Galen

excathedra: "does anyone here think it's okay for a relative, say an uncle, grandfather, father, to teach a young girl, how to "use" her body sexually ?" No

CoolWaters: "Galen, OK. So much you make a lot of sense about...then you go right into stereotyping." I am sorry, exactly what stereotype did I violate? I do not mean to be argumentative here, just asking. I did not intend to step on your toes. Are you talking about the single-family homne that I mentioned? Heather is a 27 year old mother, with a 12 year old daughter and a 10 year old son. She is single, she is out of work, she routinely stays out all night bar-hopping, She does not hold a full-time job. She has had numerous part-time jobs, but to my knowledge she rarely holds any given job for more than a week. Her 12 year old daughter does 'hope' to drive a convertible at 16 without a blouse on so that she can 'tease' the boys and make them 'chase' her. [those were her own words]. This is not a stereotype, these are my neighbors. When I go to foster-parent support-group meetings [We jsut got home from one as I type this post], other foster-parents work routinely with very similar homes as this.

Rascal- “Steve, I would welcome clarification from Galen....I find it repulsive for him to intimate that ANY normal adult would tolerate, much less consider child molestation if only we were simply *honest*” I apologize.

Steve- “He may have phrased it poorly.” Gee, could be. I must have upset someone. “What he is saying is that you know in yourself whether or not you are capable of being a child molester. That is, if you take an honest look at yourself, can you say that you would not be a child molester? In my case the answer is: I could not be a child molester. Not everyone can answer honestly that way.” I admit that from my own behavior, at one time in my life, I could have been arrested for statutory rape [having sex with an under-age girl]. I could have been convicted and I could possibly be out of prison today as an ex-con rapist, or even child-molester. I certainly would be on these “sex offender” lists. That did not happen to me. Her parents liked me, and realistically they encouraged her seeing me. But it does not change that fact that I violated the law of the land. And I consider such each time that I read about a rapist, or a child-molester. “He's NOT saying that everyone is capable of being child molesters.” I don’t think that I could be capable of anything like that with a pre-pubescent female. But from my own history, I know that post-pubescent ladies I do find attractive. “He IS saying "take an honest look at yourself".” I think, I believe, I know; that there are far more out there, than are on any list of “sex offenders”.

WG- “Golly gee whiz, I KNOW about the male arousal thing! But I do think it starts between the ears.” Well there is a physical arousal. And there is a mental one, but the mental one needs to be controlled. For some that control is difficult, perhaps for others it is not. “I never thought for one minute that Galen was encouraging or condoning child sexual abuse.” Such certainly never entered my mind. [did it sound like I was condoning it? “But I don't agree with his post, okay? It's just my opinion, based on what I've seen happen to more than one child.” Okay.

UH- “No Galen, not all men are attracted to teenage girls. Are the girls pretty? You bet they are...but there is a HUGE difference between finding a girl attractive and being attracted to her. Every now and then I enjoy eating a good apple, but I am never tempted to pick an unripe one off the tree...and of course there is a difference between a 16 year old and an 8 year old...I think we all know the difference between a child and someone who can pass a fake ID...My concern is for children. To protect them from the monsters that stalk this earth...and if that means putting up posters in public, then lets make the posters big.” Perhaps I have spent too many years, working and living among submariners. From my observaton, experience and culture; perhaps not ALL men, but many if not the majority.

