Tzaia

As far as my kids are concerned, there were no good old days in TWI. I was not aware of how much they disliked what little time we did subject them to it until recently. My "good old days" honeymoon era ended pretty much after ROA 1979, right after I took the class. It was OK until people were talking about who should be moving into my townhouse (I wasn't looking for a roommate) and telling me who not to marry.

That's too bad. I used to think we could not make it if we diverged too much in our religious beliefs. It's happened and we've more than survived. It's actually better since we've removed that from the "must haves". I think it's a form of emotional blackmail to tell people that the only way to have a "good" marriage is if it's "God centered". That can allow someone else to define what "God centered" looks like.

The irony of the bureaucracy of TWI was that TWI was supposed to be "different". It was different alright. It was a hybrid of other religious legalistic structures which created a unique legalistic structure. It wasn't that TWI was striving for a level of consistency throughout the organization. It wanted everything the same. Kinda like McDonald's, only for different reasons.

Me not being involved was not a deal-breaker in our marriage. Is it in yours?

All the money was used to subsidize VPW's vanity. From the "campuses" to Gunnison, to the auditorium, to headquarters, to the toys. Promoting the class was done on the cheap. Heck, I was asked to give a "love" offering for the band the very first time I attended a branch meeting/cattle call. (I hadn't attended church enough to realize how uncouth that really was) By the time I took the class, all the collaterals were paperback (a $100 value). Nothing but the best for that man. It seemed reasonable enough until I hiked through a field of cars that made me think I was actually trekking through a junk yard.

My experience is that they try to act honest, kind, etc. because they don't really know how to be that way. They still take far more than they give; there is still a high sense of entitlement; and honesty with them will get you ejected or called possessed.

Amazing how that works. Actually, that still small voice often tells you that it's not a good idea to act as though it never happened (particularly when the forgive-e is unrepentant), but someone else who wasn't at the receiving end seems to think you should.

Actually there's a pretty high level of denial about one's true feelings in TWI. I can guarantee you that my [open] feelings of unhappiness while I was in TWI were definitely in the minority. But there was a LOT of talk about renewing the mind, which speaks to what TWI believes what one's general attitude should be despite an ultra-critical boundary-less environment. Many who have come here were kicked out and weren't unhappy with TWI's teaching. What they did feel was a general feeling of being demoralized, which until they stepped back and took a critical look at the teachings, was not connected with the teaching. Wrong teaching wasn't/isn't TWI's only problem. The generalized decay of critical thinking lead to a dependence on an organization which has nothing concrete to offer that isn't freely available elsewhere, while sucking the life out of a person with its insidious legalism, is a big problem. IMO, TWI and every splinter is wrong headed about what a follower of Christ should be thinking and doing, and it starts with this idea of all these little esoteric "truths" that supposedly set the "true" believers apart, but actually do little more than create pride-fullness. As you have undoubtedly discovered, there are a lot of "deal breakers" within the organization and all the splinters, mostly revolving around someone's lack of "like-mindedness" with the organization. I had to ask myself if I really wanted to put my time and money around that kind of thinking and the answer was ultimately no. GSC is made up of a very lively and diverse group of people. Pull up a chair and take part in the conversations. [a rewrite]

I'm pretty sure God himself told them to stop doing that.

[disclaimer: I don't know RR - never met her - never plan to] The structure of TWI doesn't take into account anyone's "pull" other than the people who have the power to put people in RR's position. This dynamic was made obvious in LCM's ascension. The "crazy" part about anyone from TWI going to a church to talk about how Jesus acted in the gospels is that: 1. TWI cherry picks from the gospels and when push comes to shove, believes they are strictly "for our learning." Therefore... 2. TWI hasn't a clue about how Jesus acted, or if it does, chooses to ignore whatever doesn't work with its doctrine. Furthermore, TWI's entire "structure" is not based on the corporate worship culture, it's more about small groups, which ironically are led like mega churches where all the off-site campuses are linked through video hookup. Actually, she continues to lead everyone off a cliff, only it's far more subtle than LCM. The contrast is in the method. FWIW, LCM didn't ever make you wonder where he stood on stuff. RR strikes me as being a heck of a poker player.

