Galen

TheEvan: "I'm not sure "corpse" is meant as an insult in this case, HCW. It was coined on these boards long ago, probably by a corpse, errrr, corps person. Just part of the general lunacy of this place. I certainly take no offense." Bless you :-)

ex10: "As I wrote on another thread, you are always going to be an outsider looking in. You will never really understand the insider perspective. Whatever...." This is possible. I do understand that everyone here keeps saying that while you were 'in' you all tried to help and to be godly. Fine, no doubt you did. So why was it that from: nation to nation, state to state, that I traveled, that so many of us traveled, the blight to ministering to people was a single group of people. Spiting in a man's face, screaming, ordering divorces, abortions, ordering us NOT to attend to our sick, ordering us NOT to run PFAL classes even after possible students have signed-up and paid. . . . Not just one Branch Coord, not just one Limb Coord, Just from my own experiences, I speak. From nation to nation, state to state, coast to coast, I have traveled. The 'good' freindly helpful trusting godly loving WC grads that I have met face-to-face in my life were each on probation, or M/A'ed. Obviously you say that so were you, so obviously you were. Obviously I have spoken in err. I speak from my experiences, from what I have seen and heard and from when I have been physically assaulted by WC grads. from when I have been mal-ligned and booted from fellowship. I dont mean, I dont intend to be insulting to you. But at the same time, how do I reconcile my experiences with what you are saying? I dont know. When I talk to old friends, they dont wnat to speak about TWI anymore. They dont mind the idea of fellowship, or biblestudies, or prayer, they dont want any old WC to be around. Why do so few Ex-Way-Fers come here? It brings up to many old and bad memorys, memorys of people that hurt them. I am not talking about VPW or LCM, who ever met them? Just talking about WC Twig-Co's [after they booted the Joe Beleivers from those positions], and Branch-Co's and Limb-Co's. You know who I mean the 'leadership'. Yes Ex, I will never 'understand'. "Think about this. You would never have your precious PFAL if it weren't for the way corps." Why? I dont follow this statement. Do you mean it was film with the assistance of WC? possibly. But wasn't he teaching the class even before the WC program began? :-)

I should add that the ladies that smashed beer cans in such a manner, were NOT in our fellowship. :-( More like an American version of a 'dog and pony' show. I did have occasion a few times to go in and drag out sailors from such shows, both stateside and overseas.

HCW: "Chiefly spoken of Levitical uncleanness, both of persons and animals.... Unclean and impure in a Levitical and moral sense." Very nice. "Numbers 5:12 which says: "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him, V:13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, " If a wife goes astray, and commits trespass, and lies carnally with a man, and hides it from her husband, and they keep it secret, THEN she is defiled? Wohh, back up a couple steps there. It wold seem to me that the defiling happened sometime before that last and final step there. But see, that is thinking with my carnal mind again. God seems to have entirely different difinitions. "I'm sure it also included spiritual uncleanness. which would include possession (TRUE possession, not the TWI version; "I don't like you or what you've said or done, so YOU are possessed!")." From the context I should think that this was the primary focus of the text, in the Levitical and moral sense. "In other words... NO. God would NOT have a spouse to stay in a morally abusive realtionship, even if it is a marriage. Um... ah, is ANY abuse moral? I think NOT." Today's society is ever changing. Today we are very sensitive to physical 'abuse', yesterday they were not. Today we consider slavery to be a moral wrong, yesterday they did not. In the case of slavery, the Bible does mention it and in fact lays down guidelines for handling the slave issue. There exists a single verse mentioning the existance of 'spanking', and that one verse is jumped onto by many denominations to justify it. Does that one verse also justify all household corporal punishement? I dont know. So you think when looking at the Bible's never-changing statutes, through today's ever-changing moral ideal's as a filter we can see that it's guide for today is to conclude that "uncleaness" really means 'abusiveness'? Hmm, could be. "In fact, what God said, even though He HATES divorce he said, "If you find your spouse to be morally unclean, in ANY way, write up the divorce papers, put them right in their hand and put THEM out of the house." Wow really, what verse did you find that: "in any way" from? I do need to read it again. I do see the example of Moses [who had the Egyptian wife and then also the Hebrew wife], and Paul whose Hebrew wife is never mentioned except to say that he no longer was with her.