Krysilis- “Galen said very little about child molesting, most of his remarks concerned adult men (at least sexually adult around 18 at least). What he said about these men is true.” “Men are turned on by sight.” Some would obviously want documentation to prove this point. I know that I have heard it many times, I would imagine that it has been written about. “... but if there is something they see, some young thing, that is appealing they are likely to get turned on. And by "some young thing' I don't mean a child.” From conversation this response is often what is being refered to when someone says “red-blooded male”. “When men get aroused, it's not something they can control. It is an automatic physiological response to what their eyes see. Some men are much more prone to this than others,” I agree that it is a ‘seemingly’ automatic response. From my own observation it does not appear to ‘work’ in all men. And in others [myself included] it can be controlled. I don’t not agree that it is a fully ‘automatic’ response, as I believe that there are times when a guy can focus on something and NOT get the automatic response. Or is able to ‘cancel’ it. Consider the doctor who examines a buxom young lady, if he can maintain ‘professionalism’. “In the whole realm of mammals, all males will go for the youngest healthiest female because that way they have the greatest opportunity for their offspring to survive and be born. That is pure biology. I know we are much more than biological creatures, but we cannot escape the features that are built into our bodies, so it is normal and natural for men to be attracted to younger women. As men mature, not necessarily age-wise, they are less inclined to follow their physiology and behave in a more "civilized" fashion.” I do agree. Which is why in taking this issue to the Word, we end up looking closer at ‘adultery’. Our society has changed and modified itself. Historically X---X was a common and accepted thing. The Bible makes allowances to for even in The Law. Today we say that X---X is wrong, does that make it a sin, or just illegal? X---X could be substituted for many things: slavery, child-wives, tyrannical kingdoms, Honouring religious holy-days. Even quarantine procedures: once upon a time AIDs would have been reason for quarantining, today we are too sensitive to people’s feelings to quarantine them for such a communicable and deadly disease. Even a young girl must be under someone’s household making violating her a sin against her father. And what sin would that be? “child-molesting” is not a phrase found within the Biblical text, did people have sex with what we would say were children? Most certainly, absolutely. Does Leviticus say it is a sin? We would have to look at whose household the girl is under and whether the man has rights to her. “Young women do not understand this erection response.” I would tend to agree with this statement. “They are just as interested in having sex as men are,” I would have to take your word for this. I do not know. From my limited experience and reading on the subject it seems that often females have other motives behind what appears as a male ‘sex drive’. “. . . ROTC . . . “ Men who can and do work in High-schools, without any appearance of misbehavior and under purely professional demeanors; are truly men to be respected. “Galen, forgive me if I've embarrassed you, that was not my intention. It just seemed to me that some people either forgot about the sight-response thing or ignored it...and I know very few people really know what ROTC treaining in a high school really involves. I just don't want anyone to have an excuse to think ill of you.” Nothing to forgive, you are a joy as always. Bless you and your kindness.

Water- “My first foster child was a 14-year-old girl whose father had been sexually abusing her since the age of 12 . . . . felt it perfectly logical that he should be the one to sexually initiate his girls! . . . . Her mom . . . . a classic enabler . . . . mom was buying her clothing, . . . .to lingerie from Frederick's of Hollywood.” Yes, we see this too many times within the foster-system. An endless [seeming] cycle. “this is sick, sick, perverted thinking on both parents' parts. Mom is no better. She sees her daughter as a competitor, not a child. She had the girl taking care of the younger kids (3, 2 girls) like a mom, fixing the meals and cleaning the house and helping with homework.” True. Our current foster-daughter was ‘parentified’ as well. She was responsible for raising her younger brothers. We got her when she was 9. She does not like playing with dolls as it reminds her too much of bathing, preparing meals, feeding clothing, etc, her younger siblings; as best we can tell she had done this since she was 6. She told me this past weekend that she never ever wants to have children of her own. I asked her about foster-children, if she thought she might one day wish to help other children. “Now the point is, it is unnatural and out of control mentally and physically for a grown man to allow his mind to even for one millimicron of a nanosecond to go in that direction.” Of course as you should already know from having read these posts, I agree. But we do have another option. In the Bible we can find salvation. “Oh wrecked man that I am”, this body of death that holds me, only through Christ is there redemption. “You can call it abuse, or adultery, or an oopsie when a 60-year-old man molests his 12-year-old daughter. It is still wrong in the eyes of God and should be in the eyes of man.” Regardless I would still agree. ”Don't ever tell me it was okay for that creep to be attracted to her! I don't care if she stripped herself naked, threw herself on the floor in front of him, and said please!” By all means, you should not allow anyone to say such a thing, without voicing your opinion. Though we both know that there exist many in our world who would say otherwise [you know this from within your post]. .

