Tzaia

Billy - my experience is that conversations in some things weren't overt. BTW, you worked your butt off when there, but they really didn't care to grow you in your heart's desire, and that is sad.

That is true. She probably should lose the bumper sticker, or deny the relationship, whichever is easier. FWIW, people used to put TWI bumper stickers on their car to call attention to the org. This was done in hopes of striking up a conversation, or providing a point of commonality. That's why most of us thought nothing of what dmiller did.

On more than one occasion I've asked where the head was.

Thanks, Billy - you are the only person who has given me credit. My entire reason for wanting things the way I did was to dilute TWI influence. Since I have not had any contact with the group since early 2005, I don't know the demographic of the average STF contributor. I do know that prior to that, all the big money came from ex-wayfers. Many of the partner profiles published in the Sower are from ex-way (the lingo gives them away) people. Grace Community (isn't that where you go?) is a fabulous church.

I would tend to agree. Of course this council was not widely publicized.

There were 2 groups of people at one time. I don't know if there still is. One group was the ordained group. The other group was the prophetic council. I believe there was some overlap.

Don't confuse happiness with delusion...

Isn't that (what I have bolded and italicized), informally speaking, true of most dyed-in-the-wool TWI supporters?

I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that he took courses in some sort of bible studies when in SC. Whether he completed a degree is another story. There was a period there when it seemed desirable to look into other methodologies and other schools of thought, but the tendency has been to hold on to TWI methods, because (quite frankly) ex-way people are STF's bread and butter. IMO, it would have been beneficial to look into other methods and compare them to the TWI method and show the clear advantages. But then one runs into that pesky problem of the method really not being advantageous beyond supporting TWI's doctrinal stances.

I know (and like) JAL, too. He really doesn't see himself as a man like any other. Therein lies the problem. He's now not happy that he gave up the presidency and the board seat - seemingly oblivious as to why it even got to that place. It makes me wonder if he has come to the conclusion that he was held to a different standard, and if that's the case, then there might be some behavior going on that he was punished for, but is going on with others.

It does imply that people can see.

The ONLY people I knew who were happy didn't know what was going on, or was involved in what was going on.

$195 to teach people how strive in opposition. How useful.

Crosses are "allowed" in STF, as are other symbols.

Lynda - Charlene, I have tried to have that conversation with them for years.

The packet contains a letter from a volunteer that somehow mistakenly believed his contribution was meaningful. I could have written the letter as it was a blow-by-blow clone of what happened to me. Different events - same treatment. It also contained a comparative timeline of STF's take on events and JAL's. It contained the so-called prophecies, and it contained a letter from JAL that apparently preceded the firing along with a letter from a supporter that questioned the BOD's behavior. [other comments] There should never be an even amount of board members and while it is not illegal to have spouses serve on the same board, it can be construed as a conflict-of-interest. JAL has been informed that his departure has been in the works for quite a while. There is at least one person who was not happy about the reinstatement.

Hi and welcome to GSC beanaboos. I taught children's fellowship off and on until we left in 1987. We did it so our 3 children wouldn't have to sit in adult fellowships (and we wouldn't either). We used *some* TWI materials, but we probably did as much with stuff bought from the local Christian bookstore as anything. We tried to hold children's fellowship during adult fellowship. I do think we occasionally had children's fellowships on Saturday morning, but I really didn't like doing it that way. My reason was because of not having any time to do other stuff I considered just as important. I was kinda in a minority with that thinking. Eventually we quit taking our kids or involving them because of some of the stuff we saw happening. I have always believed in my children's right to make informed choices, especially involving spiritual matters, so I encouraged them to go about it their own way. Based on feedback from them, they are grateful for allowing them to make their own decisions in that area. There are a lot of people who left around the time your parents left. Some people moved to offshoots. Some people formed their own groups. Some people moved to regular churches. Some became agnostic or atheist. Many of us are aware we were part of a cult, while fewer of us are aware of how permeated our thoughts were with TWI doctrine. Some, like your parents, can't see it is a cult. Some can't see that every offshoot is a cult - or one in the making.

JAL resigned (rather than be fired) from his paying position in January of 2005 (about the time of my exit). Even though I had lunch with him several months later, he never mentioned this. He might have offered that up at some point, but I made a point of steering the conversation away from CES. He was reinstated later, but at reduced hours due to "financial constraints," which apparently didn't constrain STF from purchasing a building. I told JAL my take on this whole thing. Whether he thinks I'm right or not is up to him.

