Tzaia

Then it wasn't exactly a stumble. Really? Lives are not like pieces of paper where you scratch out a word, replace it, and move forward. These "mistakes" affected lives at a number of levels. Those issues have not been addressed. Until that happens all "correction" much less the notion they suffered to correct mistakes is just a bunch of happy talk. It might (and I say "might" because there's no real proof that anything of any magnitude has changed) be that you simply aren't in it deep enough to know whether these things exist. Here's the beginning of the slippery slope... Based upon the previous statement, I think it's more honest to say that you use logical fallacy. Besides, most 25 year old's mental processes aren't mature enough to accurately predict future outcomes - particularly males. You haven't said anything to suggest that you are the exception. That is true. One of the best decisions I ever made was to release myself from the error that passed for research and logic taught in TWI (regardless of the edition).

I read that book shortly before I left TWI and was intrigued by the irony of what I bolded above. All structures (religious or otherwise) have a degree of those qualities. At the time, I found Walter Martin's book to be just as intolerant, close-minded, and dogmatic. My issue with TWI was and is the lack of balance and the inability to achieve balance in such a system without a fairly significant level of persecution.

Don't flatter yourself.

Welcome. I managed to keep my curious and questioning mind during my time in TWI and an offshoot, but was still astounded at how much I wouldn't let myself go "there" (wherever that might be) until I came here.

Melissa Scott is wildly entertaining to watch and seems to take herself quite seriously, but I've not been able to ever catch her "bring the Concorde in for a landing" any time I've ever watched her show.

Me neither.

I'm nobody and I want to know

I'm reading "A History of God" and rather enjoying it.

...which is a moot point once you get there never was a "hedge of protection."

A "rational" belief is a relatively new entry into the arena of belief. All TWI (and splinters) are doing is trying to put their logical spin on something that utterly defies logic - only they seem to be unaware of the futility of the exercise. The idea that you can use scripture to learn the essence of God is crazy - if you think about it. And if you haven't noticed - people got a little crazy trying to do it.

I haven't stepped foot in the offices since early 2005 and have had virtually no contact with anyone within the home office - my choice. The irony about this whole thing is that my last contact involved one of them "thanking" me for what I had done for CES, so I asked about how things were going. I got the whole things are better than ever - only to find out they've been doing a slow meltdown pretty much the entire time. I'm not sure how that could qualify as "better than ever" unless the person who told me that is seriously deluded. It could be karma - I don't know. What I do detect is that they are hurting for cash. They, like TWI, have a fair amount of international "followers" that have NO idea how screwed up things are in the home office, but they also don't have any money. The people who have written partner testimonies sound like they are ex-TWI. I would imagine that this podcast is directed to them because he used language and references that would convict the ex-TWI-but-has-never-mentally-left mindset. Things are going to devolve at STF-I because DG is trying to become the BMOC that he never was in TWI (ala VPW), and JWS has never taken a serious inventory of his beliefs received from TWI. Furthermore, this is a guy who wrote a whole NT because the one(s) we have do not fit his theology and he believes his theology is the one correct theology in all the theologies out there. What I find fascinating about him is that in all his study at TWI HQ in the research department, he never got that adultery/fornication thing until he "really started looking into it". I was astounded when he told me that in 1987. Because of that, I have taken his approach to study and research with a kosher grain of salt and have found that he values his own opinion above anyone else's - regardless of how uninformed that opinion might be. Why would anyone in their right mind support this "ministry"? Seriously.

What reality do you think I'm not coping with?

I will take this further to say that people are probably giving - and giving a lot - just not to STF-I. It's not just that the people at STF-I lack character, self-awareness, meekness, and humility, it's that they are missing the boat in how Jesus wanted money, time, and effort utilized. I'm done giving money to an organization where most of it is used for administrative purposes. Since it isn't doing anything that remotely resembles "church" or "missions" where does this money go that benefits anyone outside the "home" office?

I'm inclined to think that you have a lot more of the mentality than I - mainly because your assumptions about others.

Not sure what that means, but I'll trade the phrase "better equipped" for the word able to make it less TWI-ish sounding.

STF's beliefs are more along the lines of the Jewish faith that evolved over time, which is a bodily resurrection when a messiah comes. That is why Jews don't cremate. It's all pure speculation anyway - eternal life - when it happens. No one knows.