Excath- “ “To pick out one form of adultery and hold it as separate and a disease to mankind, is also wrong. “ “ “i disagree if we're talking about child molestation” Very well .

MJ- “Galen wow Im impressed, truly impressed.” Thank you. “It is no wonder to me the state has given you and your wife some of the most abused children to care for. you are indeed a protector of children and show the deepest love for all innocent ones.” I hope their trust is well founded. “I do not have the time to explain anything to you.” Truly .

Rascal- “Honestly Galen.... a loud resounding NO! Judging from the disgusted reaction of my spouse...I would say that we both find your presumption to be sickening. Contrary to your statement, most folks are NOT tempted sexually by children......and to make it appear as if it is normal, I find disturbing. Do you have any documentaion to back this up, or is it meerly an assumption on your part?” Well then I do apologize for having offended you so much. One of our children is currently attending public High-school, when we go to any function there [recently a chorus, etc] I see the teenaged girls dressed as hookers. I also see other men around me ‘looking’. Perhaps I am ‘mis-reading’ their body-language, but I doubt it. [the body-language of the adult men in the crowd with me, as well as the obvious body-language of the girls who truly need consider wearing more clothing]. As I stated previously I have no statistics to prove what I see. Whether filling my vehicle with gas, or whatever I am doing in public; when a young girl walks by strutting her stuff, I see the other men around me, also looking. Some are better at hiding it, others are not. This offends you, I am sorry. .

MJ- “what brave and honest words. I have forty year span betwen siblings in my family. I see the change in how people speak and think about sex and children and disclosure clearly.” Thank you. “I talked to my son the other day and he is concerned that his little sister is so very beautiful , really kind of angry that she turns heads and is out going. I laughed and said why are you so worried he said"well it didnt matter to me untill some of my own friends started noticing ". victims of childhood sexual abuse often turn to sex as a result seeking the type of love they learned in childhood. ironic but very true.” These trends disturb me as well. Our foster-daughter is 11 and her ‘best-friend’ [Ashley] has told us numerous times that her life’s ambition is to have a convertible when she turns 16 so that she and her friends can drive around in the convertible, take off their tops and tease the boys to make them chase the girls. Ashley is being raised in a single-parent home, her mother began having children as a teenager herself. The mom has never held a full-time job, has never been married, and rotates live-in boyfriends monthly. .

Coolwater- “It is abnormal to be 'tempted' by little children.” Very well. I would of course agree in the limited context of pre-pubescent children. Post-pubescent children however are an entirely different matter. Within the context of ‘children’ we are also talking about 17 year old boys and girls. I know that when I was in my 20’s I was tempted by teenaged girls, even though it would have been a felony. Of course at that time, society was different and I walked without Christ.

excathedra: "thanks krys, i think galen is a wonderful guy." I think your cool too. :-)

excathedra: " "Am I ‘capable’ . . . . . Are YOU ‘capable’ . . . . your husband? I think that anyone who is honest with themselves knows the answer." " "galen, that's f'd up" Excath, sorry. Just trying to be honest. :-)

mj412: "Galen . . . Im kidding but clearly every mother instills in her children right and wrong behaviour" In the culture that I was raised in, I would agree with you. Of recent I have been seeing a lot of 'families' wherein the single-parnet was not been instilling good values in their children. I am concerned that today this is happening more and more. Though I hve no statistics, I think that in my own case I lived for decades within a particular society and was largely ignorant of many other groups within our Nation. "marriage is NOT a LICENSE in the state to allow sex" Really? I thought it was. "In some states adulery is illegal and a person can be arrested as is sodomy illegal. . . " Still the law among the military, as well. ". . . without sodomy laws sex with a boy isnt rape or sexual abuse to the same degree it would be male on female. . ." sodomy against a male is not rape in the same degree that it is with a female? Some would disagree. "IN states with the sodomy laws still on the books male homo sex is breaking the law of the land and they can be arrested. " Here is an example of what the UCMJ reads. Art. 125 - "Any person subject to this chapter who engages in un-natural carnal copulation with another person of the same sex or opposite sex or with an animal is guilty of sodomy. Penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete the offense." "Explanation - It is un-natural carnal copulation for a person to take into that person's mouth or anus the sexual organ of another person or of an animal; or to place that person's sexual organ in the mouth or anus of another person of of an animal; or to have carnal copulation in any other opening of the body, except the sexual parts, with another person; or to have carnal copulation with an animal." Maximum punishments 1)By force and without consent: *Dishonourable discharge, *forfeiture of all pay and confinement for life. 2)With a child over 12 but under 16: *... confinement for 20 years. 3)With a child under 12: * ... confinement for life. 4)all other cases: *... confinement for 5 years.

