a dysfunctional home. The problem with TWI is that the kids had no idea who they could trust, so they couldn't tell anyone. As far as standing by and watching someone mistreat a child. I've never been able to do that. I have intervened on many occasions - not just with TWI people. With TWI people I have taken people aside and told them their expectations for a child of x age were unrealistic. We stopped taking our kids to fellowships because of the unrealistic expectations.

According to one of the bimonthly magazines they want a place with more space. They've "outgrown" the home office. They were looking for someplace between Martinsville and Bloomington from what I recall.

Personally? I thought it was ridiculous. Nothing (absolute language) that happens to you, matters very much (really ), or lasts very long (really?); but the way you take it, matters a lot (does the way you take something always matter a lot?), and will last forever (is a very long time). If nothing that happens to you matters very much or last for very long, then how can how you take it matter, much less forever. It makes no sense.

I really do hate the reputation thing.