Galen

Steve Swenton: "I remember ... the Navagators ... They described them as completely paranoid "fundamental" fanatics. The type who would not bend in their beliefs at all, even when proven absolutely wrong. Because of these witnesses, most of us tended to avoid anyone calling themselves a Navigator." I was wondering if anyone else had heard of them, thank you for stepping forward with confirmation that such a group existed. :-) "With that in mind, it's a wonder they didn't break you, Galen, before you were transfered." Thanx. They say [No, I have no idea who 'they' are, it is just a common saying to say: "They say" ], that commonly people repeat their errors. Maybe not individuals, but at least within groups. During my last tour 1997-2001, in Europe, it did appear that some brilliant Chaplain somewhere had discovered a vault filled with old 'Navigator' junk and that he had started spilling that junk out to his congregate. We had a guy [did not work for me, this guy was in another section], who was among the 'later' version of Navigators. His Watch-Commander found him at 02:00 on post [he was assigned as gate-guard for one of our bases, Agnano], he had taken all his bullets out of his magazines, and lined them up on the window ledge of his guard-shack, he had his Bible out and he was preaching a sermon to those bullets. He had named his bullets, with the names of various Catholic 'saints', and he was preaching to them. His Watch-Commander stood there and let him finish his sermon, while someone else was on his way to take-over that guard-shack and releive the 'Navigator'. We never saw that 'Navigator' again. :-)

From one website [http://www.cogh.net/sslesson/acts9_1.php]: From another website [http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0570Saul.html]

Oakspear: "How do we know what the standards for membership in the Sanhedrin were? What is the documentation?" I have it written down here somewhere, maybe someone can find it before I psot it? I know it comes up in the 'Biblical Archeological Review' that I subscribe to. You could probably also find it in your Bible dictionary. "How do we know that Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin?" During Stephen's 'trial' the gathered sanhedrin gave their proxy-votes to Saul, for him to cast. They did it by way of each laying their cloak at Saul's feet. While we dont have a scripture that says when and where he became an elder, we do know that he was among the voting elders at stephen's 'trial' and that he cast the deciding vote. Therefore he must have been one of the sanhedrin.

The scriptures are also silent on the topic of whether or not Jesus had a bride. Being the eldest son of a family, and 30 years old. It certainly would have seemed 'odd' had he not been married ten years previously. And children ... By the standards set forth for judging or determining the Sanhedron and later the same exact standards are set for determining leadership roles within the body of Christ. At least 30 years old, a husband, and a father; then look at the children to see how they are doing and how they are being raised. The idea of 30 years old, and a husband, and a father are all just to get your name in the bucket per say. The only real thing that is described that requires focus is when it comes to examining the children. Since we know that Paul had to meet this standard, and that his guidance is tht we should continue to use that guidance for selecting leaders of the church. It would seem to make sense that Jesus [one generation earlier] certainly would have done the same.

Trefor- Could be.

lindyhopper: "I was saying that it seems more likely that the combination of nurture and nature would be sufficient in causing one to act on a negative behavior one is predisposed for. My view is that demons have nothing to do with it at all, pre or post. Especially seeing how demon are not exactly noticeable." The idea that 'something' [the combination of: nurture, nature, and genetics] would be sufficient in causing one to have a pre-disposition, and to possibly act out on it, or to someday be possessed by the appropriate demon. Kind of sums up what I learned from the PFAL series, as being VPW's teaching. I think a person could easily take that with or without the demon part, and still make it work for many individuals. "I would think that if we were predisposed to sin (a concept I don't agree with) that you wouldn't need demons to tempt you." I don’t think that demons are needed, obviously we screw-up many things all on our own without assistance everyday. Not to mention how many try to do good, get together with others to do good, but yet once 'group-think' is formed they together go off and do something truly horrible. The Spanish Inquisition being a wonderful example. Very dedicated priests, fiercely religious and not doubting in their faith; but 400 years of rapes, tortures, murders, kind of sounds bad. Even though I am sure they meant well. :-)

