Tzaia

I think you're overthinking things.

God never told me to go WoW, or take the advanced class, or go to corps, or have way people move in with me. Apparently he told a bunch of other people (all of them in the way) all those things, but I never heard from God. In fact, every time I even considered it, a bunch of reasons why none of those things would really work for me, bubbled to the surface even as I was being told to ignore those reasons by people in the way. Ironically, I was told by several people (in the way) that it wasn't a good idea for me to marry my (now) husband. However, he was delivered to my doorstep just like I asked God to do. That was "our" secret handshake that would let me know that God had sent the person and not just wishful thinking on my part. I figured it wasn't a coincidence, since it happened exactly like that. People in the way continually questioned my ability to hear from God in my own life, yet never questioned their own ability to hear from God on my behalf.

:)

You bring up a good point. Much was written about all the stuff he did before, but once he converted most of that behavior just went away. He was a changed man. Radical conversion. Well except for that incident with Barnabas over John Mark. No blame was assigned. I read one commentary about it being ok because it wasn't a doctrinal dispute, rather it was a falling out over a difference of opinion. Really? One of the things I've noticed about human nature is the tendency to overlook the bad in someone that is liked, respected, or admired and overlook the good in someone that is detested. What he did was call out and ordain people who agreed with him, encouraged people to shun and avoid people who didn't agree with him, tell people how to run their fellowships, what to teach, what to wear, how to live - all by the presumed authority given to him by Jesus himself - whom he never met in life. People just did it, ironically on the basis of Barnabas' testimony about Paul. The same thing happened in TWI. It had to since TWI patterned itself after the first century church (more accurately Paul's church). I'm not saying that Paul was bad, or anything like that. What I am saying is that we (as a species) were bestowed with the ability to be mindful, and I believe* we need to practice that at all times. * added in editing

I doubt if CES made much, if anything from momentus. And whatever they did make ended up costing them in terms of active supporters with open wallets. JAL has no reason to lie either way. Either he offered the money or he didn't. If he did offer it - no big deal. If he didn't offer it - no big deal. However Barnyard's taking it or not taking it was a big deal. Obviously the guy was trying to make a point. What Dave is telling you is that JAL wouldn't have offered the money because he didn't go along with Barnyard's theology. I'm saying that even if he did, the likelihood that he had $100k just laying around when he was working out of his family room is almost non-existent. And even if he did like the theology and had $100,000, he wouldn't have offered it to barnyard. JAL doesn't do stuff like that. He's more of a receiving end kind of guy. He has no qualms asking for money, or letting people do things for him.

Jeff - JAL lived by "the can" for most of the time he was involved with CES. While I wouldn't call him poor, I can't imagine that he ever had that kind of money, and I know CES would not hand out that kind of money to anyone, much less to build a church when CES was being operated out of JAL's family room - sun room at the time. Later, CES bought a house converted into an office around 1999-2000 and there was barely enough money to do that. I don't know how many people ended up taking momentus, but I don't recall seeing a cash flow coming from momentus into CES. I had intimate contact with those records. I did ask JAL one time what was in it for him, because I assumed that someone was receiving some sort of commission, because while momentus was technically "free," there was a great push at the end to donate with a suggested amount starting at $450 (if I'm not mistaken). I never got an answer on that, which was one of the many reasons why I never did momentus. I wouldn't put it past JAL to push momentus because it was an income opportunity for him, but I also know that he really believes that he benefited from it. I think your Vic told that story to increase his credibility. How many of you actually followed up by asking JAL? Probably no one. I just think it was really convenient that Vic turned down $100,000. Don't you? Anyway, I don't know your Vic guy, but I do know JAL. He's not a scheming liar kind of guy. He's more the kind of guy who gets sucked into stuff and then uses his influence to suck others into whatever he's involved with.