HCW: "I doubt that socks knows this but his life was an inspiration to me that helped me towards developing my own God-given talents. I was one of the thousands of people his personal ministry touched and had a very positive effect on. There are many many people born again today that made the decision to do so in direct respsonse to what they saw of socks. He is quite simple one of the finest people ever to wear the gree nametag." Than I am saddened that I did not have the opportunity to have met him. From what I saw, when a person went out from HQ into the 'field' for their interim-year, they routinely 'bumped' the previously existing Twig Coordinator and took over the existing twig. Whoever was the local twig Coordinator previously, and their work [in terms of briging in new people, running classes, meeting people's needs]. If you had split your twig into 2 or even 4 twigs, and were functioning as a Branch-Coordinator, stand-by. As a WC grad would soon be on the scene to boot you out and take-over. [well as soon as the Limb noticed what you had done]. I know of one couple [Mike- this is you friends Frank and Patricia in San Diego], who had a Twig, but developed some Tagolog speakers so they began a second Twig [at different times] in Tagolog. But then they started getting a lot of Spanish-pople. So they studied Spanish, and started a Spanish-Twig [on different days]. They commonly would be running as many as 4 fellowships out of their home, in three languages. But everytime the limb caught on to what was happening, in went WC-grads to break it all up. Break-up the branch, appoint seperate WC-grads to each English twig, and forget those Spanish and Tagolog folks, they dont need a fellowship. Is that what Socks did? I saw what WC did while they operated in the Limb Offices. Frank and Patricia saw what they did when they ventured away from the Limb Office. Joe Beleivers fought these WC tooth and nail for years. The only WC that I saw that: "helping others", ministering to the needy, and listening to God's call; where those WC who were obviously not 'in favour' and were in fact on some form of probation. Was this Socks? "Referring to him as "corpse" speaks death upon him as life & death ARE in the power of the tongue. ...." I had not thought of it as such. I do know many who: "Whereas one cannot diminish the acoomplishments of those of us who really gave of our lives in service (there IS a JOY in service) to God's people" Un-fortunately are you truly sure that such distinction goes to WC-grads? From my very limited expereinces, it would be difficult to imagine such. I realize that this sounds as an insult. But have I not stated my case enough times, already? How many examples do I need explain? I read though other posts, and readily see many examples of others listing the many evils done by WC-grads. As for me, I can only speak to that which I have seen and heard. "making such a reference as "corpse" like that ONLY dimishes the USER of the term." Nothing defiles me to the extent as those things of which I have seen WC-grads do to innocent beleivers. "I now see, at this point in my spiritual growth & development, that when I allow how I feel ablout what an "a$$hole" did to me to effect my life in ANY way - - the "a$$hole" wins." True. "They are what they are, what they were they were. Now here today, because you are mad at THEM, you insult socks and me, and all others who fall into the category as sock said...." Presuming that you are in fact, such a being as I never met, I apologize. I could only wish that somewhere I could have served in the same limb as you or Socks did, perhaps I would have seen otherwise. From my exposure to the Way Ministry, WC were a huge burden on the beleivers, and they singularly chased away more beleivers and did more harm then anything else that I am aware of [including any poor doctrine]. But again that was just from my extremely limited exposure of such a short term of years, and in only 6 states and 2 countries. :-)

I have seen that many times the 'first' contractor to provide a service does manage to get way more money than seems reasonable for what services they offer. But when that contract is up, then everything goes to an open bid. Which is when any company can jump in there and low-bid, which saves the nation money. It is true that at times, some companys do charge crazy fees for items or services, with ethics guidelines in place and watch-dog groups and IG inspections, these slowly are removed. It does sound like your friend is 'happy' to have been on the recieving end of the good money for a while. I dont see what any of this has to do with 'patriotism'. To me 'patriotism' is volunteering to help the country, or enlisting to be a servicemember. Otherwise it is just a job. Jobs come and go. He should be happy that he knowingly had an over-paid job for a short while. There are people who will never be in that position. I wold hope that he made good use of that level of income and invested while he could. I have seen many who knew ahead of time, that they were going to get showered with money, and knew that the extra money was not going to last very long. In the cases that I have known, they each went out and drank that extra money, or gave it to a girl-friend; so when it did run out, they were jsut as broke as if they had never gotten the big bonuses. Hmm, a 'fellow' and his money getting soon seperated, is that it? :-)