I must say that I am rather amazed that I am the only one that: "I like sparkling eyes and a nice smile." I guess that I must be 'entirely-different' then everyone else here on GS. Recently I have been told that I am: a heartless SOB, mindlessly stubborn, a bit egocentric, obviously misinformed, cut from a different cloth, and just "different". Which I thought was great, and I took in wonderful humour. But I see that I am truly different from Ya'll. :-)

We have discussed that here on GS as well. This was NOT the first time that American citizen-civilians were attacked on American soil by a foreign power. A previous attack occured on American soil 5 decades before. Thus we built the labour camps along the West Coast for all Asian-Americans including vets from WWI, if they lived in the Western states. As a child, I went to school with the children of those labour-camps. My impression was that America did something else with Asian immigrants, that the labour camps were exclusively for American citizens who were of asian descent. :-)

Trefor Heywood: "No doubt the new Liberty Tower (I hated the design myself) will do also." I thought that 'they' were still arguing over what design to finally build. "But the human side - the deaths and the sacrifices speak even louder. Buildings can be replaced but the people cannot." We lose a lot of civilians, it seems that everytime one nation or group wants to do something, civilians die at their hands. The Armenian genocide of 1915 that killed 1.5 million civilians. WWI [1914-18] had 13 million civilian deaths, The Russian Civil war [1917-22] had 9 million civilian deaths, Stalin's regime killed [1924-1953] 20 million civilians and returning POWs were killed. WWII [1937-45] Hitler killed 5.5 million civilians in camps about half were Jews: The remainder were Romanians, homosexuals, handicapped, Catholics, Poles, and Freemasons. The Nazis also killed: 0.5 million civilians during air raids, 9 million soviet civilians during their Northern push. The Soviets killed 3.9 million POWs, 170,000 minorities, and 1 million Soviet military who had been POWs, but who then tried to return home. Japan killed 200,000 civilians in China during the Nanking massacre, then they killed 200,000 Chinese civilians during germ-warfare, then South-East Asia marches and massacres include 16,000 POWs and 100,000 civilians. America killed 500,000 civilians while bombing Germany, and 360,000 civilians bombing Japan, and 50,000 civilians bombing Romania, and 56,000 POWs died of starvation in our camps. Mussolini killed 224,000 civilians [mostly Ethiopia and Libya civilians, but also 9,000 Greeks, and some Italians]. Romania killed 302,000 civilian Jews in their own non-German death camp France killed 9,000 civilian collaborators. In post-war political purges: Italy killed 15,000 civilians, the Netherlands killed 40 civilians and Norway killed 25 civilians. After WWII another 2.1 million Germans died while being 'expelled' from various East European nations. The Chinese civil war [1945-49] killed 2.5 million civilians. Mao Zedong [1949-75] killed 40 million civilians in various political purges. The occupation of Tibet killed many civilians. During the campaign 1.2 million civilians, then in labour camps 260,000 civilians died, and 65,000 civilians landowners and priests died. It seems to me that commonly civilians do die at the hands of nations and groups. :-)

TheEvan: "Galen, that full Bible course takes around two years to complete...if you work at it steadily. One of your entries, Gifts of the Spirit, is the original from which Wierwille adapted Foundational, Intermediate & Advanced." Could be. I dont know. A couple that was recently in our home-fellowships, had taken Brother Leonard's 'Full Bible Course' course. It did not sound like it took them but a few weeks. From their website they run a new class a couple times each year, from their HQ in Texas and I guess the rest from their site in Canada. I went through the entire listing of what books and courses they sale. Since some courses and books have the same name, I put the two together, assuming that course 'A' must require book 'B'. This was purely an assumption on my part. I dont know which courses and their books correspond with what in TWI-ese. PFAL was sometimes a single class [early on] and sometimes broken into 3 components. None of Brother Leonard's courses and books call themselves [anything that would tell humble me] which one would be the first in the 'Full Bible Course' series. Assuming that it is a seres.