geish - there is merit to the message from Paul - for the most part. It's the god-breathed part that is suspect. For instance, do we as women refrain from cutting our hair because of something Paul said? I can think of 3 Christian denominations off the top of my head that demand that women not cut their hair - based on that one scripture. Women serving in a leadership capacity - I think Paul said something about that in what - 2 places? That's good enough for several mainstream denominations to exclude women from ordination and eldership. On the other hand, how many have excluded themselves from leadership based on the letter to Timothy? Not that many. How convenient. Clearly he says many things that are worth listening to and living by. The problem is where to draw the line. The problem has always been where to draw the line. It's pretty hard to find that sweet spot where to draw the line when someone thinks that everything that he wrote down and said is as though it came right from god's mouth. Paul had his detractors. We don't know who they were or what they preached, but the truth is that it probably wasn't much different than what we experienced in TWI when VPW died and others looked to unseat Craig by sending out letters like the PoP and the 37 page letter from the people who eventually formed CES. TWI wasn't successful in destroying the letters and what was written caused some people to question TWI and eventually caused a lot of damage. Paul didn't get into what was being taught by these detractors, only that it was being done and not to believe them - sorta like what TWI did. I bet that more than a few left over the disagreements. Just like we left. One has to go outside the "bible" to find out what some of the differences were. Then people did whatever they could do to destroy those teachings that didn't agree with Paul. Those that weren't destroyed were hid away - buried and forgotten about, until someone dug them up. We have no idea what else is out there. Then we have the problem of people who did agree with Paul, but didn't agree with what Paul meant. This is parallel to what is taking place in TWI and STF right now. There are no discussions in scripture about Paul's weaknesses - only that he had some. The truth is that we really don't know the content of his character and I personally believe what we do have is a highly sanitized version of who he was, and that is because a few someones made a decision about what to include well before there was any "canon" of scripture; well before any of the words were considered "holy". The idea that god had a hand in that process is just that - an idea, and I believe it's mainly to discourage people from having these kinds of conversations. But I think we need to remember that it isn't a fact. Amazingly enough, the canon of scripture really wasn't regarded as "god breathed" until well after the decisions were made. Conversely, the Jewish bible has never been regarded as god-breathed to the Jews. It is continually under scrutiny. I happen to think that the scrutiny is healthy.

In my twig, the only family that didn't own their own home was the twig leader. They were also the only ones who paid cash for their cars. I figured it was a choice - and treated it like one. We were encouraged to live debt free, but if there was a demand, we didn't pay any attention.

ummm, yeah, it's not just you.

Crap - now I'm going to have to break out that program that lets you put in a few letters and then writes whatever you've defined by those letters out.

For being an intelligent guy - he wasn't all that smart.

The truth is that unless one is the person that is being referred to is here and talking, pretty much everything else is speculation or rumor. The woman was in for a grand total of 4 years. We don't know when those 4 years took place. We don't know about her level of involvement during those 4 years. We don't know what precipitated her exit. We don't know how that information was transferred to the newspaper. We do know that mentioning a religious cult gets people's attention. It appears to be largely anecdotal as was her music and prior marriage. The guy obviously had some money, or at least liked to spend money. He owed the IRS interest and penalties. The issue wasn't being resolved to his satisfaction, so he plowed his airplane into a building killing himself and another person, leaving his wife to deal with the aftermath, who happened to be in TWI for 4 years at an undisclosed time. Not a one of us admits to having known her or her situation, so it's not as though she was all that important in TWI-land. I don't think one had anything to do with the other, and we (of all people) should take care when we speculate about other people's former involvement in TWI.

I don't know what the NYT was intimating. I knew of several ex-Way who actively practiced tax evasion; a whole bunch who were active conspiracy theorists; and a few who were regulars at the local prophecy club. Not a one of them was a woman. However, she was divorced - not exactly a rarity, and a piano teacher, which could be rarer than having been in TWI. Not sure what any of that has to do with her husband slamming a plane in a building, other than she may not be known for making good choices. I guess the question is if her bad choices had anything to do with his choice.

