Galen

Mark Sanguinetti: "Galen, ... but think about this for a moment. The PFAL class may have some good material. ... Of course, the other option is to keep taking the PFAL class over and over again. Sort of the catechism, memorization, regurgitation approach." Hmm, I dont follow, uh, You wish to continue taking PFAL over and over again? To what end? Dont you understand that there is in fact a whole great and wonderful Christian world out there? :-)

Mike: "We should give Galen his thread back." Hmm, To me IMHO, this thread, this forum is the moderator's and then the community of posters'. It is not 'mine'. Yes I first posted and began this particular thread. But I don;t see it as any form of toe-stepping that everyone with an opinion wants to jump in and contribute their 2cents. I am saddened that so many who were hurt by The Way, have decided to take out their hurt on this class. Through-out Ex-Wayfers there are many who would admit that having taken PFAL has helped them, if you could only subtract the abuse of power-hungry leadership [pronounced Corpse-grads] :-) As you'all know I do like PFAL. I also like some other ministry's things and courses. I see 'good' in them [including PFAL]. Now again I will step-back, and You'all can pounce with all your might upon this post and everythign else within the thread. :-)

I certainly do not fully understand this topic. Allow me to express this first. The ways of my G-d are wonderous to me. I have been witness to people prayer for things, that I would have never thought possible, and yet I have seen happen anyway. Granted not always, but just often enough to give credibility. I have seen many gangs of sailors going out into town, looking for ladies. Most often they came back hours later: drunk, dragging and broke [none of them usually will have gotten anymore from a lady then perhaps a phone number]. I have been witness to a couple of guys over the years, who have been in my services on-board as well as in our Twig, coming to me and in prayer asking to meet a 'speical lady'. Now the first time I heard such prayer, I thought this guy had a lot to learn. And the following morning as he climbed out of a girl's car and approached the pier, I was made to confront my own limits that I had placed upon my Heavenly Father. Now since that first time when I witnessed this. I have had a great deal of time to try to reconcile this into my personal 'doctrine'. Over the years, in dealing with men in my 'congregations' on-board different subs and at different times, I have witnessed this occuring more then once. :-)

oenophile: “I find myself agreeing with the thrust of your post in that God is not bound by our understanding how he oughtto act to bring about His will in our lives. However, the idea that God usespeople to bring about His will is repugnant to His nature. He has endowed each human with that sacred space within which is the freedom to choose.” I think that someway, somehow the following things MUST be reconciled: 1. Our Creator gives everyone freedom of will, to choose to do whatever they wish. 2. Our Creator sees everything that you have done, might do and in fact will do. 3. Our Creator may [at His will] chose to assist you in your path. 4. In assisting you; He may use angels, believers, un-believers, animals, or even acts of nature. 5. None of these above ideas can violate each other, or any other known fact of G-d’s behavior. Is it possible that knowing what everyone everywhere is doing and about to do, that perhaps He can ‘guide’ you into the correct path to ‘bump’ into the right un-believer’s path? Over the years I have seen things, that in every other context should have NEVER been allowed, and certainly never assisted by Him. But obviously what ‘box’ I had made was simply not big enough for Him. A believer wants to swap a rock for an old pick-up truck, he talks to His Lord in prayer about his desire, and is guided into the path of someone in need. The believer helps the need is afterwards finds himself in conversation with someone who owns an old pick-up truck and is willing to trade it for just such a rock. Now in that story, did Our Heavenly Father guide the un-believer? Or did He guide the believer into just the right circumstance such that this ‘unlikely’ trade could happen? Was an un-believer ‘used’? Could be. Did Our Creator un-fairly control anyone? No.