Hamm- “Galen, tough call sometimes.” I agree, it is a ‘walk’. Commonly there simply are not hard fast yes/no answers. “I think the thing was really taken to extremes.” Many issues that we deal with here on GS [as well as in life in general] were often taken to extremes that made no sense. If an idiot takes something and carries it to absurd extremes do we still blame the original item, or hold it blameless and find the fault with the person who took it to such an absurd extreme? “Sure, you and I at times could do some real good things, speak things perhaps that a prophet MIGHT- but somehow, the idea that you can mix so many of hours of PFAL in a persons brain and equal the "office of a prophet' is just a little repugnant to me.” Okay. I see. I was not thinking of “The office of a prophet” as being such a big deal. A prophet is just a person that is needed by Our Heavenly Father to go and tell someone something. Moses was a great Prophet of God for many years. But we see others like Balaak who were goofs. Jonah was a prophet, but he did not want to go and tell the people of Ninevah God’s message, that was why he ran for Spain, on the other hand, what did Jonah do the rest of his life? We don’t know, it looks like he was only called upon to do this one thing. During the time of Moses, God needed someone for a long-time. But during other times God only needed someone to stand and speak a single message and then shut-up again. So the ‘Office of a Prophet’ is not necessarily a life calling. “They figured that with enough religous training, they somehow could do the work of a prophet- on command. That's what I observed.” I certainly don’t dis-agree that such happened. Though I would chaff at the idea of anyone ‘commanding’ God on who and when the work of a Prophet is needed. “They instantly become Word of Knowledge experts- on everything- why you oughta do this, why you oughta do that. Why you should quit your job. Why you shoud do .. fill in the blan,. This was my direct observation.” Okay, yes that is a good observation. I commonly found that many corpse acted in this manner. They acted as complete experts on everything. Mostly on areas that they knew nothing. Young single people who acted like marriage counselors, or who to raise children. On the other hand, we have known a few who did not, but admittedly the ‘cool’ people were corpse who were realistically on their way out. They were no longer in favour and were on some form of probation. “God forbid that I would lay to your charge of being some kind of counterfiet.” Your neat too. “And further- I meant no harm to you, Galen. From what I read of your posts, you have taken what good you got from the ministry and are seeing some results. Same here. I just don't buy all of it, anymore. You were unfortunate enough to witness me spitting out some real junk. Sorry..” Don’t worry about it. See, we mostly agree. I don’t mean to imply that we should accept everything that was taught, either. “But, it's your thread- what do you think? At least for me, just remembering that thing about "owing my life to the ministry" really got me going.” I just started the thread, I don’t own it. You would have to speak with Paw about it’s ownership. I don’t owe my life to a ministry, I doubt whether you would either. Yes I recall hearing that phrase but it was garbage then and now. J “If all of PFAL is God-breathed, then ….” I only said that I like PFAL, and we run it within our fellowships. Please don’t confuse me with ours who might say it is G-d breathed. J “What I witnessed- people PRESUMED to be some kind of prophet, or apostle- may have not claimed it, but sure acted like it. And their "prophecies" proved to be as genuine as a three dollar bill. Funny, lots of them are still involved, busy running whole regions.” Wow how self-important. Does not surprise me though. “In a lot of ways, I think a lot of what I learned in PFAL was OK- just don't think it's worhty of being given Godhood..” LOL “hope I didn't hurt you.” Not at all, we cool. I do find interesting, that everytime I speak of my dealings with Corpse, I manage to insult many Ex-Corpse. Though at the same time, others [like you in this case] totally agree with seeing everything that I saw [corpse being totally out of control, egotistical a$$holes]. So obviously I was NOT the only one who saw this stuff. hmm.