In retrospect, yes. At the time it was considered a cop-out to not be sold-out.

Going about it with the wrong orifice. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Strange behavior for an organization with no members.

I saw a fair number of the >40 crowd led by JAL's parents. No one went corp - too strenuous, but they were big on the whole twig thing.

He has been trying to get to the heart of what is going on in her head and heart. If there was abuse, she's not talking. He is crushed because he was looking forward to having a one flesh relationship with his wife only to find out too late that she wasn't interested in that aspect of their marriage at all and has no desire to work on it beyond trying to convince him that his desire to have sex is out of line. He has remained faithful.

Another problem is that women who don't like sex (erroneously) marry pastors because they believe sex should not be important to the pastor.

Was that the over 3000 books that VP read and then hauled to the trash?

None of those "truths" are certain and we may never know. Now excuse me while I work on getting the plank out of my eye...

You might have distinguished yourself as a person who notices and remembers details. I am that kind of person. It seems like a great quality, but as you've found out, it has its dark side. This ability was a double-edged sword in TWI. If you noticed and remembered details that you shouldn't have, it wasn't a good thing. If you were in a situation where it would have been convenient to have your skill, yet you weren't in a position to know, then that wasn't good (as you discovered). If your memory was different than the leader, that too was a problem. It was rarely a win situation in TWI.

Hi might, but only because he's allowed to do so. He has only as much power as people are willing to give to him. That goes for you, too. Seriously Jeff, you need to find another way of communicating with this guy like telling him in an even tone, "I am asking you to lower your voice, change your tone, and stop the vulgarities, or this conversation cannot continue. I refuse to relate to you on this level." And stick to calmly saying that until he stops. If necessary, leave the room; leave the premises, but DO NOT engage at this level even by standing there and enduring it. This is so off topic, but might I suggest that you arrange to pick up and drop off your child somewhere where this guy isn't present? There is no reason why you should have any contact with him. If he insists on coming around, I'd have a restraining order served on him.

I don't agree. We are all accountable before God even in who we choose for our leaders. That is why when someone tried to tell me what they thought I needed to be doing to please God, I would ask if they would be there to vouch for me at the Bema. It was a rhetorical question. Regardless of why I make the choice, it is ultimately mine to make. IMO, blame needs to be assigned carefully as in blaming cancer on a devil spirit. I would propose that in light of VPW's cause of death and TWI's stance on the cause of cancer, that everything he ever taught needs to be thrown out, because he was possessed.

Everyone, to a certain extent, is a manipulator of opinions. Having said that, I know it's hard to stand by and let people gossip and backbite about you, but it happens all the time. I have found it helpful to believe that anyone who engages in that behavior to my detriment, probably shouldn't have a place in my world. I am saddened that they choose to do that, but the reality is that I can't fix it beyond not giving them any reason to talk. This is frustrating because I really like having the last word.

Twinky, your insight should (but probably won't) give every "innie" cause to pause and consider. If what you are being taught beyond PFAL (or whatever the heck it's being called now) can only be understood within the context of PFAL, then there might be (is) something wrong with what you are being taught (indoctrinated). Furthermore, if your 15% is not covering the cost of weekly/monthly teaching materials, then perhaps your money is not being well-stewarded by TWI.

I had pretty much dispensed with most everything TWI taught, except dispensations. That was before I started revisiting the entire thing - not TWI's take - religion in general Christianity in particular. I don't know where it'll end up, but it won't look similar to what I did believe.

I don't. I used to. Used to love it. Love it. Now I don't, so I won't go there. The freedom to speak is why I come back. Even if I do utter an "I told you so" every once in a while <g>. The last "demon," dispensationalism was demolished about a year ago.