Tzaia

I am so happy for you and your family.

Did VPW or LCM or ANYONE (for that matter) ever actually have a "revelation" that came to pass?

The cycle of "ever learning" certainly keeps one busy.

Exactly! My husband is more of a man in the way it matters to me than anyone else I've ever met. That's why we're married. He was taking care of business at work and at home and not running off to try to impress people who didn't give a rat's a$$ about him or our situation.

No confusion in my mind. That is a cool graphic.

This has little to do with how our family runs and everything to do with crass people running off at the mouth when they don't get their way. My husband made it clear early on that he never wanted to do a work crew. Some people from TWI apparently didn't get that memo, so they'd call during the day when he wasn't home and I'd tell them that he wasn't interested. I didn't need to ask him because I already knew what the answer would be. I didn't feel it was necessary to interrupt him by calling him at work or giving them his work number because they didn't want to take my word for it, so I didn't. My guess is that they weren't used to someone (namely female) deflecting them and the assumption was made that my husband hadn't made sure that I knew my place. Many of "that" kind of corp were used to talking down to people and they weren't used to someone like me politely but firmly holding her ground. So rather than say something like OK, they'd tell me my husband needed to grow a pair. We've been involved with our church for over 12 years and when I've told someone no on his behalf (because I know that's what he'd tell them), no one has ever suggested that my husband needed to grow a pair.

Correction: You did NOT flake out. You wised up.

Nah, I don't think he cared.

My husband is basically non-confrontational. He usually keeps his mouth shut. On a number of occasions we would get called to do stuff that he didn't want to do, like clean up someone else's yard, whatever. At the time, we had 3 small kids and quite a bit of work we were doing on our own home (which we were buying), so essentially, he didn't volunteer to help out. So, someone would invariably ask me to volunteer him, and I'd invariably tell them no. A conversation would go something like this (usually on the phone): We're cleaning x's house and need someone to clean out the gutters. Would your husband be available to help out at 10am Saturday? Me: No. Them: I'd like to talk to him myself. Me: No you're not. I already know he's not going to have the time, because he has plenty to do around here. Them: He needs to grow a pair. I can't recall how many times I was told my husband needed to grow a pair, but it was more than a couple of times. Why would someone say something like that?

Here's where they are.

This tells me there are still some people whose critical thinking skills have not clicked on.

Hindsight has a certain clarity about it that foresight seems to lack.

Looks like it is. There is no statement of beliefs.

Some people never get it. You did. How wonderful.

The guy was Teflon coated. If there were doubts, people gave him the benefit. Because of the outward vices (drinking and smoking) I think people believed he was transparent and honest. His "vices" made him appear to be like one of us, when he really didn't think he was one of us. He trained a whole army of people to promote, protect, and defend his status as the chosen.

I didn't create the categories. I think many who were involved in our previous organization and many who are still in hold to the notion that "right" doctrine is fruit. I know I did for a long time. Is it?

Pretty much. Arrogant, is it not?

I was introduced to a number of rankings for Christians over the years. The ones that stand out most in my mind are: Nominal, Believers, Disciples. Today I read about another: Notional. As defined, a "notional" Christian is one who holds (even passionately) to notions, doctrines, and propositions about Christ (or Christianity in general) yet bear no fruit. Sound like any organization you know?

We used to call my niece "duck butt" because her diaper and the way she walked looked kinda like a duck. Maybe in Howie's case someone dropped the butt part.

The important thing is how they take it, because THAT will last FOREVER!

It was another means of control. PERIOD. My belief is that if God has something God really wants me to know, then God is able to get my attention. While God may need to use other people, I tend to believe that's a last ditch effort. It was not looked at that way. It was more along the lines of a better or more mature understanding of spiritual matters, which based upon past experiences, SHOULD have thrown up a huge red flag. I literally would not let anyone speak prophecy over me. I think it's something along the lines of "I know something you don't know," which, IMO, is arrogant BS. This was done at JAL & EL's (first) wedding ceremony and look how that whole thing turned out. The very same person spoke all this great stuff concerning EL at her wedding and a few months later she's claiming God has revealed spiders coming out of EL's nose? Really!? They ALL freakin' jumped on it. Every last one of them - supposedly without ANY instigation on anyone's part. REALLY!?

Which in turn puts them into a continual state of cognitive dissonance, that is if they have any sense, common or otherwise.

Bramble didn't say anything - not that I have anything against Bramble, or what Bramble says - just that it wasn't Bramble.

No, and the sooner that gets through people's heads, the sooner the whole thing will die away into the oblivion that it should be.