Galen

Dave- “From a Christian point of view, not from a Way point of view, an anti-Way point of view, or solely from a denominational point of view, forgiveness is a big key to Christian living.” I would agree. “Yes, VPW did things I did not like. I did not like the plagarism. I did not like the sexual coercion. He neglected a lot of scriptures regarding the so-called "law of believing". In teaching about getting "to whom correct", there were distinct differences between tithing under the law in Malachi, dictating one-tenth and the verses in Corinthians to the church simply encouraging people to give of their abudance. Yet, VPW applied tithing to the church, contradicting this very own teaching. I wish he had paid more attention to the scriptures in that area. Yet, I hold no bad thoughts whatsoever about VPW.” In the case, of the law of believing, VPW did place it within a very specific context; by reminding us that rain falls on saint and sinner alike. But that was soon forgotten and people were individually blamed for their perceived failures to believe. Which as we know was not what he taught, but rather how it was twisted. IN regard to his handling of ‘tithing’, anytime you run a business, you must focus on the ‘bottom-line’. I have certainly seen this in churches I have attended, the same happened within TWI. “LCM did a lot of bad things to people. Adultery, unscriptural authoritarian rules and regulations, lacking pastoral skills, lacking research skills, poor financial management, being quick to judge, and on and on. But, you know what, LCM is still a brother in Christ. LCM will be a part of the gathering together, like it or not. Why not just forgive and bury this hatred and animosity?” True. “What's the difference between law and grace. Law is a set of rules which have a punishment if not following. Admittance to paradise was conditional under the law to the adherence to the law. Under the "administration of grace" (notice the actual words used in the Bible), salvation is given immediately upon the acceptance of Jesus Christ as our lord and savior. Under grace, the acceptance of Christ as our lord is the only condition that one must meet. Rewards in paradise, under the grace administration, are determined by obedience to God's Word, not admittance.” Agreed. “You see, if you unclutter your mind from this resentment and get rid of that "anti-way theology", you can simply ascertain what the Bible says. It's not that difficult.” Tsk tsk tsk. Remember love, tolerance, patience and forbearance. George- “Re:"I never saw any 'classic wayfarers' when I was in TWI." ”Well you must not have been looking. That's the only possible explanation I can come up with. I saw thousands of them during my tenure. Huge crowds of glassy-eyed, fawning, servile lackies waiting upon the MOG with bated breath, hoping - beyond hope - that maybe, possibly, they could be called upon to offer him a dinner-mint or an ashtray to buttout his cigarette.” I never called those people “wayfarers” we always called them Corpse .

TheSongRemainsTheSame: "wyteduv58, has there ever been a time in your life that there was no war?" Do you mean a time of no war anywhere in the World?, or just a time when America was not agressive with anyone. For no war anywhere in the World, you would need to find a really good historian. As for America, was there a time after fighting indians on the reservations and before WWI maybe?

I watched Foxworthy last night and they mentioned the name: "Stu Pididiot, first name Stu, last name Pididiot." LOL

ckeer: "Galen -My dad was on the Ronquil- an old diesel boat in the early fifties- he told me the torpedoes at that time used denatured alcohol (part wood alcohol) and compressed air. He said that every once in a while some torpedo mate would filter it through bread to filter the wood alcohol out, drink it and become permanently blinded from wood alcohol poisoning" Yeah. I got to think though. A hundred boats, one fool on each boat is going to try that stunt every so often [the more time they spend at sea, and the more tempting it gets to try some new method of 'filtering' or 'refining'. [Read a book on chemisty and learn about 're-torting' darn it sure looks like you person could just. . . . .] After a few Ooops, it is no longer acceptable to have so much alcohol so close to so many thirsty men. Eventually they did discover a self-oxidizing gel that would run a turbine, but before they did perfect such a thing. They shifted back to straight alcohol for a while. It all seems so odd. The miltary subsidizes the cost of booze, making it a fairly in-expensive hobby. While living in Scotland. We could take tours of wonderful Scottish Whiskey distilleries. Some were centuries old, still making wonderful whiskey. But I could purchase it on base for cheaper then buying it at the distillery. It gets made in Scotland, shipped stateside, sold to the NEX/PX/BX system, shipped back overseas to our various bases, and after all those 'mark-ups', it still costs a servicemember 30% less than it would for a Scotsman to walk into the distillery and to buy a fifth. We actually had 'black-marketing' problems with servicemembers purchasing booze on base and supplying it to Scottish pubs. There are worse hobbies. :-)