Watered Garden: "Galen, when I was on the Left Coast our TC's wife would always call me to come and visit (we were both homemakers at that time). When I arrived, rather than coffee and a doughnut, she would be waiting with a bucket of soapy water and a rag! She considered it to be granting me a privilege to scrub something in her home for her. She also allowed me to babysit for her sometimes and left a six inch list of chores to accomplish in addition to feeding, bathing and getting her little darlings off to the land of nod! " What crack-smoking I truly dont recall ever doing such things for anyone else' home as has been listed here on this thread. So I asked Bonnie. She said that once while I was underwater, and she was in Bremerton Washington, there was a period where she did not maintain the twig, and she was visiting with a 'near-by' twig-coordinator in Port Orchard. Tina Meekin I think her name was. Well the BC's wife was there and the conversation did turn to the area twigs taking turns in a rotation to go over to Tacoma to the BC's home to clean it for her each week. Apparently Bonnie said whatever her immediate thought was out-loud [knowing her was was likely either: "Is the Branch Coord smoking crack, thinking that we are his slaves?" Or something fairly close to that]. Bonnie says that after whatever she said, the other ladies shifted topics. and for the remainder of the time that we were stationed there, such topic was never again brought up in her presence. Though I do seem to think that Tina did take to inviting Bonnie over, more frequently during the later era of our time stationed at Bremerton and then over to Bangor [pronounced Bang-Her, unlike the Bangor in Maine which is pronounced Bang-Gor [long O]] :-) I think that Tina may have seen Bonnie as a 'sheild' to ward off her twig from having to do the slave routine at the BC home. That BC, we can't recall his name. We did know a 'Steve Strict' that was in Fresno 'with' us, he did have a live-in female slave [she went to college with me], the BC in Tacoma's name sounded like 'Strict' but it was something different. Sorry I cant recall his last name. I know that later when it was announced that a spy had found a book from Cummins in my closet, the BC was not capable of talking to us about it, and had to refer it to Mosquido, to 'confront' us about it. Bonnie did remind me that we did routinely help people move. We commonly brought over a few cases of beer or a keg, and a few pizzas and had invited over as many beleivers and sailors to help load a moving van and clean the property, or in the case of someone moving into the area, they wold help cleaning the house and unloading the van. All the PFAL classes and others [Renewed mind, harmony of the Gospels, Intermediate, Basic Keys to Research, Witnessing and Undershepherding, etc] we cleaned and organized our home ourselves. It simply never occured to us to employ slave labor. That would be un-duly using your position in the body, to intimidate compliance from the congregation. :-) Belle, WG, Hamm, Excath- See I guess that many of us did experience the same ministry, after all. Outie- I took the Advanced Class in San Diego, thank you for you efforts. It never occured to me that 'big wigs' coming in, would have expected such service. I am sorry if I in anyway contributed to the burden. Def- You got booted from your residence whenever 'big wigs' came to town? Ugh, it is amazing that anyone thought wuch was 'ministering'. Oakspear- "I reminded him that he told me that I could leave the room set up, and he admitted that he forgot, and had moved everything around so that he and his wife could exercise! No apology though, and later an explanation that if I had been spiritually sharp I would have showed up earlier and caught the problem myself!" I know from experience that commonly it helps to remind people to thank me, ie "Yes I do except your apology for mis-takenly yelling at me" and turning my back and walking away. A la Prochaine- "... your summation of leadership and their arrogant ways was priceless!!!" It is nice to read about it when it is coming from someone else. :-) When I point it out, I apparently offend many posters. But yes, Corpse leadership was often very arrogant. :-)

skyrider: "Now Galen.......you know better that THAT! If you start doing independent research and the next guy does the same......then twi will NO LONGER be like-minded. It's called -- private interpretation." "Didn't you learn anything in pfal??????" No, I learned that I needed to be doing word-studies myself and everyone else learned that too, but alas it was not done everywhere.