TheSongRemainsTheSame: "shriners were infiltrated by the illuminnati~~~ do you know this Galen?" Wow, I thought that the Shriners had infiltrated into and among the Illuminati. But you say it was the Illuminated Ones that infiltrated into the Shriners? Cool. 23 children's hospitals and all that medical research to get rid of childhood diseases, still a good cause.

Shellon: "Galen, does my memory serve that you are a 32nd Degree Mason?" I am. Though I do not follow what one has to do with the other. Would you be so kind to explain? I am under obligation to never harm or take advantage if the wife, widow, child, or orphan of a fellow mason. If I see it about to happen, I am obligated to tell the mason to give him due notice. But I think that I would likely do the same for anyone anywhere. As far as accepting the responsibility to all daughters of masons as if they were my own daughters, I think it would be foolish to extend that to the general public. Or are you alluding to the idea of keeping the 'secrets' of another mason? Within that ideal is “co-counseling” where I would also be giving advice: to spend time in prayer, to get therapy, to notify the police, to seek forgiveness from the victim, etc.

lindyhopper: "Did your Northern Maderin speaking friend interpret your tongue by say..."now you said, 'Mow ting dae lo ping', which means My child I love you dearly....etc". Or did he just say, "word for word your tounge meant 'My Child I love you dearly'"." Tony [a military brat who was then serving in the Navy, had spent a great deal of time growing up in Asia. He went to and competed in many Martial Arts competitions, he had many trophys from such competitions. He fought in the 'tiger' style.] when he interpreted my tongue that evening, he spoke only in English [as far as I recall]. He translated what I had said, directly in English. This was over 20 years ago, I do not recall the exact wording of the message. Maybe others do recall every message, but in my case, even within a single fellowship, after four or five people SIT / IT, I often find it difficult to remember exactly what all each said an hour later. What stuck out in my mind at the time, was that his 'translation' was on the lines of: How great God's Grace is that He did such-and-such for Paul and allowed him to walk in such power and that God even allows us to do the same. Again I say this this not an exact word-for-word of what Tony translated. But rather after 20 years time, what stands out in my mind as the basic message that Tony did translate for us.