krysilis: "It is really a shame that so many people have such a negative view of the military as a career possibility." True. I know it does make me sound like a recruiter. though I am not a recruiter, nor have I ever been a recruiter. "There are so many opportunities for young people who don't have money for college, or don't have a clear direction they want to go in." I agree; the opportunity to go somewhere new, to see new sights, to travel, to meet other people from other cultures, to learn and gain experience in a career field, to earn a degree or two, to earn a good income and be able to invest, etc. "If they enlist, they can learn a whole lot while maturing into young adulthood and have the potential to experience things they could not otherwise do. My husband spent his enlistment in the Marines in various places, Cuba, Italy, Egypt, Spain...as an ordinance man loading airplanes on an aircraft carrier. It was not easy work, not free from danger (loading bombs under running aircraft while on a rolling boat!), but he was able to enjoy some off time in "exotic" locations." I am glad that he enjoyed himself. "An agemate of mine was drafted and after their extensive testing, they discovered he had an unusually unique ability in the foreign languages eventhough he only studied 2 years of French in high school. They trained him in Vietnamese and he spent the majority of his first hitch translating intercepted messages while he himself was in safe terriroty. When he left after his second hitch, he was fluent in Japanese and functional in one of the Chinese dialects. He now works as an interpreter earning a substantial salary in the business world." Opened his eyes to a completely different type of career field. . . . "I often wished some of my students would have considered enlisting, not for life necessarily, but all they would learn, at no cost to themselves is certainly a plus! Additionally those inner city kids didn't have a "studious" bone in their bodies, but within the structured framework of the military, I know they would have gotten a better start in their young lives." Also everyone focuses on 'college money' from the various GI bills. Also while on active duty if you find you have any time on your hands, college courses are available. Using 'Tuition Assistance' the military will pay a portion of the costs [from 75% to 100%, lower paygrades get it for free, higher paygrades pay 25% of their tuition]. Also C.L.E.P. tests are available for free every week. Any topic that you have studied, or if you feel you know you can test on and recieve college credits for. C.L.E.P. testing for active-duty personnel is free. I got my degree mostly while on active duty. The Department of Labor has an apprenticeship program. The Federal government has a listing of jobs and exactly what it is to be any one of those defined job titles. Under their program anyone who receives suffiecent training and works within a pre-defined job title can qualify for a 'Journeyman card' certifying you as that job title. Since I completed the military's Police Academy and worked as a police officer, I qualified to enter the DOL apprenticeship program. After documenting 5000 man hours working in dozens of categorys of Law Enforcement duties, I now hold a Certificate of completion of apprenticeship for the occupation "Police officer-1". Which would qualify me as a badge for hire, if I desired to work in about half the Police Departments around the Nation, starting off as a 6 year veteran of the force. When I returned stateside I did join the Police Officer's Union {FOP chapter 6 of New London county, Ct]. I am not saying this to "blow me own horn'. Rather to humbly submit that during a military career a servicemember can: earn their B.S. degree, join a profession and be recognized for it, make investments suffcient to build a respectable portfolio , all while seeing the World and growing up, and still get a pension when they turn 38 years old. . Bless you.

Did not know him, though the name does sound familiar. What did he do? His family will be in our prayers. .