Belle: "I think I heard craig teach it though. I didn't study it, but it did make sense at the time....." Might I be so bold as to suggest looking things up, in the future. Sounds like such would have been a good practice back 'then' as well. :-)

skyrider: "In reference to "the real Moses stuttered and had no public leadership abilitys"..............does anyone remember hearing a teaching that clarified this?" No I do not, I have however read: Exodus 4: 10And Moses said unto the LORD, O my LORD, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue. 11And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD? 12Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say. 13And he said, O my LORD, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send. 14And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart. 15And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do. 16And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God. In verse 10 the word translated 'slow' is Kabed [#3515] [it comes from Kabad meaning to be heavy, sever, or dull] Kabed is used to mean sever, stupid, difficult, hard, heavy, thick or laden. Note however The Great Author did not use the usual word for slow which would have been 'Arek [#750]. "As best I recall, John Shoexheit (or someone) taught ...." Could be, I really would not know. "In other words, Moses was NOT a stutterer.....he had simply been away in exile in Midian and didn't feel equipped to be God's spokesman." I see. Yes, however being that Moses was a great man in G-d's sight and most certainly far closer to G-d than anyone else was at that time, far be it for me to be the one saying that this great prophet did not 'feel' like it. If the Bible said that he did not 'feel' like it, than it would perhaps be easier for me to ascribe that mindset to the man. Whatever Mose' issue, Mose describes it using a word that would otherwise be translated: stupid, difficult, hard, heavy, thick, or laden [by the way did I mention that in the Old Testament there is no word that directly translates as to 'Stutter'? hmm.] And Our Creator decided that it was a significant enough of an issue that He directed Moses to use Aaron as a spokesman to the public in Mose' stead. :-) You may of course feel free to continue ascribing whatever motives onto Biblical Prophets as you desire. :-)

Belle: "Galen, I would love to see your work on marriage and anything else you've worked on. I feel pretty inadequate when it comes to major doctrinal discussions but I'm sort of seeing how that attitude comes from years of being second-guessed and made to feel like I'm inferior intelligence-wise to my ex and the TWIt leaders." Being second-guessed and made to feel inferior is not anything that should have happened anywhere in life. I am sorry that such happened to you. Yes I understand, from my reading here on Greasespot Cafe that these things were common among fellowships in TWI. If I did not respect and empower Bonnie, then going out to sea and leaving her with the fellowship and investments at home, would have been much more difficult. I was once criticized here on Greasespot Cafe, but I do see marriage as more of a business partnership. Bonnie has specific roles and I have specific roles. My roles and hers are different, neither is more important than the other, they are just different. She is the steward of my household when I am not present. She carries my General Power of Attorney, and as such, Bonnie often does our banking. Bonnie has bought houses in my name, she has owned businesses, and she is very capable on her own. I don’t know if our marriage would be as solid as it is, if I did not respect Bonnie and hold her as having very important opinion, skills and knowledge. She is an excellent bookkeeper, she is a certified teacher [K-12], and she is our 'bread-winner'. Bonnie and I are together because ‘WE’ prosper far more than either of us could alone. It is far cheaper for two to live together as a team, than for them to live apart. As a team ‘WE’ are capable of doing more, seeing more and prospering more. She decided to heartily take on the role of 'bread-winner', while she was leading a lady's weekend once in Virginia in 1982. The idea