I fully realize that my opinion on this issue is in the minority. I apologize if it offends anyone here. I am a father and I do have a daughter. As I understand things, before ‘modern times’, ladies were commonly married as very young teenagers. Out of our great diversity of cultures that we come from, many of them married off their young daughters when they began puberty. Some nations today still operate in this manner. My understanding is that within our own nation such was very common up until the 1890’s. Some states still allow marriage starting at age 14. Remember Jerry Lee Lewis he broke no laws, in marrying his 14 year old second cousin. I don’t believe that it is un-common, nor that it is un-natural for a man to be attracted to a teenage girl. I think it is a part of Our Creator’s plan and design. Obviously sex outside of marriage is not decent and it is not in order. Sex outside of marriage does not allow for the common good of society. Ladies giving birth to children need support of greater families. I don’t think that single parents can easily survive. And it is an un-fair burden to place on anyone. I don’t think that our focus should be on the age of the lady so much as on the fact that casual un-married sex is so common. I don’t think morals and ethics can truly be legislated, they need to be taught and shown by example. All men watch the girls. All “healthy red-blooded men” watch “healthy girls”. Are they all temped the same? No. Do they all submit to that temptation? No. Am I ‘capable’ of being a child-molester? I think it more prudent not to answer that question. Are YOU ‘capable’ of being a child-molester? Is your husband? I think that anyone who is honest with themselves knows the answer. I see what High-school girls look like. You see it too. When I turned 18, I was dating a younger girl. Had her parents wanted to, no doubt I could have easily been convicted of horrible felony crimes. I would likely still be rotting in a prison today. Such did not happen and I did not continue the pattern of dating under-age girls. I thank my Creator that I saw the wisdom in only dating girls over 18. When I retired from the Navy, I was offered a job teaching in high-schools. The Navy is willing to “certify” any 20+ year sailor as a high-school NROTC instructor. I could be working in a high-school now, teaching High-school kids the finer points of close-order drill and Military Science. [which is a good course and does give teens a sampling to be able to make good decisions if they want to enter the military as a career]. But I know myself. I know that greater wisdom would be for me to avoid such temptation. Adultery is adultery. I don’t think that any one form of adultery should be treated worse than any other form. Should dirty old men [or presumably women] be able to commit adultery with teenage girls[or boys]? No, obviously not. But neither should our society encourage adultery in any other form. To pick out one form of adultery and hold it as separate and a disease to mankind, is also wrong. .

Song: I am a sinner. [if that is what you are asking].

Catcup: "It was proof to me. At the time, I didn't need proof, wasn't looking for any. I still don't. I considered it an extra special blessing for myself at the time, and still do. Something God did for me of his own prerogative to bless me because I already believe, not so I _would _ believe. I still look at it that way." As I read your post, I would have to say that when I experienced such. At that time, I was not looking for any further proof, not knowingly. I was satisfied (or I thought that I was satisfied) with the experience given me while on the drive that I mentioned earlier. The occurance of someone else in fellowship 'knowing' my tongue and translating it, was more likely just to bless us. "To people who need proof? Hey, I can't convince you, it's between you and God what you believe." I agree. I have been entirely dis-heartened though by hearing so many Corps-grads and leaders now say that they never did truly 'believe' or even speak-in-tongues, that they knowingly lied, 'faked' and 'made-up' their Interpretations and Prophecys. "But the Word is clear about those seeking signs."

Oakspear: "What's wrong with a little proof anyway? Didn't Gideon ask for a sign?" Did he ask for a sign to proof it to the citizens of his nation? or for himself? I think perhaps that is the difference. When I was in doubt, I wanted something to settle my doubt. I dont recall, I can't imagine asking G-d for a proof that would satisfy all those who I would have contact wsith in the coming future. In His wisdom and Grace, He gave me something at that time, to prove it to me. You ask for a copy of it, to be 'tested' by others. That would not prove anything to me. Is it possible that My Father has changed my tongues over the past 20 years, such that that particular tongue is no longer Mandarin? Could be. I dont know. As I do know that we are also told to never 'test' G-d. What he does, He will do in His own time, and for His own reasons.