TheSongRemainsTheSame: "There are no exemptions even if the best or worst are sent to war. All are involved. I am not just hanging around my home oh hum, when i know our elite and weekend warriors are dying. If one is joining the military, that one is not joining a college education or retirement if ya make it alive. Sorry about the truckers, but they drive on a freeway. Surely you know that Galen." I have no idea how I managed to survive 20+ years. Over the years I have had so many freinds die or become crippled, I have been terribly fortunate. Yes I have served in a combat theater. However I should point out that every shipmate or friend of mine that died or was seriously crippled was done outside of combat. We lived and worked in extremely hazardous environments. Dealing with: ship-board fires, hydraulic ruptures [3000lb hydraulic oil fires are nasty], toxic torpedeo fuels, Cadnium in the air, radiation, asbestos, floodings, etc. Men are harmed and die while dealing with each of these, and for those who live the accumulations of all these give systemic health issues that can not be diagnosed. From my observations, our worst enemy is young hormone-filled stupidity. Most men that I have seen maimed were doing something stupid, not following safety-procedures, or showing off their bravery. Obviously this does not address those whose career fields kept them in combat zones long term [my stint in Kosovo-theater was very short-term it was only 2 years]. I still think that over-all someone who chose a career in truck driving would likely face significantly higher mortality. During: WWI, WWII, and Korea, huge numbers of vets died or were maimed. By the time we consider Vietnam: 9.7% of that generation served in the military; a total of 9,087,000 served from 64-75, of which 3,403,00 served in theater. That means 37% of those vets from that era served in combat theater. 0.01% of that entire military [58,202 / 9.08million] have died [either then or now from service related injuries, both from hostile action and from non-hostile]. Or it could be stated that 0.02% of those who served in theater have died [58thousand / 3.4million]. 61% of the those who died were under 21years old. 0.3% of the military was wounded [303thousand / 9.08million]. 25% of those wounded were draftees, meaning 75% of the wounded were volunteers. Only 38% of draftees ever served in theater. More recently: El Salvador in '75, Lebanon '83-87, Grenada '83, Libya '86, Persian Gulf '87-90, and '95-now, Panama '89-90, Somalia '92-95, Haiti '94-95, Bosnia '96- now, Kosovo '99-now, [good gawd the list is long, please forgive me anyone who has served in any of the others that I have failed to list, wow that list is long I got tired of typing it.] Yes people have served, and continue to serve honourably, but it is not as if a majority of those serving will die their first hitch. Very few die in these combats [compared to the numbers of servicemembers who serve]. Those that I have served with who have died, died from over the duration of my 20+ year career. Had I driven a truck those same years, would I have seen more death? It is likely. Truck drivers dont have good retirement plans, they dont have good medical coverage. I am not saying that truck-drivers are the most honourable profession, I am just picking that one out of the entire field of hard-working middle-class professions of Americans striving to make themselves better. They serve the needs of our nation, they put their lives on the line for us to have fresh butter in our supermarkets. All things considered, when comparing all the various professions that exist today. I dont think that serving a career in the military is such a bad option. It is certainly not the most dangerous thing that you could do. "Thank you Galen for your service for freedom. I do mean that with all mine heart." Thank you. "How is your son Sir?" He is home now. He had bad experiences with tear-gas and dysentary in Bootcamp, while recuperating from he 'developed' a heart murmer. While in AIT [which he loved] his physical abilitys deteriated and his heart failed him numerous times. Eventually after serving for eight months he was given an Honourable dis-charge for medical conditions. The VA will not look at him, as his service was too short. We could argue the case of him being healthy when he went in, and dis-abled now; but he does not desire to 'focus' on his condition. He is working full-time at McDonalds, attending college to finish his degree as a computer geek. By the way, I got those numbers from the VFW website. PS. my son is sitting here with me and expresses that there is no difference between reservists-called-up and active duty who serve normally. Bless you.

We used to have torpedeos that ran on alcohol, thus we stored hundreds of gallons of pure alcohol labeled: "Torpedeo Fuel". The problem though was that each patrol a good portion of it 'evaporated'. Some boats the evaporation loses were high. [such was the offical reason for alcohol disappearing.] Then they shifted to Otto-fuel [a self-oxidizing gel that would absorb through your skin and poison you], so we did not carry so much alcohol on-board. Then Defense Contractor's wrote into their tech manuals that electronic equipment [magnetic read-write heads, photo-sensors, and electrical contacts] had to be cleaned with pure alcohol. To perform this the Doc kept a few gallons locked up. Each week, I had to fill-out a request and give it to the Doc, who gave me 8 ounces [to be used only for cleaning equipment]. Fortunately the boats stocked a lot of V-8 and tabasco sauce on the mess-decks. I also learned to flush out big bottles of lighter fluid and filled them with ever-clear. Once I was giving a lttle squirt of my 'lighter fluid' into everyone's bug-juice, when my chief walked in. He saw my 'lighter fluid' and wanted to re-fill his lighter. He did, without asking. But when he was done, he could not get his lighter to light again. He kept fiddling with it, and finally he burnt himself [the problem was that now his lighter burned with an invisible flame]. Eventually he threw out the lighter convinced that it was damaged. Torpedeo-Men traditionally make wine in their bilges using: empty KOH bottles, raisins, sugar, yeast and bug-juice. Machinist-Mates often make wine into brandy with their Oxygen-generators [the internal parts are well suited to distilling alcohol. Each boat has two O2 generators, and so long as one is running well it makes all the oxygen tha twe need, so we dont need both running, so the 'off-line' unit is available for distilling.] :-)