It does soak up the soup too. Keeps flavours to be savoured later. Just got to keep it in a pony-tail while on the freeway, as it keeps flying up in my face otherwise. :-)

I did not get the idea that these were THAT big. I have seen large-breasted-ladies smash empty beer cans with a breast. :-)

I have known a few guys who did follow it pretty much as a column in one of the investments magazines. After advising them on their taxes for a few years, I could never see that the investment advice did them any good.

Most of my towels were originally from these bolts of white terry cloth. So they are all white and easier to bleach. It is hard to find mis-matched ones. :-)

hmmm, so far: Those who report they did not go through TWI w/o divorce - 4 Thsoe who married in TWI and are still together - 10 :-)

Hammeroni: "Another thought about the "being able to believe to rise up to do the function of a Prophet"- It's ludicrous." I have read this said now a few times. A prophet simply speaks for G-d. I don't see the big problem with the idea that, someday as I am doing what I do, hearing/feeling the little nudge "look over there, see that guy, he needs to be blessed", and when I get there "tell him it's okay things like this happen in life, tomorrow is a new day with new opportunitys", so I tell him exactly what I hear to tell him. When I am done, I walk away. My job is done. Our Heavenly Father wanted something said to this guy, and I said it. During that moment I acted as a prophet. Am I a prophet? Not really, not that I know of. Of course the person does not really know do they. None of this means that I walk full-time with the ministry of a prophet. I am simply a son, doning what my Father needs to be done. I dont see the big deal in saying that at sometime, the body of Christ may need you to perform a given function. "What's God gonna do? Make you a "prophet of the day"? Makes no sense to me. "Here you go kid, you mastered da class right, I'll let you be a prophet for just a little while, then I'll yank it back when the "real deal" comes along". What happened to the gifts and calling of God being without repentance?" I dont see the big deal. If your not a prophet than great, your not. So what. I dont see how that stops Our Heavenly Father from calling on you to go do something every now and again. I dont see this as being 'given' something and then later it being yanked away from you. In my life, there have been times when I needed to do or tell people things, and I did. Now after the event happened, I was no longer needed to do anything. Okay fine so I continue doing my job anyway, big deal. Once in Naploi Italia, I was in charge of 40 MPs and we nightly met at a tratoria for cuppachinos, this one day however I knew that I needed to change our routine. I did not know why, just that it did. The field commanders that worked immediately for me, balked at the change and argued the matter, but I insisted. I found a new tratoria for us to meet at, that night everyone on shift met at the regular place, but we did not all go in, we left and they all began to follow me to the new place. As we left the parking lot, the building blew up. One of my guys lost 'girl friend' [really she wasn't, she was a Polish-slave who he liked, but he did not want to spend the pack of marlboros that she would have cost him]. Anyway everyone under my command walked away un-hurt. That night they knew that they were alive because I had known that we should no longer hang out at that tratoria. Later it did help in ministering to some of the kids who worked for me, and on the grand scale God did gain the glory. Now I do not imagine that I am a prophet, but that does not stop My Heavenly Father from using me, as He wishes, when He wishes, to deliver messages to people. Nothing is being 'yanked' away from me, when He does not wish to use me. "This teaching simply allowed whoever wished to scream loud enough, or wanted to be confrontational enough, no matter how corrupt or counterfiet the individual was, to somehow be allowed the priviledge of doing "da work of the Lord"." I dont know how to respond to this, for example. I only saw a select group of people act in this manner. They generally wore rings, and they self-indentified with each other. They were a finite group. They fit your description nicely. I could name this group but when I do it upsets others here on GS. I think that you know who I mean. From my exposure to the Way Ministry, this one group of people were a huge burden on the beleivers, and they singularly chased away more beleivers and did more harm then anything elses that I am aware of [including any poor doctrine]. I will allow you to imagine who this 'group' is. I dont see how you can blame PFAL for this group of people who destroyed so many beleivers.

Oh my Gawd, what an ugly mug. Did you see that?