of being responsible for providing food and clothing for her household; while buying and selling land, employing her own servants, and running her own business; was something that she wanted to do, and she has done. Who am I to take her roles away from her? She found them from the scripture and it would be wrong of me to even think of taking away from someone their 'duties'. I provide housing and transportation. It totally upsets my father [who is a Baptist] that I am not the 'bread-winner'. But you read Proverbs and tell me how to walk away still thinking that a man is supposed to cloth and feed the family. How could a man, any man, wish to ‘yolk’ himself with a woman who he did not respect? Or why would a woman wish to yoke with a man who dis-respected her? Bonnie and I have traveled together for years. She is a constant influence in my life [aside from Our Lord]. Many times our fellowships have been just her and I. She ‘sees’ things in The Word, that I might not, only if I am open to her can she teach me. Now obviously she does not contradict me in public, as such would be disgracing me, I don’t think that such would have ever occurred to her. She respects me as well :-) The entire ‘Christian’ community gets this topic goofy. In Christ we are equally yoked. Look in any Bible dictionary and see what it says about ‘Harlot’. Everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon and claim that all harlots are prostitutes. But does the Bible say that? Well, no. It does say that Rahab was an harlot, though. It also says that she was righteous. Do you know how many people are named ‘righteous’ in the Bible? Very few. Prostitution = sin, Harlot= righteous, so somehow those Bible dictionaries are missing something. Besides we are talking about the ‘Christ-line’ here right? The grandmother of David. And what about Deborah the tailor’s wife? Wasn’t she a Prophet of God? I do agree that in general a man should be the ‘Head of the Household’, though picture the military. NO, hold it right there. Some reading this will have already formed in their minds what the military is like, well shut up and go join the marines. People are always talking about “the way it is done in the military” and they are so often full of $hit. Watching the movies is good for entertainment, but not to learn about life. The military is a huge corporation; they will train people sometimes for years to do their job. Do you think they are going to allow some aristocratically born nobleman to then order a highly trained technician to march into machinegun fire? [Well again, maybe in the marines] If your training took two years to learn how to handle that nuclear reactor, and you are expected to know everything there is on how best to do things with that nuclear reactor, then why would you be expected to follow the orders of some ignorant idiot who wants to polish his own ego, just because his training included how to hold a teacup with a pinky sticking out? If I am the ‘System Expert’ on system ‘A’, then anyone onboard who wants to know what system ‘A’ can do, must ask me. The Captain may ‘want’ to go and do a thing, and he may well ‘order’ me saying: “Petty Officer Young go and use system ‘A’ to do blah”. Now I can say: “Aye Aye, Captain”. Or I can say: “Aye Captain, though may I point out that system ‘A’ is not designed to do that task and it would more easily be done by using system ‘B’, sir”. Or I could say: “Aye, Captain I believe that System ‘B’ would be faster, and I can immediately accomplish the task using system ‘B’, if I may, sir”. Now if he is a complete idiot he has the option of directing me the continue using system ‘A’ to attempt to accomplish the task. Or if he respects me [and my technical skills] he will consider my advice and direct me to perform the task by whatever method is most expedient. If a husband wants to be an idiot, than he can ignore his wife as an important partner in his life; a valuable resource, a capable assistant, and a deep pool of knowledge, But in so doing he will prove himself to be an idiot. If a woman ‘wants’ to marry such a man, I am sorry about the choice, I would have to imagine that she will eventually regret making that choice. :-)