TheSongRemainsTheSame: ""That is still only 0.27% of the 18-35 population [ one person out of every 365 ]."" "how many of them will die!!!??? got any stats on that man?_" Sure significantly less than if the same number of people began a career driving trucks on American highways. "war is war no matter who is exempted or drafted or vacation pay and college, conscript is forced , and evident before your eyes... all are involved... there is no exemption!" I dont understand. ""The sick, lame, crazy, students and professionals are exempted."" "so, where does that qualify you?" I am a servicemember. No need to get any exemption here. Thank you for your concern. Though apparantly a law changed [from when my brothers were drafted] and college students are apparantly no longer exempted. My bad.

MATILDA: "weren't those Julius Caesar's last words on the steps?" Et Tu Brut'a :-)

valerie52: "E-6 Galen?" Yes of course. :-) "In Israel, all males serve 3 years, and all females serve 2 years WITHOUT PAY." With the single exception being for religous beleifs . "They are given enought money for stuff, but they do not get a pay check. Their room and board is take care of etc...." Not nearly as well taken care of as are our servicemembers. But again they are far more commited to their cause. "While in Israel in Oct, our tour group was having a picnic in The Golan Heights and 200 IDF young soldiers came there also for their lunch. They were eating Kosher MRE's and we were eating fresh stuff so we shared, and they desended upon the food!" I would imagine that was a great experience. I really enjoyed my trip there with CES in 2000. I really liked how we kept seeing platoons at so many sites, sitting and being taught their ancient history. It seemed to me that each Israeli soldier would make knowledgible tour-guides when they have completed their conscription. "We took pictures. (I will be posting those on the "I went to Israel" thread)." I look forward to seeing them. "These kids truly loved their country." Oh yes. "After the 2-3 year stint is up, they can continue, WITH PAY for a career." My understanding [which is formed from observations and conversation] from drinking with British, French and Italian sailors is that in Europe, conscription runs all the time at some low level bringing into the military such as they need. Those conscripts are limited to equivilant E-1 to E-3 pay-grades. Upon completing their conscription service they can re-up, get training and advancement to E-4. What you describe about Israel sounds similiar. :-)

Shellon: "My neighbor is a 35 y/o desert storm vet and he can't re-enlist. He is going to Iraq on a contract for other purposes." There exist really good jobs for vets, as contractors working in Theater. Is he still on active-duty? Is he approaching his projected retirement date? Servicemembers do on occasion find themselves un-able to re-enlist due to poor performance evaluations. Sometimes it is due to weight-gain [body-fat measurements become very hard to fight as one gets older]. "My brother is a 44 y/o marine and can't re-enlist." As an active-duty servicemember, I presume that is he reaching his 'High-Year-Tenure' point. E-5s are allowed to stay on active until they reach 15 years. E-6s are allowed to stay active until they reach 20 years. E-7s ... 24 years, E-8s ..., E-9s ... 30 years. I was forced to retire at my 20-year point. Can you guess my pay-grade? :-) "Is there some protocol to who can/can't/will/won't?" There are many variables. But it is all done by following written policy and regulations, to make it 'fair, non-sexist, non-discriminitory'. :-)