Jbarrax: " ... So God certainly could have communicated a great deal to his Son Jesus even before he put spirit upon him. The major difference in the pre-baptismal Jesus and the post-baptismal Jesus is not what he could learn, but what he could do. Biblically speaking, there's no indication that Jesus had any supernatural power before he was baptized in holy spirit. No healings, no miracles. But he could have been well prepared for that phase of his life by what he had learned, both from the Scriptures and from his Father." I could see that. Also I always wondered, if there wern't angels within the community as he grew up, and if his local synagogue wasn't populated with a number of them, in human form, just to help ensure that he got a full back-ground in all of the Torah. It seems to me that since so much of what Judeans teach is from their oral-traditions, or what they consider the other 'half' of their 'teachings' [half being the written, half being the oral]. That His Father would need to ensure that the oral stuff Jesus was told, was correct. :-)

lindyhopper: "Galen, Wouldn't it be easier to think that instead of demons that the combination of both nuture and nature help determined whether or not a person fell into their predisposition? I don't hear of too many rapests tlaking of their perfect upbringing and how their parents loved and supported them all the time. It seems more common and readily ovservable that one's upbringing combined with genetic predisposition are the cause of terrible behaviors. Demons are kind of hard to document." It never occured to me that demons would have anything to do with your predisposition. Cold you possibly explain how demons would have something to do with forming or changing someone's pre-disposition? I would think that 'pre' would mean something somewhere before the demon ever came into your life. Prehaps your genetics or how you were raised, or what nuturing you recieved? but if you insist that it must be otherwise, hmm. I still dont think so. :-)

Oakspear: "I wasn't clear that I was talking about non-deprogramming-type persuasion" Okay :-)

Then we msut continue to agree to dis-agree. I bow to the obvious corectness of the professional.

I apologize. I had heard the term used in a particular way, and I have used the term in that specific manner. I assumed that such was the meaning of the term. I truly did not know that it had been used for other things. I guess that going to the kind of 'dog and pony' shows that I have seen, kind of burned the image into my mind. Again sorry about the inconvience. My mistake. :-)

O come on now, am I the only guy who likes: "I like sparkling eyes and a nice smile." "A flash of skin [arms, or legs, or stomach] or wiggling hips, or bouncing assests will naturally draw my eye from a block away; but it is eyes and the smile that get my heart-beat thumping." I can possibly be the only one.