Dooj - you're giving him far too much credit. I didn't know JAL when he was in TWI. I knew his parents and siblings. Just based on my observation and being around his mom and dad, I think he was groomed from an early age to believe that he was destined for greatness. How he got sucked into the whole TWI thing is beyond me, but I think a lot of it had to do with this need to stand out. He would have never stood out at the church he was raised in because it is such an affluent church filled with very affluent and influential people who are also very low-key and don't do bombastic. TWI provided the vehicle for him to stand out and be his bombastic self, and my understanding is that he didn't have to try very hard for that to happen. He told me one time that he thought only about 30% of the doctrine taught in TWI was wrong. I told him I thought it was closer to 70% and that was before I really looked at it. He's operated on the premise that at the root of TWI is good. Many here disagree with that. He continues to build on that basic premise - that 70% is worth holding onto. That, and the fact that he has never seriously looked into anything that didn't have a whole lot of crazy behind it - like momentus and personal prophecy. This is what has largely shaped his theological and world view. He's very attracted to stuff that is outside the realm of orthodox because orthodoxy doesn't fuel the fundamentalist flame so much. He's always on the alert for that one thing that will set him apart from the pack, never getting the vibe that perhaps he shouldn't go there. He doesn't seem to have a filter in place that would warn him about people. Dan T (momentus) set off all sorts of red flags for me, as did JB and DG. JAL didn't see it at all - and still doesn't, to a certain extent. What has never happened is for him to take a step back and seriously revisit everything he believes to be true about God and religion. But that's just the way he is. While he's the one that's out there - for now, I find him far less threatening because he just doesn't do covert. I don't believe he ever saw his demise at CES coming. I don't know who else warned him about what was going on at CES, but it was clear that he was determined to listen to the people who were actually out to get him. Even when I talked to him the last time, it was clear that he really doesn't know who his enemies are. And unfortunately, when JAL thinks he's right, there's no amount of pointing out the facts that will convince him otherwise. I imagine that JAL will go to his grave with his current thinking intact - as long as he finds sufficient supporters to keep him funded.

Because Indiana was incredibly racist at the time. People can say what they will about Jim Jones and his motives, but that guy did more for race relations than any other person in the state of Indiana before and since. It is a damn shame that he disintegrated the way he did, because while he was here, he did a lot of good. People don't remember that. They just remember the crazy.

First in Indiana - it was a big deal at the time. Really big deal.

Maybe - I don't know. He doesn't like forums - never has. It used to be that all one had to deal with were the die-hard trinitarians. Now the field is open wide to people who *might* have been theologically and perhaps even philosophically on the same page at one time, yet are no longer. He really doesn't get why people are upset or have turned away from what he believes is true.

JAL's heart has always been with TWI. Most of his time, effort, and energy went into calling and writing people (mostly corp - mainly because that's who he knew) who were in or who had recently left. There were a fair number of people who stopped involvement once R@lph left. The next biggest wave left because of Momentus. I have no idea what the effect of personal prophecy had on the numbers as I had pretty much ignored that whole thing, but it was the reason for my exit from doing work. JAL has pretty much defined his ministry as being for those that he deems worthy of his trust. I think he's gotten it backwards, but then again there's been this whole loyalty thing going on all along and now nobody really knows who to believe. The irony in all this is that DG was being brought on to fix things. I can't imagine that a one of these people (the Johns & Mark) ever thought that "fixing" CES/STF would involve firing two of the major players. That was the plan all along. I just didn't think they would be able to pull it off.

I was never all that sold out and that served as a sort of protection against all the stuff that went on. It was hard at the time because I didn't buy into the whole thing, so apart from that 15% that was being given, we were dead weight as it was never enough - in terms of time - in terms of doing - in terms of anything. It got old - very quickly.

Not exactly sure how it works - just know you're not on the right track. He has an SAT business and ongoing relationships with schools.

That's his paying job. He recruits kids to take the SAT class.

Jeff - I met VPW a little over a year after my first visit to a twig fellowship, PFAL, and a little over a month after I got married. In 1980, I went to a limb meeting with my husband, an AC grad, college wow, and former twig leader. I was out in the lobby going to the little girl's room when VPW was moving across the room. I was with a friend talking and he approached us. He looked at me just like we were standing in a singles bar, and held my hand a bit too long. I had seen that look before, and had that lingering hand before. I went back to my seat and told my husband that VPW was a lecherous old man. He thought my insight was ridiculous. From that point forward, my radar was up. I don't have to be in a situation where I'm in complete agreement. As long as we were left alone, I didn't really care. The events of 1987 seemed to be a logical stopping point and I was able to say, "I told you so" to my husband. I don't know about Paul having victims aplenty. There was fall-out. It appears he and Barnabus had a falling out. It does happen - even to the best of people.