Oakspear: "while I made every picture-day, my photo never appeared in any year-book" "I knew it! You're a vampire!" My high-school had some form of dis-function. I went to Ceres High my freshman year, then transfered to Merced High for Sophmore/Junior/Senior [a move of like 40 miles]. We did not know it at the time, but apparantly the office never performed all of their functions, so I was not 'placed' into a class, until close to graduation. I was not included in the offical 'listing' of graduating seniors, and nobody felt that it was important to tell me, until just a few months prior to graduation. At that time, we were informed that I had not taken their normal classes that a freshman takes and since I had not taken them during my three years at Merced, I had not completed their requirements for graduation. So I was suddenly heaped with lots of extra credit stuff to be able to accomplish graduating. I had been working fulltime since my sophmore year, and by the december-school-break of my senior year I had already enlisted in the US Navy, and was just waiting to graduate so I could go to bootcamp. I did feel slightly put out that no body in the highschool had felt it neccesary to review my records, or matriculate my courses, or even inform me that there might be a problem. :-) But over-all and in hind-sight it does explain why my picture was never included in the yearbooks.

ex10: "it's a tuff, tuff Christian world out there, galen." I agree. "After all, most Christians that I know believe in the golden rule. Maybe it doesn't apply here, though, if you know more than everybody else." Did I present myself as knowing more than everyone else? I am sorry about that. Such was not my intent. "Ps since I know you are the total exception to most of life, I don't expect you to take me very seriously." I did not intend to sound like I was 'blowing you off', again not my intent. I 'think' that I do try to take your input seriously. I do know that it is a big world out there. There most certainly are lots of denominations our there. A lot of them are social groups, some focus on their ministry; some push their classes, etc. I fully understand that some were hurt by TWI [notice that I no longer 'follow' them], I bucked their system and I was thrown out by their leadership many times [well I don’t know, is 3 many?]. But I do like PFAL. I don’t see the 'law of believing' as an absolute, rain falls on saint and sinner alike. We do live on a world that is ruled by our adversary, who does really bad things. Taking all things with a grain of salt, I still 'like' PFAL. Sorry :-) The 'law of gravity' is not an absolute. Birds fly and men fly. Men escape our gravity well and leave it to go out into space. Does that mean that for them our law of gravity does not apply? No it certainly does not. That law is still in place, but it is not a law entirely in isolation. There exist other laws, and other forces, which also effect things. I don’t see many laws as being absolute. 'Death and taxes' are said to be absolute laws. Though I know men who legally avoid income-taxes [and I count my name among them], and I 'hope' that one day there will be believers who avoid death. "that's ok. I do believe in alternate dimensions of life. Some people somehow live in an alternate universe. Yes, I do believe in life on other planets." I how found that many people who live here on the same planet as us, also live in entirely different 'dimensions' :-) Life on other planets? I have no idea. "love you, dear." And I you.

You are absolutely correct, sir. I should add, we have a class 'A' motorhome, and I do frequent a Motorhome forum. A lot of those guys do appear to be using those annoying 'free' dial-up servers. So I still hear about them. Also there are an encredible amount of wifi zones beign setup coast-to-coast, lots of stores, malls, truck-stops, Restaurants, etc. It all means a lot of places that you can just pull into a parking lot and logon to the internet. :-)

That is still dealing with a bank though, No need to do that is there? Unless he does not want to carry the note for you.

ex10: "galen, getting back to our original interchange, i think you totally misunderstood me, dear." Yes, sorry. Too many off-topics running to keep it straight. :-) "It is a wonderful world out there. We rather like BG Leonard’s class, we like PFAL, we like doing Word-Studies, we like fellowshipping with others and ministering to them." "We have dealt with a few churches, though so often we have found that they are businesses with bottom-lines that they must meet each month and they are often driven by that dollar amount." "Overall we do prefer home-based Bible study groups and pastoring." "It saddens me that so many were abused by TWI, as it saddens me that so many have been abused by the Baptists from which I find my roots. My wife’s roots are Catholic and we all know how many have been / and still are abused from within that fold." "There is a great and wonderful world of Christians out there, but we must look for them and bless them, somehow even while we are on guard for tyrants and abusive systems." Bless you.

excathedra: "i'm lost too. can anyone post on this site ? i don't know if i would but just asking...." Yes. register, and send a message to the guy running it. He may 'approve' your login and 'poof' your "in". :-)

coolchef1248@adelphia.net: "i ran many pfal classes and of course our house was cleaned by the wabots! not me! and when i wasn't running a class i was cleaning the lc house!! what an a$$ iwas." You never cleaned your own house for a class? I am sorry, but I dont recall anyone ever helpign to clean a house of mine. 'wabots'? are they cheap? lsited in the yellowpages? You cleaned the LC house? LOL I know for a fact that I never cleaned a LC home. LOL No, really did you? :-)

Thomas Loy Bumgarner: "Mike and Galen, if Power for Abundant Living is so great class, then take each section/chapter, either live or video and then allow the group discuss what they saw or heard to get feedback, and don't correct them in front of others. Instead, say "that''s an interesting point or observation. I wonder why I didn't see that", then privately in love and tenderness, show them from scripture where they are wrong. But, remember that they are seekers and don't know the Bible, and for heavens sake allow a variety of translations, not just King James. Thomas" You are certainly welcome to do it anyway you desire. :-) As I have stated many many many times before, we usually like to have dinner. Then a round of prayer and manifestations, maybe some songs. A segment or two of the class [depending on how late it is], end with a prayer and then hanging out and sharing or whatever until each person has to go home [again assuming that they dont all live in the same home with us, as I have already explained most of the time we have had lots of boarders living with us]. Personally I do prefer the KJV, as do most of the Mennonites that we associate with. But not everyone carrys such, some prefer other versions. You are certainly welcome to do things in your home, as you wish. I would thank you for not requiring that I do things in my home in the way that you think best. Thank you. :-) If I dont think something is 'interesting' then I prefer not to lie. I am fully capable of holding my tongue, and simply not saying anything. Personally I prefer that not say anything, rather than say something that I know to be err.