I still stand by my first post in this thread: “Because lots of people respected him.” Oakspear- “Noooo..."Ground Zero" is where the world's center of international trade USED TO BE, before cowardly terrorists flew a planeload of innocent people into it.” Well, they thought in their minds that they were at ‘war’, and that is possibly why our military had a hunch that such was coming, long before it did. Long gone- “Galen, I don't think you're a heartless SOB, but sometimes you come across as one.” Thank you. “…For about the tenth time, the attack on the WTC had nothing, nada, zip to do with the WTO. They are two completely different things.” And for no doubt the tenth time, I disagree. It has been a couple years since I last attended one, but I have completed a few courses on anti-terrorism. It is almost ‘ALL’ about symbolism. They do have a legitimate point of view, and strong arguments for their actions. To dismiss them all as ‘crazy’, or without an agenda is insulting both to them, as well as to ourselves. What was attacked was chosen for it’s symbology. I only recall seeing the WTO towers once. It was while we were in NYC to perform a wedding on a ferry crossing. We were offered a tour of them, and told that they were the “world's center of international trade” As Oakspear called them. I don’t care who actually owned them, or what was actually done in them, it was all about symbology. I was at one time told that they were the center of all the world’s international trade. Oakspear was under that impression as well. That is how ‘they’ billed themselves. An immigrant coming into NYC, no doubt was told the same thing. They were a symbol. It could have been used by farmer’s insurance as office space for all I care, They were a symbol of the WTO. Any non-Newyorker, like myself, like an immigrant, like anyone in Europe, like anyone outside of Greasespot, would have assumed that they were what they billed themselves as. They were in some manner connected with World Trade. Yes I know I have said this many times before. “You also come across as a bit egocentric” Again thank you. “Many people loved John Paul II in a very personal way….” I am sure they did, which was why way back at the beginning of all this I stated: “Because lots of people respected him.” Taylor- “The World Trade Organization (WTO) is not (was not) located at the World Trade Center (WTC) in New York. Two totally different organizations.” Wonderful. As I have stated on other threads previously, it was all about the symbol. The commonly excepted symbol. “The "war" as you call it …” Being a US servicemember, yes I call it what I called it when I was still in uniform. Why? Because that is what ‘Islamic Extremists’ would call it. “The WTC represented capitalism, thus was a target;” This was almost taken directly word-for-word from previous posts that I have written, Yes, thank you Taylor for agreeing with me on this topic. Our Empire takes over so many nations, we put in McDonalds on their street corners and Babe-watch on their TVs. ”If you get your perspective on world affairs from episodes of The West (left) Wing you will surely have difficulty understanding much of what goes on in the world.” LOL I gave that as yet another further example of what I have been saying since I got back stateside, Mar’01. Long before I ever saw West-Wing. And right before the WTO attacks. I was thinking that perhaps now that I live here again, it would be some common metaphor that some of you would share, my bad. I have gained my perspective from serving on-board US submarines as ‘Command Intelligence Officer’ and as ‘Intelligence librarian’. I have gained my perspective from living in Scotland for 3 years. I have gained my perspective from living in Italy for 3 years. I have gained my perspective from serving in Kosovo. “If you want to see the face of the enemy, go to Michael Savage's website and watch the videos of the radical muslims beheading Americans and others. Have a VERY strong stomach, but these should be required viewing for every American.” LOL I served. I was awarded for service in Kosovo, killing Christians in the defense of Muslims, while muslims were yet killing and raping native Christian families there. I have ‘seen’ it, I have heard cries, pleadings for mercy. Thank you. Oakspear- “We all have different emotional makeups. We are all affected differently by events of this sort. I don't understand why you feel you must belittle those who were affected.” I did not mean to be disrespectful, of them. I fully acknowledge that they go to the funeral out of respect. I am simply stating that I don’t go unless I knew the person, or I am performing the service. I am very glad that I was able to be among the last wave of retirees allowed right before the ‘stop-loss’ went into effect in preparations for the coming attacks. “I grew up in NYC, I watched the towers go up when I was in elementary school. I worked less than two blocks from them when I was in high school. So...yeah” I did not realize that they had stood so long, when were they built? “Yeah, buildings get destroyed by passenger planes flown by fanatical terrorists every year. They were very big buildings Galen, their absence is notable. Are you that dense, or are you being an (*) on purpose? “ They were buildings in the middle of miles of buildings. I still don’t see the emotional connection to them. Call me names all you wish. Buildings are built, the skyline must change some every year. I am just assuming here, from your posts obviously I am wrong. Excuse me, those buildings were there since Noah was a seaman and everyone else had a strong attachment to them? Okay fine. Krysilis- “Galen is not an idiot. His personality and his training just make him a man cut from a different cloth than most of the rest of us...but it's not inferior merchandise...it's just "different".” I have been told that before, many times in fact. : - ) Thank you, you are very sweet. Long gone- “No one suggested that Galen is an idiot. He is, however, extremely stubborn in holding to his error, and insistent on proclaiming it. I have pointed out to him that WTC and WTO are completely different several times, and at least once included links to Internet sites where he could inform himself, if he so chose.” And I have continually re-stated that it is about symbols, and what they stood for. All terrorist attacks are usually about symbols, When things get attacked is always on dates that are important, anniversaries, or someone somewhere’s holyday. Anti-terrorism newsletters [which I recently canceled my subscription to] compare and go into detail on these issues. :-)

Oakspear: "When unsucessful attempts are made to argue wayfers out of way-world, the wayfer is either unwilling to listen to any argument, or the argument is unpersuasive." I was possibly on the verge of being persuaded. I prayed a lot. I remember not really being able to think clearly about much of anything. I was just tired, and the more they talked and talked, got me more and more confused. Much more and I would have likely began worshipping boot-polish if it got them to go away from me. "If the argument focusses on abuses or other questionable practices, ..." Having been raised in the Baptist church, I was fully familiar with the idea of ministers sneaking aroung with the church secratary or the town whores. About the time that I turned 18 I had been a member of a Methodist church, during the time-frame that se discovered that the conference that the churches paid tithes into had gone to South America and paid for guns for rebels who had recnetly killed a group of nuns in a mission. So comparing abuses to abuses, I admit that I did not care. "... the wayfer has either already heard about them." I had. "... and dismissed them as either false or unimportant;" I dont think that it surprized me all that much, I think that on some level, I expected it from an upper level minister. So I guess that is my label: dismissed them as unimportant. "Much of what The Way is also believed by other denominations ..." True. :-)