Fascinating. I think he is still deluded about where all this is coming from. Chockfull said this earlier today in another thread: "I think lying to people is just a facade for hate masked in nice words and smiles. It lasts until you say or do something they don't like, then the real them comes out with a knife in the back." Something to ponder.

My take: With the turning of the screws..... ...."biblical research" is wierwille-endorsed interpretations of scripture. ...."transformed by the renewing of your mind" is waybrain. ...."service to God" is service to twi and abysmally to sexually serving a mog. ...."wooden-spoon doctrine" is "it takes a rome city village." ...."way corps volunteers" are slaves to the master teacher. ...."present truth" is the revolution against one's free will. ...."obey your leadership" is hierarchal distance from you and twi's throne. ....tithing (10%) became abundant sharing (15-20%) and twi wanted plurality giving (20-50%). ...."vpw the teacher" escalated to "wierwille the mog" to "wierwille our father in the word." ....a wow commitment ---> a 4-yr corps commitment ---> a lifetime of twi service ....to stay corps (1995) one MUST become full-time corps ....then, no pets....no pregnancies (w/o permission)....no cable tv....no music lessons for kids, etc. ....the twi-mandates are a monk servitude. DO NOT sugar-coat this.

I'm starting this topic so that we who are out can give some advice to people who are out or thinking about it as their next step in their new direction. Here is my advice: What some of us did was join up with an offshoot, which in retrospect is something that I would not recommend. I don't know why you are thinking about leaving or why you have left. This is the reality: every offshoot is dedicated to some aspect of TWI. They may think they are trying to do it better or a bit different, but the foundation for every offshoot is TWI. TWI is a cult. It demands "like-mindedness," which on the surface seems like a great idea, but in reality it is not. Every offshoot is all about like-mindedness like it is the end-all. What this mentality does is delay your entry back into the world. You might think you can straddle the fence, but there will be a time when you will have to make a decision to stay and swallow the blue pill or go. That is the way it is. If you move to an offshoot, you will not allow yourself the opportunity to really explore your belief system, and I'm telling you that you need to do that. You need the opportunity to question everything you think you know when it comes to your faith and practice. What I have found out since leaving TWI and the offshoot I was involved with for 16 years after that, is that they were really short on actual research due to the limitations set by their basic assumptions and premises. The methodology is very lightweight, as research methods go. However, you will, even using the basic methodology of reading what's on the page and paying attention to context, come to very different conclusions than what was taught in TWI - if you treat the text honestly. The different conclusions start if you read the gospels as being written to you, and not merely for your learning. There is no reason to believe they weren't written to you other than someone's notion that they weren't. That's the next thing you might consider. God doesn't have a prescribed method for interpreting the Bible. Any methodology at all is based on some person's idea of how it should be done. I believe every methodology is designed to lead you to someone's conclusion, which may or may not be the conclusion that God wants you to have. I believe that if you approach bible study with that in mind, your mind is allowed to accept or reject, and that's ok. What I finally ended up doing was making a clean break from the offshoot. I headed back to school where I was forced to take a couple of humanities courses. These courses presented the era of pre and early Christianity very differently than what I thought I knew. That led me to looking at a historian's view of Christianity, which I chose to do with books written by and college level courses taught by Bart Erhman. I started studying philosophy, psychology, critical thinking, reasoning, and religion, including the study of religion along with world religions. I now read from a number of different viewpoints and methodologies. I believe I have benefited from enlarging my resources. Now when I go back and read TWI and offshoot writings, it is very clear how each organization is trying to lead people to its conclusion. That is not to say that I have come to believe all of the theology taught by TWI and offshoots is wrong. What I have come to believe is that a big part of it is for no other reason than to create division and arrogance. The one thing I noticed when in the offshoot was the initial feeling of freedom and the ability to explore other beliefs in an open and inviting environment, or so I believed. By the time I left, that was no longer possible. I was in a position where I could see the drafts of how the organization expected the local fellowships to function and what it would take to be involved, and I was appalled. I don't know what was actually adopted and what was not, but what I read was frightening. I couldn't support it, and that was while I was still able to appreciate the mindset. Now that no checks and balances exist (at least within that group) I can only imagine what it is like, but I know it was bad enough with the few checks and balances in place, that I could no longer support it. Being in the offshoot delayed the inevitable for me. I left TWI for a number of reasons. One of those was the idea that you could be trained to be more spiritual. While in the beginning we were treated as though we were on more of a level playing field, the reality was these leaders liked the basis of TWI, and the only reason many of them were gone was because they were fired. All they want to do is "improve" on TWI, where the underlying presumption that TWI's premises, theology, and practice is sound. This invariably led to the introduction of "classes" and "training" that was touted as "breakthrough training," but was actually nothing more than training designed to break you and fill you with its garbage. When people protested, they took it underground, but it's still alive. This kind of thing is going on in all of the offshoots to some degree. The point I'm trying to make is that you can plop yourself into one of the offshoots and feel like you're right at home. That is not a good thing, because the real reason why you left is still alive and thriving in the offshoot. It may not be noticeable right away; after all you've been conditioned to accept many things at face value and so those things become a comfortable friend even as they work against you, but the reason is there. Please just think about it.

