Tzaia

Thomas - it certainly appears as though VPW could have borrowed from Viola. What else is new? I attend a rather large church that has small groups. I choose not to become involved in a small group. For one thing, I have a limited amount of time and it would be one more thing on an already crowded plate. I have found that small group people tend to hang out with those in their small group, which I think stifles their growth and keeps them comfortable. They tend to pick and choose who will be in their group. I prefer to feel free to float around and get to know a lot of people, even if it is just beyond an acquaintance. The other thing I have pointed out before is that home-church "movements" haven't been sustainable, historically, Nor do they continue to grow. They fizzle and die unless there are frequent large-corporate worship opportunities, and charismatic leadership. TWI used to cite the growth of the church in the first century, when the reality is that there is almost nothing remaining of the home church movement remaining in the area where Paul preached - just as there is almost nothing remaining of the home church movement started by VPW.

I love Ehrman's books. I read most of them after listening/watching all of his lecture series through TTC.

To the best of my recollection, JS did take some courses when he was in NC. Did he get a degree? I don't believe so. MG attended Earlham for at least 2 semesters to receive some sort of credentials, but he was fired. I don't know if he finished or what he is doing now. Nor do I care. The major players who are gone still seem to have contact with some of what is left of the staff. How big of them. Formal training in any normal seminary would pollute their thinking and they just don't get along with Anthony Buzzard anymore.

Well isn't that convenient. He's done a rewrite of the NT to fit his doctrine and he specifically states that on the website.

Ideas can take on a life of their own and not necessarily the life that was intended by the author.

I guess it would be arrogant if I had actually said that, but I didn't. At least not that I'm aware of.:)

Steve - part of the reason why I brought this up was that TWI made out like other denominations were doing Christians (at the very least) a disservice by not acknowledging and addressing these "apparent contradictions" with "the truth"- that there are no contradictions, nor can there be - as that would cause "the whole word to fall apart". It took me a long time to realize what an arrogant (and ridiculous) presumption that was. Five crucified, how many magi, how many times Peter denied Jesus, water baptism, and tongues were relatively harmless. Dispensations were a bit more harmful. What really harmed was the flat out rationalization of leadership authority (Order My Steps in Thy Word) and sexual sin. I believe that it all started with this "the word can't contradict itself and only TWI has unlocked the keys to understanding" nonsense. Must God must be understood "perfectly" in order for us to appreciate his glory, glorify him, and act in a way that reflects his glory? I think that "perfect understanding = a perfect walk" just maybe isn't the necessity Twi made it out to be. Furthermore, TWI's and CES's obsession with jots and tiddles in order to achieve their idea of high truth was at the expense of grace and mercy. The other part of the reason why I brought this up is that my church recently finished the process of dismissal from PCUSA over doctrinal issues. Our interim pastor has been working through a lot of issues, such as contradictions, through his weekly messages. I find the perspective to be fascinating and I'm really happy that I can listen with appreciation instead of listening in order to knock holes into everything he says.

Well when we were told that it either is the word of god or it falls apart...sheesh.

It IS a dance - so to speak - but one that TWI and certain offshoots could not come to terms.

For example: God's sovereignty and man's free will. That - in and of itself - is a contradiction. Yet God is sovereign and we have free will. TWI (and I know for certain that one offshoot) had a terrible time dealing with that one.

I, for one, am grateful that we can have these discussions - complete with disagreement - which is totally the point of why I said what I said. We can disagree. Instead of saying that God is bigger than our understanding could ever possibly be in this life, we are were told that God can't contradict himself - and that any apparent contradictions have explanations - which led allowed them to misrepresent stuff that was certainly not contradictory (like adultery and fornication), make stuff up like God not spitting your way unless you were a 15% of gross giver, and many, many other things. Ultimately it led to a real unhealthy culture of shut the f' up and let someone else think for you.

is IMO the notion that the bible doesn't contradict itself. Really?

Well - since it's structured more like a corporation and less like a church entity, I'd say ordained by man. I don't get why STF bothers to ordain anyone at all.

I have no idea about then. He apparently went off the deep end.

Someone PM'ed me about this and all I can say is that the lack of sound judgment and discernment is still high.

JAL renounced the so-called "Law of Believing" way back in 1987-88. That was one of the first things to go. Obviously, due to the circumstances of his exit from TWI, it had to. People need to remember that JAL's target audience is someone who is in TWI or who has left and still want to live the "glory days" of TWI (back when he was in and a golden boy). LoB might still be an issue to some. Maybe he feels a need to clearly state his position. Up until he was shown the door, TWI (from his perspective) was the greatest thing since canned beer and sliced bread. He has spent the rest of his life so far trying to recreate that synergy (that, IMO, must have peaked about a year before I took PFAL).

Any word on why Mike Patten is no longer on the BOD at STF? He is not on staff, either. If I remember right, he was Dan(the man)'s right hand man.

"Regular" evangelical churches have a name (besides BS) for what was taught by TWI. They call it "license".

I can remember (vaguely) how the JW's were put down because they tweaked the KJV to fit their doctrine - of course the KJV was tweaked to fit trinitarian doctrine - and so on (ad nauseam). My point is that it drove me crazy to be a literalist. The book practically demands a rewrite if one wants to remain one.

JB preferred to work in the "background" as did I (no one ever heard of me outside the home office). He was never part of the "prophetic council" and he didn't claim prophetic abilities, but he was very much involved in getting EL demonized because he did not like her. He was really ticked off because the J's and M would talk to me whenever I called or came by. He thought I had too much influence, and he didn't like that. I think it's the height of arrogance to claim that one has the one correct translation, when it's really nothing more than a rewrite to support one's own doctrine. At least they admit that (in so many words).

I hope you are right. My fear was that some charismatic lunatic would filter to the top and lead everyone off a cliff. Hearing from recent outies has alleviated most of that fear.

I don't know what other plans JB had for STFI other than he wanted JAL gone and MG gone. That happened. I don't know if he moved down to Martinsville when the home office did, but the drive from where he lived to Martinsville would have been brutal. That would have been enough for me to consider other options.He doesn't strike me as being a staying with a sinking ship sort of guy, even if all this was according to his plan. I think he wagered that JAL's exit and MG's exit would somehow ignite the organization into relevance, and when that didn't happen, he chose to move away rather than watch it sink further into oblivion. On the other hand, he might have simply deferred to his wife's wishes to go back home and be normal.

I'm sad that we weren't grown up enough to be self-moderating all the time. It's a hard job to stay unbiased, particularly when it comes to something that was such a big part of many people's lives, but I think you all did a fine job. OFF TOPIC I haven't been here in a while. 3 of my grandkids moved into our house in July, and I'm doing full-time parenting again for children who are significantly delayed. By the end of August, it was clear that I didn't have time to host websites and police my own LISTSERV that had been going for 15 years. I shut it down and moved my web sites to other servers. I wondered if I would miss it, but I'm too busy most days to miss anything about my old life. Good luck you all on your new endeavors.

Perhaps Jeff's departure was because he was at a logical stopping point. All the major damage has been done. What is left to do?