sky4it: "What I meant by jealousy sex, is where the innocent party goes out and has sex to "get even." " The 'innocent' married spouse goes out and commits adultery? Excuse me; I don’t believe that you are talking about standing Christians are you? Is it considered 'innocent' in the church that you attend to go commit adultery? :-) I think (In my own little universe) that any person committing adultery is no longer innocent of committing adultery. Getting 'even' or not, I would find it difficult to imagine that such would usually be the norm of conduct within a Christian culture or group. I understand that we are heavily influenced by TV, and the media. My foster children come home and we see that everyday they are surrounded by the influences of their common Public School culture. Within such culture, being raised by TV as they are and without any other form of guidance for conduct or ethics; I do understand the concept of 'getting even sex'. As I do the idea that a recent survey of 2nd grade girls thought it is perfectly okay for a boy to slap his girlfriend on the face if she should 'dis' him in front of his bros. I like sex. I also believe that it has a 'proper' context and place [within a marriage and anything that does not disable or cause injury]. Today's common culture has dirtied it, made it common and so has brought it out everywhere such that it is not held as important to be within a marriage. In today' profane culture, sex is on most every channel of TV, the newspapers and magazines. Even country music I turn on and a woman is signing "I ain't gonna leave this bar, till I get me some". If I use the Name of Jesus, only with the highest intentions and regard. Then I am holding that name high. If I use that name as a curse, if I make it common; then even while it is the same name, I have lost something. I think that any person who considers 'getting even sex', has not been living their life or holding their thoughts in any Christian manner. "I actually have seen this in two cases. One party was unchurched the other party was squarely in the church. Then they go back and live together." I realize that I am going to sound harsh and un-caring. There will always be people with the morals of an alley cat, or the conscience of a bitch (a female dog) in heat. I want to love everyone that I am around. Minister to their needs and help them. It is not my job to judge them at this time. It is my job to judge how I am going to lead my life, and who I am going to respect. A fellow believer of high scruples, who worships his creator and tries to do his best in life; I respect even when He and I dis-agree over doctrine. Someone without judgment, without principle can still be my neighbor, but I am not going to respect him or her for their stand with G-d. I do see many examples all around me in life of others who live without regard for principle, or ethics, or their Creator. “I do think the law touches on the subject somewhat also. It might be helpful to look at the principle of "stoning the offenders" , more as a concept that this is kinda what happens. When the dirty laundry gets aired out, there are stones flying from people not a few.” The Law was set for our example, as our schoolmaster from a time when we did not have spirit and knowledge of Our Lord to guide us. That Law has been fulfilled, before us. Within it are good examples of sound doctrine and principles, but that does not mean that we should do everything we find within The Law. I would not be throwing any stones. People need love and compassion. They need a greater understanding of G-d’s Word. Not to say that I will ‘follow’ or even highly regard them if they continue to walk in un-godly paths. But it is still me ministry to offer reconciliation back to G-d. “I think Galen, its the only issue that contemplates the termination of a marriage. About that i am convinced. I have heard pastors argue many other reasons, but I think they are without virtue. I think in cases of abuse, the bible contemplates separation. Of course abusers typically find themselves in adultery anyway.” When a believe finds themselves in a marriage with an un-believer, the un-believer is sanctified by the believer, but they are still an un-believer. Should the un-believer decide to walk away, let them walk, the believer is not bound. If two believers marry, I don’t feel that there should be any grounds for divorce. Having spent 20+ years in the Navy, I was surrounded by people often with the morals of alley-cats. They got married, and commonly while we were out to sea, the wives filed for divorce. I don’t think that I ever went out to sea, except that upon surfacing again, our crew would have at least 2 divorce notifications waiting on us. I do understand that people in society today, do get married and again divorced. Often they do it over and over again. How many of these people really ever walked together in their faith? I am sure some, but I think few. My own father changes his wives like others change their underwear. Recently he has held the same wife, but from about 1977 until 2000, I don’t think that I ever met him twice with the same wife. “your comment: You mean as a believer who now goes out and commits adultery? Okay I would think that the proper thing to do would be to confess such to the husband or father of the girl.” From the Biblical example we find in the OT, if a female is married she is ‘under’ the head of her husband. Any wrong done to her is a sin against her husband. Anyone who commits adultery with her is sinning against her husband. A female who is yet un-married is under the ‘head’ of her father. Any wrong done to her is a sin against her father. Anyone who commits adultery with her is sinning against her father. When fines were being levied. Those fines were paid to the wronged party. A maiden so damaged caused her father to be paid, even if they did not carry out to possible stoning. Similarly anyone committing adultery with a married woman would have to pay the husband. “I do think in marriage the offending party for restitution must tell there spouse tho.” Christianity within our common culture today, I understand within a marriage when a spouse confesses that they have been committing adultery outside of their marriage, it does tend to destroy the marriage anyway. At least this is what I have heard from other sources. I have not experienced such myself, nor from within any of the fellowships that I have been active in. Reading Dear Abby, or listening to the talk-shows, etc; it does appear that once a spouse is told about on-going adultery by the spouse, the marriage from that point on is often doomed. I would think that some form of therapy or counseling would be in order. In this matter I would NOT be thinking of ‘pastoral counseling’ either. As the topic as a whole is so much outside of the excepted norm for Christianity. She tells him, of what she has been doing while he has been out working, so now he forever holds her accountable, holds it ‘against’ her and will never fully forgive her. He tells her, of what he has been doing while she has been out, so now she forever holds him accountable, holds it ‘against’ him and will never fully forgive him. In a society where divorce was not accepted, the couple did not divorce, they stayed together, and they just hated each other for life. I have seen examples of that. 90-year-old couples, and one still rags on the other for what happened in a drunken party in the 1920’s. Today I think it would be far easier and accepted for them to separate.