Toilet seat down? I find that it takes a wee more than that.

Belle: "...and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house." "Galen, what is your definition of "uncleanness", then? Are you saying it IS or ISN'T sexually related? " No doubt you have heard this many many times, from while within TWI, but I have no difinition for it. Only the Bible can define it. I have not done an exhaustive study of "uncleanness" lately. From what I do recall [we did do a study on it once] it had to do with 'kosher'. It most certainly was NOT 'dirtiness'. I seem to think it was like anything not close to G-d, or following His Will. Mind you, if you really wanted to know for sure you should look it up. But you know that. It is amazing how so many jump onto the same bandwagon in these issues, whatever a bible dictionary says... Kind of like the 'Harlot' word. Anything to drag down the integrity of G-d. :-) "BTW, I'm glad that I was given the bill of divorcement but got to stay in the house!" I am sure.

Belle: "LOL! I can't say I blame you, nandon. I was in my late 20's when I went to Indiana for the AC and had to shower with other women for the first time in my life. It was uncomfortable for me then. ESPECIALLY when I had to shave my legs! I think I only shaved them twice the whole two weeks! " You know that shaving only makes those hairs more rough when they do grow back.

alfakat: "so everybody else wasn't, Galen?? you a mind-reader?? you all-knowing, like God?? what is the point of your smart crack, then??" Smart crack? hmm. No, I am not a mind-reader, I dont think that I ever said such. Not all-knowing, either, but then again, I did not so I was, thank you. To say whether one person was better at hiding things than another person, I would not know. If you desire this to be smart-cracking then fine. IT still does not change the facts that most Joe Beleivers never met either VPW or LCM, and as such neither 'hid' anythign from the public. In the vien that how do you hide somehting from somene you will never meet? My exposure to your smart-cracking, was via going to fellowships in people's homes. Helping them, whether fixing their cars, or household appliances, or whatever people have as needs in their life. In fellowships we studied the Bible and did Word-studies. I am not sure what context this has with whether one guy could hide things better than another guy, both of which I have neve met. And dont really care which of them could hide things better. We were in a Ministry to help people, not suck up to some man. :-)

Oakspear: "I guess I was just too focused on my career and minstering to others, to really pay it any attention. Sorry." "But not too busy to pay attention to all the "abusive Way Corpse" as you often put it." I only 'paid attention' to the ones that either: got into my face, or that got in my way. I rarely stepped a single foot out of my path to interface with a corpse. Fortunately most times, it took long drives to go into some area to even find a corpse grad. Just like most other 'Joe Beleiver' I was rarely in an area that included any corpse, so most of the time to find one, I would had to travel to a Limb office. When I went into a Limb Office, or bookstore, I dont think that I ever did it with the desire to confront a Corpse-nazi, it was to do the work of the ministry, to minister to others. Had there been anyone else in a Limb Office, I would have greatly prefered dealing with them instead. Annual Limb 'Corpse-recruitment' Meetings, or arranging to get PFAL tapes and flip-charts to begin another class; where generally the only times that I had to interface with them. I imagine that if I had been 'blessed' to be in some area, that actually had corpse-leadership assigned to it, then I might well have had occasion to have spent more time with them, but alas I was only an average Joe Beleiver. I assure you that I have learned ALOT while here on Greasespot. I never interfaced with even 1% of ALL the abusive Corpse. From what I have read here, there were hundreds of really abusive ones out there. I doubt whether I have ever met 100 corpse-nazi, in my entire time in The Way. All that being said, there was a time when I did have 2 corpse-couples assigned to my twig, they were both on probation and not allowed to be Twig Coordinators. They were 'under' me, in my twig, for a few months. One couple had great hearts for helping people and were really focused on doing that, which is why they were booted. The second couple major ring-knockers and would never give anyone a chance to forget that they were wonderful Way-Corpse, they were booted because the husband was an enlisted sailor and had to move each time he was re-stationed by the Navy [for refusing to go where The Way dictated they were booted]. :-)

vickles: "There were things going on from the beginning. Just that some didn't see it until later. You think that it changed over night? It was always there. Vpw was able to hide it better than lcm is all." I dont know. Having only been in TWI for such a short period of time [1979-1997], I have never met either VPW or LCM. I did 'see' LCM from a great distance at the one Rock of Ages that I attended. He appeared to the public at the evening services in the big circus tent. So I truly have no idea of how well either of them hid anything. I guess I was just too focused on my career and minstering to others, to really pay it any attention. Sorry.