P-Mosh: "The "backdoor draft" that is already occurring is ridiculous, as I just read a story of a 50-something year old Vietnam vet who is being reinstated. There are lots of others such as lindy's friends who are technically being drafted as well. Usually it's based on skills rather than a generic draft and it's limited to veterans (at least for now.)" Was this 50-yr 'vet', or a servicemember in the reserves? or a retiree still receiving paychecks? I would imagine that in some method he was still on recall [thus still a servicemember]. I seriously doubt if he was simply a vet who had gotten out in 1976, with no further obligation and was called back in in 2004. He would not have been under any form of contract obligating him to go. If he went active in 1976 [making him a Vietnam-Era Vet], he could still be on active duty had he cleared the rank of E-9. As an E-9 can stay in for as long as 30 years, without reaching his High-Year-tenure. If he staying active for 20 years, and retired in 1996, he would still be on retainer, until he turns 65. Obviously depending on his final Pay-grade he could have stayed active longer. Or on the other hand, what if he was a part-timer. He did three, four, or six years active starting in 1975 and he went into the reserves after that [for the additional income]. He would be in the reserves until he accumulates the needed 'points' for retirement. Depending on how much 'training' he does, his reserve-time could easily stretch out until he turns 65. I have seen reservists doing their 2-weeks summer vacation, who had white hair and were terribly elderly. Even a reservist-retiree can be called back for further service. A 'reservist-retiree' is a part-timers who has completed accumulating enough points to retire. They dont actually get any more pay-checks, and they lose most benefits until they turn 65. But they carry a blue-ID card. On a completely different idea, the military does on occasion 'ask' a veteren [with no obligation of service] to come back 'in' to explain and over-see bringing some system out of moth-ball status. Old battle-ships, when we no longer have operating manuals or design specs, will require that we 'recruit' old guys from WWII. They are used to teach new crews and their knowledge is valuable. ". . . . They're looking to possibly draft medical people and other areas of specialty that are running low in the military." We have done this one for decades. Any medical school has recruiters stationed there, to recruit medical students. Any student whose GPA drops and is in danger of losing his scholarships, can sign-up. The military will put him on a paycheck and cover tuition+, this obligates the doc to serve 6 years after he graduates medical school. On the other hand, no recidency, no internship is required. While the civilian counter-part is doing his residency, the military doc is an O-1 or O-2 running a division of medics. That is why we in the military have the 'best' medical care in the world. As our doctors can 'practice' without fear of mal-practice suits, they get really good pay and a 20-year retirement. Their offices are usually very well stocked and they get to play with very new and cutting-edge equipment [sometimes]. They dont have to deal with insurance companys, or billing, or even the cost of meds. They hold fairly high-ranking pay-grades and they routinely command hundreds of men. ". . . They want to be able to practically enslave people and force them to work at crappy government jobs." Hmm, government jobs are enslaving and 'crappy'? Granted I have not heard anything to imply that such was happening. On the other hand, government jobs are choice. They have got the best unions, the best vacation time, sick leave, maternity leave, mental-health leave, solid guaranteed pension plans and the 'Thrift savings plan'. My wife works as a grocery store clerk, on Subase. She is a federal employee. She can transfer to any posting anywhere in the world, so long as she fulfills the minimum requirements for such job. Here in this area minimum wage is $7.05-ish. She makes $12, when she stocks shelves she makes more. She is working on her 20-year pension. Each week we look over the other available federal jobs, that she might qualify for. Forest Ranger [they needed a teacher to operate a historic artist's home that was made into a federal park], accountants, security guards, vehicle drivers, etc. "I think Galen has been given incorrect information about recruitment levels," I have spoken with recruiters, recently as our eldest son went into the Army. After trying the Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard. They were full, or not willing to lower their entrance standards enough to allow him in. [He had a minor heart mummer as a child, which he out-grew? and as a teenager his physicals showed no signs of any further issues]. The Air Force Recruiters told me that they fill their annual quota by February each year. None of them [in conversation] appeared to be under quota, or even near close to hurting. "It's a shame that the leaders of our military don't give our soldiers the proper training or equipment" I might agree with this statement, sometimes. On the other hand, when this does happen it gets high-level attention from congress. [brought on because of the media attention it gets]. ". . . then turn around and place them in harm's way without a good reason" This is what the paycheck is for. Perhaps you did not know. The military's job is to stand in the way of danger. I dont recall any thing in any oath that I have sworn, about the 'reason'ing for each duty. "It is not my job to reason why, it is my job to do or die" "Nevermind that there is no real leadership overseeing things over there which allows crap like Abu Ghraib to happen." This would be a matter for debate.