sky4it: ". . .But there is very little teaching on the subject and very few Biblical references on how to deal with it." Your looking for teachings on "Adultry"? Leviticus lays it out in various manners. I have done (in the past) Word-Studies on Marriage, as well as having read studies done by others. Obviously The Bible lays it out as a sin. Many people are confused perhaps concerning exactly the Biblical definition of who or what it is. The mind-set of that culture is within the idea that women are almost always the property of some man. Thus the Law lays out that to have sex with a woman who is not yours, is a sin against her 'head', either that woman's father or her husband. The only real exception to women having a 'head' is the case of an Harlot {meaning a woman who is her own 'head'). First usage of Harlot is a female head-of-household who is declared Righteous [a rare occurance in the Old Testament]. To my knowledge when addressing 'adultry' The Bible always makes reference to the man whose property has been 'damaged'. {the father or the husband] "Bill Gothard, a man many fundamentalists disagree with takes the narrowist view, that after coming to Christ one should apologize to others for these type of events. (I think I disagree with this, i see little sense in reengulfing oneself in proir offenses." If our Heavenly Father says that we are forgiven, who am I to dis-agree? He says that my sins are removed as far as the East is from the West. Though it is true that some would insist that we should now re-immerse ourselves with our past sins. I dont see the profit of doing so. "About the only thing (NT) about it is that it seems to be the only offense that the Bible allows for divorce. IE(Jesus in the Gospels) He also indicated that the agrieved party was bieng handed a cause of adultry. (Meaning I think like jealousy sex. I have actually heard of this happening)" "Jealousy sex"? "What about the situation of one party committing adultry and never telling the other party. A life time of guilt i think for that party, who at some time must tell there spouse? I think so. I think its Biblical also, for it says if thy brother hath ought against you first go reconcile to your brother and then bring your gift. this must certainly apply to these type of cases." You mean as a beleiver who now goes out and commits adultry? Okay I would think that the proper thing to do would be to confess such to the husband or father of the girl. But really as a beleiver, if you are still doing those things, I should think that if you are serious about your stand with The Father, some prayer and fasting are needed. "In Wayville, it is somewhat more easy I think, because it was a cult, and parties may have been blind sided by higher ups (which may constitute a crime) Still the offending party would have unaddressed guilt. Counseling???" You think it was easier to confess those sins while in TWI? hmm. I dont see where that would have any effect. By all means obviously if someone within TWI pressured (or even did not pressure) the wife of another to have sex with them, it was / is / will be wrong. I am not sure why being in TWI would change this. The Baptists have been doing it, for centuries. The Roman Catholics have been doing these things for Millenia. Guilt is the thing isn't it. And guilt is bondage. Oh wrecked man that I am. Oh this body of sin. This putrified death that encases me. I am a sinnner. I am not the one to point out another beleiver and say that he or she has 'un-addressed guilt'. If a beleiver sins, he/she knows it. If not conscouisly, then sub-consciously. That guilt, that bondage will fix itself over time. But the 'fix' is Heavenly. Drawing oneself closer to the Word. I have foster-children in therapy, and I have significant doubts to the 'benefits' of it. Man does not know that heart of other men, only the Creator can do that.