I thought it was boring. Now that I've actually done college-level coursework in religion and biblical studies, I find the "class" clearly lacking in background. I was involved fairly heavily with STF from its inception until 2005. I used to think that what was taught was fairly accurate - it meshed with many of my beliefs (considering that many of my beliefs found their way into their books as I spoke with the head guys often), but as they will be quick to point out, relationships will suffer if there's a deviation from what they believe. I started pulling away from what I used to believe and found they could be incredibly harsh and judgmental - in the name of "speaking the truth in love". I have been accused of being possessed and from what I understand, there were some not-so-flattering prophecies spoken about me. It's just something I think we can all do without.

Let's clarify a few things People did those things to children either because they thought they were "doing the word" or because they were sadists. They weren't "doing the word" at least according to any commonly understood standard. I think you need to ask yourself whether what happened to you was due to misdirection or because someone actually enjoyed inflicting harm on you. I do think intent counts. I am unaware of anyone (here) who (openly) thinks that what happened to children was the children's fault or due to a lack of believing. If that's what's being said in private, it's because they are too cowardly to say it out loud and that should speak loudly as to the character of those people and how much weight their comments should have. Just because someone says something doesn't automatically give it credibility. If someone here thinks that what happened to the children is alright, they need to come out and enlighten all of us, because I and many others didn't think so back then, and we certainly don't think so now, but I'm willing to hear the argument before I tell them in great detail just how screwed up I think their thinking is. What happened to you is in the past, which cannot be undone. Many of us have some sort of past we are trying to make sense of. I think the reason why your experience seems particularly heinous is that all of this was supposed to ease human suffering when all it did was add to it. There is a certain sense of feeling cheated, but then again the reality is that life carries no guarantees despite TWI's assertions to the contrary. TWI promised a lot of things it could not deliver. People did and do believe it anyway, because they want to or they think they need to. All these things that happened don't have to be a roadmap to your future. I have visited many places and decided I never wanted to go there again. Other places get visited many times. I think it's possible to do the same thing with the past. Some people do that by never talking about it. Some people revisit the subject until the feelings aren't so raw. I think it depends on the subject which way you choose. Another thing I think you need to consider is whether something deserves a place as a life-defining moment. I tend to see the mistakes my parents made as a lesson in what not to do. It appears as though you've made good friends and good relationships outside of TWI, which is good. Maybe you need to focus on that right now and wait to deal with some of the stuff that comes up here when you're better equipped. It sounds like you are starting to practice mindfulness, but if you aren't, you might try it.

He resigned in 2005 rather than be fired. He was brought back part-time and was then fired in December 2008. None of us were at the meeting to explain their actions, so we don't really know why he was fired. I would assume his getting back with E had something to do with it.

No. That claim was crap.

I would imagine it was probably because of the occult connotation. Unless someone has a title trademarked, titles can be and are repeated. When I suggested early on that the "law of believing" was similar to things I had learned as part of the occult, I was told that wasn't possible. IMO, the only difference is thinking you are manipulating God to do your will instead of the cosmos. There are several areas that TWI deviated from standard "law of attraction" "magic of believing" practices, but the biggest (IMO) was a disregard for common sense. I will never forget the big backlash a few believers had when it came to the new child restraint laws - that putting their children in restraints would somehow work against their believing. Or the woman who thought believing would cure her Type I diabetes, so she didn't take care of herself and died of a stroke at 43. Or the people who continued to smoke and "believed" that their lungs would stay clear. Or that someone's believing (or lack thereof) was causing problems in someone else's world. Then you have the guy who was blind from birth married to the woman with CP who were obviously "lacking" somewhere in the believing department despite the fact that he had a better job than most of us and a nice house (paid for in full) and car (paid for in full that sat unused because his wife was too afraid to learn how to drive). I personally don't think that the "law of believing" was or is complete balderdash. What I do think is that it was grossly misunderstood and misapplied throughout TWI - as was grace. The greatest misapplication being the tendency to tie it to the tithe and abundant sharing, especially since it was touted for working for "saint and sinner alike".

It sounded like a rant. Might I make a suggestion? Let people speak for themselves. If they don't want to, then don't presume that it's your job to do it for them. They can continue to try and try to find their voice and perhaps you will understand that you aren't going to make that happen by insisting that it's our fault that whoever it is hasn't found their voice.

If you were doing anything not sanctioned by TWI, it was "carnal" or "natural man" which was "bondage." The only way one could truly be "free" was by doing what someone else in TWI wanted you to do because chances are that your choices would be carnal.

Yeah, rough day. As if you've never ever had one of those days where you've had a burr up your butt and ranted for no reason that anyone else can determine. You know - like the opening post of this thread. A few of us are trying to look past the rants and see what's going on behind the words.