Then perhaps I stand corrected. My experience is that many Christian business people expect me to do business with them because they say they are Christian, and accept they are ethical because they say they are Christian, not because of anything they do.

Most religious organizations do not give you any room to question the authorities in an open forum and everyone knows that, so they don't expect it. BUT, TWI never set itself up as a religious organization. It was supposed to be a RESEARCH and TEACHING ministry. I have no idea what went on at a WIB conference, but I have an idea that it was more around learning how to present the correct facade in a business environment to get people to sign a green card, because by 1982 I was aware of a lack of ethics in leadership, so I can't imagine they were teaching ethics. TWI, IMO, was actually hostile to the concept of growing a business due to the time it takes to do that. Heck it was hard enough to work full time for someone else and devote the time to TWI that they wanted and actually have a life outside of TWI (which I later understood why it was like that), much less do God's (TWI) work and build a business. Anyway, TWI kinda opened Pandora's box by pretending it wanted to hear questions, which kind of made it hard for LCM. He was really pretty transparent from the get-go.

Ironically, much of the education in the Hebrew culture throughout history involves the study and questioning of scripture through the Midrash.

Money handling at STFI has always been on the loosey-goosey side. Someone would leave and there would be checks found that had never been deposited. I always felt that the books should be handled by a bookkeeper and for a while, they were. The bookkeeper spent about a year reorganizing all the accounting so that an accountant could make sense of the books. This presented some problems. Because the finances were now intelligible and someone who actually knew what could be expensed was handling the books, irregularities were being questioned. People in the home office were not happy. A finance committee was put together and they found even more problems. What happened after that can only be described as "characteristic". The bookkeeper was let go and someone with no financial background was put into the slot. The finance committee had a list of things that needed to be changed - nothing spectacular, but 18 months later, not one suggestion was put into place. STF has only had 1 person in its entire history that has had any kind of financial training at all. What does this mean? Maybe that ignorance is bliss. The argument can be made that the current CEO has been a successful businessman. That depends on what you define as "successful". By his own admission, he got into some trouble building that success. I don't know how that experience plays out in a religious organization, but the truth is that there is little in the way of accountability and they like it like that. There is the appearance of accountability, but if you know anything about reviews, they are not audits, much less fraud audits. In the day-to-day accounting processes, they continue to be handled by someone who has no financial training. But let's get into how money is spent. When I was there, nearly $800 a month was spent on keyword internet marketing - basically enough to support a Philippine family for a year. The reason why I bring this up is that trips to the Philippines netted a fair number of new followers who were promptly targeted for beatings and ejected from their homes and their jobs. Yet STFI did little or nothing to help these people after they "set them free". In true TWI fashion, any income that came in was used to promote STFI to new people, not help those who were already in, even though STFI was practically pastoral in comparison to TWI. The other problem with this internet marketing tactic was that most search engine optimization can (and I believe should) be organic. In other words you write copy in such a way that the site naturally rises to the top of where you want it to be and you get people to link to you - and you to them. If you do it right, you should never have to spend a dime on SEO, much less spend $800 a month on keyword advertising. I was alarmed about this in 2004 and felt that it was a poor use of money. Postage was a huge part of expenditures back in those days. Since I'm not on the mailing list, I have no idea how much they're spending and how they are doing it now, but when I was there, everything was sent first class. Even when I showed them how much money could be saved by sorting and sending bulk, it fell on deaf ears. Instead they went out and rented a postage machine. I think the problem lies in the TWI carryover mindset. Money is used to promote the product. People are not hired on the basis of ability. People are hired who buy into the whole mindset with the whole idea that they can be trained to perform a job (the way they want it done, not the way it probably should be done). Anyone, anyone, anyone who has questioned the methods or suggests that there might be a better way is shut out. That is my experience and observation. I have no reason to believe that has changed since my exit.