Watered Garden: "Galen, I heard a very similar story about General Packenham, a British soldier who was slain during the Battle of New Orleans (I think)." Could be, though I dont recall ever hearing of him. "I also wonder if Admiral Lord Nelson wasn't fatally wounded at the Battle of Trafalgar, with Napoleon's troops?" Could be. It was before my time. :-) Dmiller- "tapping the Admiral" Interesting site. Though while I have heard toasts along the lines of "to Nelson's blood" or "May Nelson's Blood give you courage"; I dont recall ever hearing "tapping the Admiral". Not to say that such is not a usage, but perhaps among other sailors than those with whom I have drank. :-) WG (The History Police) ;)-->

Hmm, talk to the recruiters and they are signing new recruits at full quota levels. Turning away the excess. When we are in need of more recruits, we generally lower the standards. For example I was enlisted with 'flat-feet' during the end phases of Vietnam. But by 1980 flat-feet were again a dis-qualifier. During times like this the MEPS centers are very picky in who they want. Congress limits how big the military can be. 'Stop-loss' measures are a last-minute type of fix while it is argued in congress to allow the military to swell it's ranks again. Entirely different people, at different levels of the chop-chain, with entirely different agendas. Besides I dont see the problem with running a draft. As I have stated previously, I am in favour of a draft. Remember having a draft does not mean that you are taking in any more recruits. A draft by birth-date can bring in everyone who has born on 1 january for example. That is still only 0.27% of the 18-35 population [ one person out of every 365 ]. Those getting a notice appear will still be allowed to present any defferment they might have. So anyone attending college, or working in industry, or any doctor, etc; is automatically protected. Then they are examined medically to screen out anyone with any pre-existing medical conditions. The sick, lame, crazy, students and professionals are exempted. Since this next draft will include females, and since females are a greater part of the population, a majority of the draftees will be female! Cool. You have to love Equal-Opportunity. I was very lucky to have slipped by when I retired in Mar'01, by June retirements were being halted. Though I am still ready to be called-up if the active-duty forces need another body. I dont see the 'problem' with serving. .

I have read the story about the patrol of the USS CONSTITUTION previously. Also if you want to read a good one, look up the story behind the toast: "We drink to Nelson's blood". Lord Admiral Nelson led the fleet during a victory over the Spanish, though he suffered a mortal wound during the battle. They wanted to ship his body home for burial, and in need of a method of preserving it, they put his body into a barrel of whiskey. The trip home was long and arduous, during which time the whiskey in Nelson's barrel became foul so they swapped it out with fresh whiskey. then a while later they ran out of fresh whiskey, so the crew began drinking the fouled whiskey [no sense in wasting 'good' whiskey]. I see a doctor every three months, and they routinely ask about my drinking. They asure me that a fifth of rum per week is well within the norm for any retired sailor, just dont exceed 2 fifths per week very often. I went to an Army base in Oklahoma to visit our eldest son. while there we re-stocked and I had to notice that the base class-six [liquor store] was smaller than a 7-eleven and it only had one shelf of booze. The entire base had 6 gyms and only one club. The difference I see in the Navy is that, here at Groton Subase [a tiny little base, 17 subs with 130 crew each. So it is a base to support approx 2200 sea-going sailors] We have an officer's club, an enlisted-mens club, the chief's club, and the bar at the bowling alley, plus a package-store the size of a large grocery [it is like a small warehouse]. The subase has one gym to 4 bars [when we ahd marines here we even had a mar-bar]. My wife recently experienced a 'cardiac event', during her stay in the cardiac ward a group of doctor's were asking her various quesitons about our lifestyle, etc. When alcohol came up, one doctor stopped and said that he noticed she was a sailor's wife, so he asked how much rum she drinks. Bonnie answered that she drinks coconut rum. They laughed, and agreed that yes that made sense and that she should limit her drinking to a fifth every two weeks. I think that tradionally, as well as currently; the Navy views alcohol in a different manner than do the other services. I have been on-board British as well as French boats. 2 pints of beer with each meal [assuming your not going on-duty] is not a bad way of doing things. But man I hate limey-beer served in aluminum, gawd it tastes aweful. I went onboard a Norwegian surface ship once to have lunch. Now that was a party ship. They were getting tanked. Co-ed crew, the girls all had long hair worn half-way down their backs and only those standing watch wore uniforms. It looked like 200 '20-something' college co-ed civilians having a BBQ and chugging rum-drinks. It is hard to imagine that they could ever safely navigate out to sea.