Oakspear: "If you are to be a witness in a court case you must be careful about what you say so as not to prejudice the case. She is saying that she is not hampered by the courtroom thing.." I have had to testify in a court, was while I was serving as a MP. 3 years in Ct, and 3 years in Europe. And again stateside in Juvenile court for custody hearings, as a foster-parent. When I testified, I had to be focused on telling the truth. Factual and detailed, without opinions or conjecture. [unless I was asked for my opinion]. I answered what I was asked, and did not volunteer anything extra. That was my understanding of what all witnesses are supposed to be doing. I have not felt 'hampered' by the need to testify, nor have I felt the 'need' to be careful. I speak what I know to be true, or else I try to clarify that what I am saying is my opinion. That is why I dont hessitate to use people's names here on Greasespot. Libel and slander must first be something other than factual history. Yes, I know that we have had discussion about using other characters in people's names, to hide their identity. I followed the discussions, and saw that Paw was non-commital on the issue. Some people walked away 'saying' that rules had now been setup. I did not see any, and thus far Paw has not commented to me that I need to stop speaking as my manner is. thus I speak as my manner is. If a potential future juror is going to hear what I say, and possibly be sub-consciously influenced by what I say now, then the person can be honest. When you are asked by the judge if you honestly have any prior knowledge. If you want to lie, the blood is on you at that time. :-)

Ooops, my apology. I did try to read it previously but, found it perplexing. I was not stateside for Waydale and as such have not seen it. I got 'here' during the first Greasespot Cafe on EZ-board. I thought that Paw was the moderator of this board? but I confess that I simply do not study the interal-workings and politics of those here that closely. my apology for intruding. :-) It is amazing how much the 'internet' changes with each decade. The last time I was stateside, we were doing stuff with BBS's and FIDONET. Lived overseas for another tour, using 12.2 dial-ups for e-mail access [when power-spikes did not threaten], but no surfing [like all of Europe]. Come back stateside and found DSL. WOW

I married Bonnie in 1980? I think. At the time she was an AC grad, was a intermediate-class level beleiver. I met her at a truck-stop, while I was driving around the country with a group of bikers [back then it took a few days on the road to straighten out my mind after each patrol under-water :-) ]. She had been kicked out of TWI, for refusing to be groomed for corpse training. At that time I already had an ordination from a pentacostal church and we hit it off wonderfully. We just celebrated our 25th anniversary. :-)

vickles: "Its a fallacy that everything was great and wonderful because of vpw and twi." Do you mean "because of VPW and LCM, while within TWI"? Or, are you saying that TWI separate from VPW's later problems and LCM was still a problem? "If you did see signs, miracles, and wonders it was not because of vpw or twi but because of God, if it actually was happening at all." Well it certainly did happen, it does happen and will continue to happen. There is a great big wonderful world of Christianity out there, and many Ex-TWI-fers do remain in churches or in home fellowships, studying The Bible, still ministering to others, still worshipping G-d and doing His work... :-)

rascal: "Simply because our collective experiences wouldn`t hold up in a court of law does not in anyway invalidate what we experienced, what we witnessed,...How we were impacted..and because that is recognised here... praise GOD we are ALLOWED to speak of them here....for some of us...it is the first time ever." Huh? If you witnessed something, then you ARE it's witness. Why couldn't you testify to everything that you have witnessed in court? I dont follow. Speak what you want to speak. "... nor hampered by having to support anybody`s elses case in a court of law, and so are allowed much more freedom to examine..." Who cares what is going on in any court room? How does that influence what you can speak about? Outofdafog- "... supervised fellowship" Dont think I ever heard of one of those, can anyone attend? :-)