I understand that, but what he says is taken as being anti-woman and used against women when it comes to holding positions of authority.

A lot of what Paul said did not "fly" as it was so outside the realm of the common Judean understanding of God. It didn't necessarily agree with new-found Christianity, either. I think quite a few of VPW's oneliners were pretty good. The only question is whether they were really his oneliners or someone else's. A common problem is giving someone's words more weight because of who they are. I think the question needs to be asked what that person has done to deserve influence in your life. There is nothing wrong with maintaining a healthy skepticism. That was where so many went wrong. There was/is nothing healthy about how that man was/is regarded. And it wouldn't matter what he had or hadn't done behind closed doors to deserve or not deserve it. You've gone from revering the man to him making you sick. He really doesn't deserve that much energy. For me, the man was never all that. He definitely had a presence about him, but he was also creepy. I got that vibe the first time I had a conversation with him. Paul - I don't know. I am less inclined to believe that everything he did or wrote on behalf of Jesus was necessarily inspired. I refuse to be held hostage by someone else's unproven assertions. Sure Paul's statements have been misconstrued. The lack of women in positions of leadership in some denominations comes from words right out of Paul's mouth. Women don't cut their hair because of Paul. The treatment of homosexuals in the church is another example.

I pulled an interesting quote today from a website. "Is it not too often the case that the whole life and worship of the congregation revolves round the personality of the minister? He is the one who is in the center; he offers the prayers of the congregation; he it is who mediates "truth" through his personality, and he it is who mediates between the people and God through conducting the worship entirely on his own. Nowhere is this more apparent than in the case of the popular minister where everything centers on him, and the whole life of the congregation is built round him. What is that but Protestant sacerdotalism, sacerdotalism which involves the displacement of the Humanity of Christ by the humanity of the minister, and the obscuring of the Person of Christ by the personality of the minister? How extraordinary that Protestantism should thus develop a new sacerdotalism, to be sure a psychological rather than a sacramental sacerdotalism, but a sacerdotalism nonetheless, in which it is the personality of the minister which both mediates the Word of God to man and mediates the worship of man to God! Protestant Churches are full of these "psychological priests" and more and more they evolve a psychological cult and develop a form of psychological counseling which displaces the truly pastoral ministry of Christ. How frequently, for example, the minister's prayers are so crammed with his own personality (with all its boring idiosyncrasies!) that the worshipper cannot get past him in order to worship God in the name of Christ — but is forced to worship God in the name of the minister! How frequently the sermon is not an exposition of the Word of God but an exposition of the minister's own views on this or that subject! And how frequently the whole life of the congregation is so built up on the personality of the minister that when he goes the congregation all but collapses or dwindles away!" Unfortunately, most of the people who departed from TWI to start their own thing, did not take away just how personality-based the whole TWI thing was and continues to be. Perhaps he should heed the words of John Robinson when he said: "Brethren, we are now erelong to part asunder, and the Lord knoweth whether I shall live ever to see your faces more; but whether the Lord hath appointed that or not, I charge you before God and His blessed angels to follow me no farther than I have followed Christ. If God should reveal anything to you by any other instrument of His, be as ready to receive it as you ever were to receive any truth by my ministry; for I am very confident that the Lord hath more truth and light yet to break forth out of His Holy Word. For my part, I cannot sufficiently bewail the condition of the Reformed churches, who are come to a period in religion, and will go no farther than the instruments of their reformation. The Lutherans cannot be drawn to go any farther than what Luther saw, and the Calvinists, you see, stick fast where they were left by that great man of God, who yet saw not all things. This is a misery much to be lamented; for though they were burning and shining lights in their time, yet they penetrated not into the whole counsel of God, but were they now living, would be as willing to embrace further light as that which they first received. I think that if you think you already have the truth, that you stop looking.