Tzaia

Anderson has become far more "liberal" in its teaching in the last 20 or so years - since dropping College from its name and taking on University. I know a number of people who have attended and some found the liberalness of the campus sufficient reason to go elsewhere.

Steve is at Anderson University, Anderson, IN. It's a "Church of God" affiliated university (which is along the lines (doctrinally) of an "Assemblies of God")

Firstly - I semi listened to the Old Testament Yale Courses on YouTube last week. What I gleaned was interesting. The Jews have never thought the OT was "god breathed". Even the giving of the law was dynamic in that the first giving differed from the second. That's the reason why the hebrew scriptures are argued over and over and over. Then there's that "jot and tiddle" thing. Apparently the scribes weren't all that perfect in their copying. Largely accurate, but not like VPW claimed. And they accept that and move on. Then one of my pastors commented about the scriptural "tension" over things that outright contradicted other things. I thought it was an interesting way of looking at things. What I've concluded is that scriptures have taken on a meaning of their own - outside the original intent and purpose.

Duh, wordwolf. Now I see that. The only one I've ever found was Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults (or something like that). Pretty stock stuff and fairly mean spirited. Not "scholarly". I would not imagine that you can get a scholarly take on TWI in particular. You want to see how it compares to orthodox Christianity?

The "household" analogy went even further as to where in the house of the household would you be found. I figured I would be in the bathroom. Most aimed for the kitchen. VPW picked the bedroom. <== semi kidding.

That would really involve TWI submitting articles for peer review. I can say with almost 100% certainty that never happened.

The TWIt people were good at telling us peons that if they ever discovered their research was in error they would adjust. There were several times I had questions and was immediately shut down with the admonition to take "the class" again. I thought that CES was going to be different. When JAL told me he thought that 70% of the TWI doctrine was correct, I countered with 30%. Now I think it's around 5%. Anyway, I started having long conversations with a former pastor who actually has a PhD from THE Princeton Theological Seminary, and we talked through the whole dispensation theology. I STILL wasn't convinced until I started the whole historical-critical method, which has ultimately steered me away from the Bible being "god breathed" at all.

I didn't do Momentus. My hubby and I discussed it, but what killed it for both of us was the 4 page hold harmless agreement, followed by the putting our weekend (and to find out our lives) in the hands of the untrained. JAL tried to convince me that it was no big deal, but the change in the behavior of the people who had attended, coupled with the "revelations" that were rehearsed, made me very nervous about what the weekend was all about. In my opinion, the real fool is the person who never gets it even when they are confronted with facts. The one thing I do know about you is that you are willing to consider you were wrong and you can disagree without becoming abusive. I respect that. I have run into a few who treat the weekend like it was no big deal - and maybe it wasn't for them - but all of us knows at least one person who ended up in a stress center after their weekend. Thankfully it was not me.

At some point in time I learned that none of the gospels were confirmed eyewitness accounts. Then I learned they were written after the letters. I might have learned that sooner had I read something other than the bible and TWIT lit. I don't know about anyone else, but those two tidbits and the fact that they weren't supplied by the greatest ministry since the first century made me wonder about ANYONE who does not use several angles when it comes to study. But I am going to assume that doing so might shed a light that might best be kept off (as in one might discover one was wrong about what one teaches). I don't know. What I find amazing is that the testimony and teaching of someone who never met the guy and who wasn't taught by anyone who had was given...well...more importance than the guy who was the reason for the whole movement.

Well at least JS is "honest" about why he wrote the REV. He wanted a NT that most accurately reflected his doctrine.Obviously, none of the other versions does the job. It would be interesting if he were to submit his work for peer review.

There are a lot of "systematic" methodologies for studying scripture. Every last one of them are designed to bring the student to a particular conclusion, which can only happen using that methodology; not to a conclusion which is self evident. That was the lie of PFAL and all the offshoots - that their method was the most honest and reliable for getting to the "truth". It truly is subjective. For instance, I started using the historical-critical method back in 2008 or so, and that's when I started losing any "faith" in the accuracy of the bible, or that it was god-breathed at all. I've determined that the bible is a complete hot mess if you look at it critically. All the focus on "end times" is just another way of trying to explain why we live in the world we do, but what is particularly distressing about it is the focus on the utter destruction of the people who either haven't heard the "good news" or have rejected it. The notion that one who is "antichrist" is someone automatically evil and in need of eternal torment and burning just blows my mind now. But they jump on that wagon with glee in that somehow they will be spared or rewarded in the eternal. I haven't noticed that a one of them has been spared ANYTHING and no one has been able to confirm the eternal rewards system. What I HAVE noticed in the here and now is a lot of division, broken relationships, and heartache over words written on paper. I feel about the bible like I do hotel pools since taking a pool chemistry course. I avoid them because the people who take "care" of them generally don't have a clue.