Often ministering to people is just: listening to their problems, helping out when they need help, hosting a dinner, tuning a car, sharing a cookbook, babysitting a child, or maybe showing what you have been reading from the Scripture, maybe if someone has a question taking it first to the Lord in prayer and then showing them how to perform a word-study on the topic. We have always been open to a meal with everyone in the fellowship, before we turn to the Word. Assuming that we dont go bowling instead. To us such was how we have always ministered to those in our fellowship. :-)

And how many beleivers still have to go out and find a JP to marry them? Any ministry that is not willing to perform all the services of clergy for their own members, needs to reconsider the topic. :-)

Ever consider the effect that Charleton Heston playing Moses had on our culture's mental image of that Biblical character. Now that it is firmly buring into everyone's mind, try to read the Bible seeing that the real Moses stuttered, and had no public leadership abilitys. He never spoke directly to the people of Israel, he had to use his prophet for all public speaking. But it is difficult for us to imagine such after we have all watched the movie. Mel Gibson no doubt tried his best to be accurate to his beleifs. Was he fully accurate to the Biblical account? If not then he has frimly set into all veiwer's minds error. Correcting that error in any beleiver's mind will be terribly difficult. I have heard it taught that there is good reason NOT to watch some movies. :-)

Belle- Someday I will share an exhaustive word-study that our fellowship did on 'marriage'. It simply did not go in any direction that we could have predicted. And yet I have many times heard things taught which would be in direct conflict, with what the Bible clearly says. :-)

I find it amazing how our minds are 'built' by the metaphor of our language. But given an entirely different set of words linked to an other set of metaphor, and trying to understand that light through that 'different window'. Is interesting. For one to say; "let loose the dogs", and your mental image would possibly be one of dogs running wild in all directions. To another to say: "let loose the dogs", and their mental image might well be one of them charging forward to: find, pursue, define and isolate the target that they seek. I would well imagine yet another culture wherein saying: "let loose the dogs", would be used in the context of a hard jerk forward as the dogs leap to pull you along, you and sled across the tundra that is. It is both amazing and interesting how sometimes to shift from our 'western' mindset into that 'Eastern' mindset is so easily hindered. :-)

Vickles- And? :-)

I dont kow what the 'actual' policy was or when. In 1985 - 1986, while running classes in California, we had to run to one coutny to get a single session, run it then the next day run it off to another county to swap for the next session, etc. A couple times I had to run into Sacremento to get sessions from the limb office. One year we were under the Modesto branch, the next year we were under the Fresno branch, but each time we would go somewhere to get a tape, we would be 'grilled'. "Who are you?" "Why are you running PFAL?" "Isn't there a corspe who should be doing this?" It was during one of these classes that someone in the limb office gave me a copy and told me to keep it, use it whenever I needed a copy for running classes and to avoid contact with corpse as they would just get into further arguements over who should be able to hold PFAL, while making it more difficult to run classes. Later in 1988, we were trying to run a PFAL class in Scotland [okay I was dumb and had left my copy of PFAL buried in a sealed cache back stateside]. And whiel dealing with Gartmore we had trouble getting PFAL to run. So we contacted HQ and were told to contact Paul Norcross, so we tried. and tried. and tried. And had to explain why we were running a PFAL class, and why I was not Corpse, and why we did not have any corpse in our fellowship, and why we had signed up students to sit through the class, and finally someone contacted Kent and told him to loan us a PFAL class. . Again I do not know exactly when or where policy may or may not have shifted concerning who or what may run a PFAL class. I know what we have had to deal with. I know that the general attitude that I personally had to deal with was one of wanting only corpse to do it. But it was a problem when in fact most twigs did not have corpse in them, so someone else had to run the class. :-)

Scary We moved back stateside, and we let the kids play around the neighborhood. I got the local newspaper and within a couple months we had a drive-by shooting 2 blocks away, then I was noticing 'attempted' child-abductions on my block [men driving by and trying to pull girls into their cars]. Man some places crime is just terrible.