Jonny Lingo: "I suppose Galen, that the term "dog and pony show" can be applied to many a different "show" where lots of sunshine is blown up the audience's arses, and where the truth is coated over with untruths. I was at all of the clergy meetings and damage control meetings concerning POP, and I think that the term is very apropos, imho. I do not think that the term is used only in military situations..." Kewl I am not familiar with ANY 'military' usage of the phrase at all. :-) I was in the military when I first saw a 'dog and pony' show is all that I meant. :-) To: "sunshine is blown up the audience's arses", and "truth is coated over with untruths" were not things that I have ever seen in a 'dog and pony' show. There were things going 'up' arses but it was not sunshine, and I dont recall anything being 'coated'? :-) Perhaps the figure your looking for is "smoke and mirrors"?

lindyhopper: "Sin in the blood is an interesting stand ... you are saying that behavior is genetic ... homosexuality ... say it is genetic ... sin is genetic ... Like alchoholism ... Predisposed ... Idon't know what else you could mean by sin being in the blood." Call me a 'Weirwill-ite' if you wish, but I do think that we each do have some genetic pre-disposition towards different types of sin-full behavior. Homosexuality, alcoholics [alcoholism by the way, makes it a religion], even some studys are tracing rapists and other things in prison populations to their genetics. If there exists a 'cloud' of demons each specializing in a particular behavior, and for each of them, some people are easily influenced [due to their genetic-pre-disposition] while others simply are not. Also as Weirwille taught, that once a demon has entered and has influenced the way of which you function, he could leave and better spend it's time making over someone else. Once someone is in the habit of sin [which ever sin you wish], then the actual demon does not need to stay there, but rather go on to the next customer. The 'Screw-tape letters' is a great illistration of this. This also comes into consideration when we look at the idea of sin following a family for 7 generations. Does that mean that each successive generation does not have the free-will to chose to follow God? Obviously not. Rather that once a genetic-pre-disposition is firmly entrenched in a family it takes generations for that gene to be watered down, or bred away. Obviously each person still has free-will, and could choose to worship, but they simply may not due to their beign 'drawn' towards such behavior. I can certainly see behaviors that are in my father, that are still strong in me, and again they are strong in my son. The best precaution in my mind is to acknowledge the pre-disposition as something that exists, so that it can be dealt with, in my life. :-)

While serving in Naples Italy, part of the time I was there I spent in rotating shift-work as a gate-guard. Among the other gate-guards we had some American civilians and we had some Local Nationals. Most of the American civilians were in fact military retirees who had served in Italy when they had built those bases [immediately following the battles of taking Italy from the Germans]. While they were there they had married local girls and fathered families. Due to their language skills they had spent their military careers stationed there. And when they each retired from active duty they each got hired to work on base as Policia, they never had to return stateside after their military careers and they were raising their families in Italy among relatives. Some of those guys were getting up there in age [60s and 70s], but they were a wealth of information and contacts. While working with one of them, I had a hard time understanding that since his children were American citizens, why he had never taught them English, or taken them stateside. He told me that he really did intend to return stateside but that his wife did not want to go, and that he would need to wait for her to pass-away, before he could go back to his home town. In talking to him, I found out that his hometown is Merced California. Where I graduated High-school, and that he graduated highschool one year before my step-father had graduated from Merced High. This old guy that had no teeth, could cuss in 6 dialects of Italian, and his arms were spotted with skin cancers, was from my home-town, my step-father knew him, and we had attended the same high-school. LOL