Steve!: "With today's mortgage interest rates, you are INSANE to pay off your mortgage early." I make 16% on the money I put onto my mortgage's principle. Which is difficult to equal in any other form of investment. That money is also a portion of our tax shelter, sheltering us from paying income taxes. When money first comes in to our pockets [from rental income] it would ordinarily be taxable, except of course when it is spent in the course of conducting business. In this case, I would rather spend the money gaining equity [while sheltering my other incomes from taxes]. "That's right, I said insane." I would disagree. Do you have an investment that is currently paying 16%? Do you pay any form of income tax? "If your mortgage interest rate is 6%" Actually ours was recently refinanced at 3.5% By paying extra money onto the principle, we have built our equity a great deal over the past few years. A few months ago, I refinanced and pocketed extra money which is mine tax-free. I just used it to purchase another property. 44 acres and a home. All from rental income. Insane? I dont think so. :-)

rascal: "Dunno Galen, no house payments after 8 years verses a 30 yr mortgage ... sure money was tight....but by adding only 50 dollars a month to our payment, it paid a 15 yr loan in 8." Yes it does work great. "It made a lot of sense....For our family, that simply meant no fast food or movies when the kids were little....now with no mortgage, we have the money to pay cash for the big toys n extras...." We alway pay as much as we can each month onto the principle. We just dont make down payments. "If you pay down that principle quickly, you save tens of thousands of dollars on a mortgage , and eliminate many may years of payments...." That is right. Now consider how much effect each dollar is having when paid against the outstanding principle, in terms of cuting down the back end of the mortgage. You make out with every dollar paid onto the principle. :=)

TheEvan: "Biblefan Dave, do you believe that Jesus' words in the gospels are directly applicable to your christian walk in the manner the epistles are?" May I jump in? I dont think that the Gospels should ever be totally dis-regarded. PFAL certainly did not teach any such thing. Within the Gospel we see many wonderful things. But what they do present is set within a given context. Jesus and His ministry was set completely before Grace. Those he spoke to and ministered to were over-whelmingly Jews. [granted there was in fact a few Gentiles that he had access to, but they were not the focus of his ministry]. Those Jews that Jesus spoke to were trying to live by The Law of Moses. Today we have Grace, or if not then the torture, death and riseing of Our Lord and Savior would be for naught. We have Righteousness, Santification, Redemption, Justification, and we have been given the Ministry of Reconciliation. These are not found in the Gospel. I do not in any way imply that the Gospel are of any lesser 'quality', nor is Genesis. It is The Word of God. It is set like a gem stone, like a diamond. .

reikilady: "Especially if you drive an older car, get Triple A. The savings on the towing and car insurance is great!" Respectfully we would disagree with this one. We only purchase 'older' cars. We take them in for 200 point checks annualy, We budget the expense of each vehicle needing $500 to be spent on it each year during these planned inspections. We do not have AAA, not any towing club. We have found over the years that on the rare occasion that a vehicle does need towing, just paying for it, is still cheaper. Spend your money on maintenance, not newness and not on 'clubs'. "Do your homework on big ticket purchases for prices and interest rates" Good. "Keep track of where your money goes" Good. "Keep your bills paid on time" Always. We always pay off every bill each month. No outstanding debt means nothing they can charge us interest on. "Pay the most you can on a mortagage to save money in the long run on interest." We disagree. We advocate paying zero down on each mortgage. Don't pay anything down when you buy a property, [except closing costs]. And always get 30 year mortgages [they are the cheapest]. Once you have the mortgage [30 year mortgages have the lowest monthly payments]. This gives you more lee way in your monthly budgeting, so if a crisis comes along your not trapped by a huge mortgage payment. On months when you dont have any crisis, then pay all extra money onto the principle of your mortgage. Commonly $100 / month on the principle, as a seperate payment will shorten the mortgage by months [giving you far greater pay-back]. the last time we figured it out, by paying $200/month onto our primary mortgage takes so much off the back end of the mortgage that it appears as a 16% investment. It is hard to find a 16% investment these days. Keep in mind that each mortgage is different.

Read "The millionaire Nextdoor" Great tips on buying automobiles, businesses to own, spending habits, savings and investment strategys that work, . . . . We can learn a lot from thousands of first-generation American Millionaires. My copy of this book is dog-eared heavily high-lighted and well-worn. .

WD those 27 8X10 glossys are for the benefit of the seeing eye dog. Officer Obby knows that.