I don't want to be the one to point out the obvious, but when an entity calls itself is named The Living Truth fellowship, there is a suggestion that whoever thought up that name believes they are in possession of THE truth, which then assumes that others are not. Some of us think that's arrogant. I suggested to JAL that naming the fellowship that was arrogant. When you start out there, it's pretty hard not to at least be perceived as confrontational. Anyway, some of us have worked through all of this and we find the whole JAL doing the same thing...again...humorous...or sad...or whatever. I've known JAL for over 30 years; I know knew his parents; his child; his siblings; his wives. I worked with him, ate with him, and "fellowshipped" with him. He is a magnet for the weird. Momentus, personal prophecy, every crazy foot a.s.s thing that came along. He disdained the relative normal of his [privileged, Presbyterian] upbringing in favor of the crazy presented by VPW and then Graeser, Schoenheit, and lastly Gallagher. Ralph was one of a list of people who tried to knock some sense into Schoeinheit and especially JAL regarding the Graesers. When I asked what was up with Ralph and Sue and Robert, it was a dismissal of all of them being "deceived". Not a one of them JAL, et al, have even considered that they just might be prone to being deceived and Ralph (et al) were just early observers of the beginnings of crazy part II and got out. When we parted ways I felt nothing but relief as I had come to see that CES/STFI was nothing but a hotbed of ugliness wrapped up in the warm fuzziness of fake "Christian love". I had been in and out of the office since 1993, but for around 2 months I worked in the home office one day a week which happened to be during all the personal prophecy business. That's when I discovered personal prophecy was used to make relationship and business decisions - one of which resulted in JAL's second divorce and several business decisions that were - for want of a better word - stupid. I learned they were serious about this personal prophecy thing just as they were serious about Momentus - you know - the "Christian" retreat that came complete with a 4 page "hold harmless" agreement that JAL convinced about 800 of his closest friends was the fast track to spiritual nirvana. It was this continual attraction to the outlandish and the inevitable drama that finally got my attention and when I tried (probably as Ralph did) to have a rational conversation about the direction they were going and was met with exasperation that I would even question their infinite wisdom...well it was time to make my exit. I talked to Ralph and he confirmed what I had figured out. People left because it was just a continuation of the old thinking with a few tweaks. If that's what you want - fine. It's not for me.

Assuming all (without exception or without distinction ;-)) of us remained Christian. Not that I think doing those things is wrong. I just find that people who ought to be doing those things themselves think it necessary to point out when they think others aren't.

Yes Steve, but it still boils down to following "a" guy who has had outrageous claims made on his behalf that have yet to be proven to have actually happened.

In true hyperdispensationalism, the various sects arising from TWI take the "church of god" thing to a new level. To some degree, only those in "possession of the truth" are truly the "church" - everyone else is deceived and therefore lesser children of god...if that.

Yes, DWBH, the denial factor is still very high.

The irony in in thinking that Christianity is anything but a cult. Seriously. The only difference is the outrageous claims are believed because people (not eye witnesses) (supposedly) wrote them down nearly 2 generations after some guy who claimed he was the son of god died. Since then, every sect that has arisen started out as a cult until it grew or out lasted its crazy leader long enough to keep afloat.

I've gotten around the auto-censor before. I just can't remember how. Oh. Just put periods between the letters. s.h.i.t hot d.a.m.n

Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't get that Seth wants to fight. Just be open about who he is.

Psalm 139:13 For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. (Psa 139:13 ESV) Psalm 139:14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. (Psa 139:14 ESV) If we are to believe the Bible, we are made in the image of "god"; then why does god reject what he made? 16 And the Lord spoke unto Moses, saying, 17 “Speak unto Aaron, saying, ‘Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations who hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. 18 For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, 19 or a man who is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, 20 or crookbacked, or a dwarf, or who hath a blemish in his eye, or hath scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken— 21 no man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the Lord made by fire. He hath a blemish: he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. 22 He shall eat the bread of his God, both of the most holy and of the holy. 23 Only he shall not go in unto the veil nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish, that he profane not My sanctuaries; for I the Lord do sanctify them.’” 24 And Moses told it unto Aaron and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel. So if you are "blemished" in any way, you can't come before god in a priestly capacity . I find this disconcerting as people aren't responsible for most, if not all these imperfections, but god apparently is. Yet he doesn't want what he has made coming before him.

Same thing about CES/STFI. All of the people who thought what they were doing is/was great fall into 2 categories: Kool-aid drinkers, and never been there-ers.

Since I leaned towards amoral/immoral, I thought TWI would free me from the hypocrisy that I felt was rampant in most religious organizations. That notion got kicked to the curb fairly early on. I met my husband, and am grateful for that. Since he had already done the twig leader, WoW, and advanced class, I was spared those things. So beyond the people trying to tell me who to marry, what twig to attend, how to live, it was a great experience right up until the decision to leave.

Definitely an improvement over what it was. Thanks to Raf for the suggestion. Thanks to TeachmeVP for being nice enough to comply. The achingly hard to read part stems from the content, not the formatting.