WordWolf: "For a lot less money, you can get BG Leonard's class, ... " According to their website [which politely asks us not to link back to them without their permission] Full Bible Course: (two weeks in residence) Christ The Rock - a 23 tape audio set $115 The Water In The Bottle (the godhead) - a 24 tape audio set, $120 and book “The Water In The Bottle - the god head” $15 Healing Made Plain - a 20 tape audio set $110 and book ‘Healing Made Plain’ $20 Gospel Of Grace – a 15 tape set $100 and book ‘Gospel Of Grace’ $12 Foundations - a 30 tape set $130 and book ‘Foundations’ $25 and other accompanying books: The Everlasting Covenant $14 Gifts Of The Spirit $25 Positive Prayer $19 Church Government $12 Homiletics And Pastoral Theology $12 Holocaust $20 Unless my ‘adder’ is broken asunder that totals $749 I think that $749 is slightly more than $500. :-) PS I really did have that text very nicely formatted, GS' server messes up the whole formatting thing.

WordWolf: "For a lot less money, you can get BG Leonard's class, ... " Really? Do you have it? I have known a few who have taken it, but not in this area. I thought that is was still very closely held by it's followers. :-)

motorhead: "Anybody out there have a copy of the original class (PFAL)? I remember it was in tape format and, of course, in video format. So many folks left TWI with lots of stuff & materials, I figure somebody out there has a copy of the class. If you do, or you know someone who does, please private topic me!" I got my copy from The Way West incorporated Limb Office in 1986. I did not pay any money for it. I have overseen the copying of it, though I have never seen it 'sold' for any amount of money. Nor have I seen anyone charged any amount of money to sit through a class, since we 'left' TWI the last time. I no longer have the setup to burn DVDs, and I currently have enough other pokers in the fire, such that I have no planns to get the gear to be burning any more copies at this time. A dear friend of mine, is envolved with the running of PFAL classes around the country and he recently sent me a 'better' rendered copy on DVD. He was the one who told me that the other day they actually had 10 PFAL classes running at the same time in various fellowships around the country. Where are you located? you may have a functioning ministry near you that already is running a class. [granted I am not personally tapped into any of those ministrys, but some of those people do frequent GreaseSpot Cafe. They commonly do not say much, for the amount of manure piled onto them if they do] I would suspect that by posting your request here, someone may be contacting you either soon, or eventually. :-) Bless you. :-)

Oakspear: "Of course this wasn't referring to you, Galen, but you wouldn't go the funeral or wake of someone you respected?" I did not meant that, exactly. I do go to funerals, I have had the honour of performing a few, I have had to attend numerous, and I have been pall-bearer. Personally I am either performing the funeral, I just dont go to a funeral of anyone that I did not know in life. I usually wear a dress uniform in fact. The last one [was 6 months ago] most everyone there was military, maybe a third of the crowd was on active duty, and yet I was the only one there in uniform. An Honour guard did show up for the grave-side, but there was still no other uniforms beyond myself and the honour guard. "Many of those who viewed the body were people who loved and respected the Pope during his life" I would certainly expect tha tamong them would have been those who knew him. And I would think that those who knew him, or who worked in the Vatican, or who were directly effected by the man's ministry; that they would likely all go to the funeral, or wake. "Gee, you can't imagine anyone having empathy for the victims of a tragedy like that? Trefor answered for himself very well, but I too am hit "powerfully and emotionally", yet no one died in my arms or bled on me...despite having family in NYC I didn't know any of the victims." They were the victims of a war being fought against the World-Trade-Organization and those who protect it. The episode of West Wing called: 'Isaac and Ishmal' explains it very well. I have seen deaths. No the 'emotion' drawn by watching someone die on TV, is little for me. Had I known someone who died there? I dont know I might 'feel' more, I really dont know. "But the first time I drove east toward New York after the attacks the hole in the skyline where the towers USED TO BE was a profoundly sad moment." Were you that familiar with the skyline of NYC? "Looking at a hole in the ground where thousands of people lived and worked, a block and a half where I worked during a teenage summer," The skyline had not changed since then? I would have assumed that with buildings going up here and there, old buildings getting torn down and replaced that the skyline would have changed a little each year.