CW- “I understand that what you see and hear about the most is what you have described. Have you ever considered that you see a microcosm of what really is? Me, my sister and my brother were not in the system...we would have never been in a foster home. No social workers were looking in on our well-being, no judges were giving orders for our parents to get therapy, not one hint of the system.” What I hear you saying is that: I ‘see’ the issue existing within a microcosm or a minority of our society. Whereas In your opinion the majority of child molesters are outside of my knowledge. The difference you explain is due to income. [i.e. because these families do not have the money to keep things in the private sector.] Could be, I don’t really know anyone who is terribly wealthy. Mostly working-class: both among foster-families and otherwise. It is my impression that most of the children that run through the state-controlled foster care system are lower-income to middle-income level families. So perhaps, there does exist a large number of families out there who molest or neglect their children, but that they are too wealthy to come within the scope of DCF [Dept Children & Families, or whatever it is called in your particular state]. While the overall percentages [or ratios] of wealthy : middle-class : poor, do change and vary from region to region. It is my over-all impression that the wealthy are few. Whereas the middle-class and poor are in the majority. “I do not think that you are espousing pedophilia.” Thank you. ”I do wonder, however, if you have teenaged daughters. If so, I cannot understand your position.” Our current foster-daughter is 11. She turns 12 this coming weekend. ”Are you saying that at a certain age it is no longer abuse, but most probably is just 'natural'?” I think that abusive behavior is abusive behavior and should be treated as such. It often is taught to very young children who in turn perform abusive behavior to others [commonly anyone younger or smaller than themselves]. There are many varied forms of abusive behavior; sexual predators, bullies, sadists, etc. They can be seen as abusive spouses, controlling people, micro-managers, etc. I don’t see any magic ‘line’ or demarcation that happens when someone turns 18, that suddenly turns them into an adult. One day they are a child and protected, and the next day they are an adult. Our society made this demarcation, and formed laws around it, building it up. Regardless of how sexually active a person is before or after this one day. Regardless of how they have progressed toward maturity: physically or behaviorally. We as a society have built this demarcation at an arbitrary age. If a person has physically developed and matured and puberty is behind them; and their behavior tends to suggest that they have entered into ‘adult’ sexual relationships, then calling them a ‘child’ is mis-leading. I do agree with earlier cultures that did or still do, use formalized arranged marriages for people once they have reached this demarcation. Trying to find guidance for ‘dating’ from within the Scripture is difficult. Why? Because it really did not happen. Which is largely responsible for why we today have so much confusion and mis-understanding among single adults. There are no guidelines in existence, because as a group we are operating outside of Biblical guidelines. Is it a disease when a [red-blooded] X---X sees a young [fully developed] X---X, and feels a sexual attraction? Either of these X---Xs could have been male or female. No, I don’t think so, I think it is biology. Are we as humans, higher than dogs and cats? Sure. Should we be able to control ourselves and act ‘professionally’? Sure. Does this mean that just because a cute young thing walks by that I have to sin in my mind? No. Can my mind-body find her attractive without ‘fantasizing’ about having sex? Sure can. If she is under 18 and I am over 18; am I now a pedophile? What if I am over 40? Now do I become a pedophile? I do not fantasize about having sex with under-age females. In fact I generally don’t fantasize about sex outside of marriage at all. But that does not mean that I don’t see the young ladies around me. Or that I don’t see other men around me also looking at those young ladies. From what I can see, it appears fairly common among adult men, to notice and look at young ladies. From what I read here on GS, I would presume that it is not un-common among adult ladies as well. Are they all pedophiles? Are we all pedophiles? I am certainly concerned about raising this daughter. I am concerned about her friends. Two years ago for Halloween a friend came over for a party that we were hosting, she was ‘costumed’ as a hooker. She was 10. Is that appropriate? I did not think so. But that also appears to be our society today.

excathedra: "or were you trying to say you don't have the time either" For you I would attempt to find the time.

MJ- “the cycle of abuse continues . . . .” Very well documented. We discussed this tonight at our support-group. Many foster-families work with the ‘dysfunctional’ bio-family members. “. . . it is a learned behaviour and it is abosolutly BOTH FEMALE and male, . . . “ In a fairly small percentage, some of the foster-children in the system are of this variety. The ‘sexual-predator’s. Locally we have seen them diagnosed as young as 8 years old. They have been so abused, that even after removal to better foster-homes and therapy, a few years later and they will be attacking other children. But all is a show of ‘love’. And of course they can not be diagnosed until after they have assaulted another child. I have been amazed at how many sexual predators we have that are under 12 years old.