Galen

Steve!: "I saw guys doing that just last weekend." Rather than just getting an appointment with their local grease-monkey? :-) I know that I cant 'fix' most stuff on them, so why commisserate about it?

jardinero: "Wow, Galen! Really? What brands?" Long list of them. I was once told that due to 'truth in advertising', anyone who says: "Whitening" must then have some component that either bleaches or dyes white. To say: "Brightening" it must have some method of increasing the lumins the object gives off [either little light bulbs, or radium, etc]. A lot of guys [including the RadCon guys] commonly smuggled any kind of toothpaste they wanted, saying that "so longs as it did not get airborne it only effected the 'background' levels slightly". Not nearly as much as glow-in-the-dark wrist-watches [which are a huge no no]. I always used dry baking-soda [from 1978 to 2002]. Untill resently I read that book from the former ADA [American Dental Assoc] President, he claims that any strong anti-bacterial would make more sense if your looking at a bacterial infection. So now I use H2O2 with peppermint oil [20% Hydrogen-peroxide with maybe 6 drops of peppermint oil per 10 fl oz]. :-)

Raf: "Ah. It's cumbersome, takes a lot of work, and while it accomplishes the task of killing the bird, it's far more force than necessary, right?" Work? Oh, I thought it was for fun. "accomplishes the task of killing"? Yeah, but it kills 20 birds at once. "... more than necessary"? Do you never do anything bigger than you absolutely need? Drive a V-8 when a L-4 wold work? Ride a 1000cc bike when a 150cc would do the trick? Work for a high-wage job, when you would do fine at minimum wage? :-) Shakespeare didn't coin the word assassinate. Check it out. I try to save cannons for larger targets. :)-->

Do you mean like using a black-powder scatter-gun mounted on the bow of a row-boat, load it up with single-ought-shot and rowing out onto a pond trying to aim the whole boat directly at ducks [because the if you shot it off at an angle it would flip the boat over, so it has to be aimed directly ahead]. Is that what you mean? Nope, I never did that. :-) Built a couple scatter-guns though; I own one; I helped mount one to a boat once; I may have even helped some body by loading it for them. But nope I never did hunt birds with one. And I would know very little about how to do such a thing. Have you?

rascal: "Were the percieved benefits that we recieved from our association with vp and his ministry truly worth it ...knowing now how others endured viscious treatment at the hands of vp and the other leaders of twi?" The 'percieved' benefits that I saw, dont have to be measured up against the viscious treatment that others received do they? I think that [from where I stood] many were blessed, and helped, and healed. And that was good. And I think that everyone here knows that. Obviously there were also others who were hurt. Many Many were hurt on the Branch and Limb levels, and the closer you got towards HQ the higher the likelihood of getting hurt was. In direct comparison, I would like to think that many drifted away when they first saw 'spiritual abuse' and so for the over-whelming majority they never saw and will never associate the good that they did experience, with the terribly viscious treatment that the few did get when they were in the presence of the BOD. Keeping in mind that hundreds of thousands took PFAL over the decades, but that the ministry's count of faithfull followers never did top 100,000. And how many ever were drawn toward HQ? I dont know how many ever went into the WC, but the total of all years does it top 10,000? I doubt it. So I think that 'MOST' saw good and were blessed, but left as soon as they saw there was also bad. Less were drawn to be faithfull followers, but even these quit once the 'badness' became over-whelming. And still fewer were drawn to climb the ladder, and finally were exposed to the 'viscious treatment at the hands of ...". "Were the benefits that we recieved from pfal valuable enough to make the suffering that was endured by some of us an acceptable price to pay?" This I suppose would have to be answered by each individual. To this day, what percentage of all PFAL-grads ever heard about the truly bad stuff? Few I think. Bonnie and I only hard about it from GS, and that was after we had been 'out' for 3 years. "Are we really sure that twi was even of Godly origins with so much devistation wrought?" I know that I was called to TWI. That may have been only for a short period of time, or not. I tried to redeem the time, and to minister to others, to help others, and to share what I have learned. Obviously not everyone did. "If we lable twi and vp as *good* on the basis that we were introduced to scripture....is twi or vp really any better than Jim Jones ...David Koresch ...Sun young moon (sp) or any other religious nut who utilizes scripture to co opt people in God`s name for the sating of their own lusts????" I was introduced to the evils that religion does, when I was a child in the Baptist church in my hometown [Ceres California]. I dont think that anything on earth is 100% godly. It all has some portion of badness in it. I dont think you can easily point out any religion, or church, or ... that is truly 100% good. We are mankind after all [Oh wretched man that I am ...]. Dare any call it 'good'? "Could God have really wanted us there at all?" Yes, humbly I say. :-)

Mark: Yes, sir. I go back in corner now.

sharon: "For beer commercials, they add liquid detergent to the beer to make it foam more." Not just on the commercials. Check any Beer-making supply store, they all stock 'foaming agents' to make beers to hold their head longer. Soaps change to surface-tension of the liquid so bubbles rising to the top will not pop quickly, rather they make foam and hold it. Beer is commonly judged, and among the qualitys that it is judged for is uniformity of it's head and how long it holds it's head. A common ingredient.

outofdafog: That some toothpastes contain antifreeze...." Many are also terribly radio-active, enough so that submarine crews are not allowed to carry certain brands on-board as their radio-activity would set-off alarms on the atomospheric monitors trying to monitor the reactor.

Steve!: "William Shakespeare coined something like 144 words and phrases that are still used to this day - including "assassin" (or maybe assassinate)." One source says: "Hashish-smokers." The plural of hashshash "hashish smoker." Originally an order founded in Persia and Syria, a militant group of the Nizari branch of Ismaeli Muslims. Members received this name from their use of hashish to create celestial visions. They later became associated with the assassination of political leaders, particularly those of the invading Christian crusaders. Today, they are known as Khojas or Mawlas, and live mostly in the Bombay area of India, but some also live in Syria and Iran. The word is the origin of the English word "assassin." Another source says: The Hashshashin (also Hashishim), or Assassins were a religious group (some would say, a cult) of Ismaili Muslims (from the Nizari sub-sect) with a militant basis, thought to be active in the 8th to 14th centuries as a group of brigands on the medieval Silk Road. Their own name for the sect was al-da'wa al-jad?da (?????? ???????) which means the new doctrine and they called themselves fedayeen from the Arabic The group transformed the act of murder into a system and an ideology directed against Muslim rulers that they saw as impious usurpers—often said to be the first to do so. They were careful to kill the targeted individual, seeking to do so without any additional casualties. Their weapon of choice was a dagger, rejecting poison, bows and other weapons that allowed the attacker to escape. However, under no circumstances did they commit suicide, preferring to be killed by their captors. Another source says: Etymology of the word "assassin" The name "assassin" is commonly believed to be a mutation of the Arabic "hašš?š?n" (???????, "hashish-eaters"). However, there are those who dispute this etymology, arguing that it originates from Marco Polo's account of his visit to Alamut in 1273, in which he describes a drug whose effects are more like those of alcohol than of hashish. It is suggested by some writers that assassin simply means 'followers of Al-Hassan' (or Hasan-i Sabbah, the Sheikh of Alamut (see below)). Others suggest that since hashish-eaters were generally ostractized in the middle ages the word "Hashshashin" had become a common synonym for "outlaws". So the attribution of Hassan's Ismaili sect with this term is not necessarily a clue for drug usage. History of the Hashshashin Although known as early as the 8th century, the foundation of the Assassins is usually marked as 1090 when Hasan-i Sabbah established his stronghold in the mountains south of the Caspian Sea at Alamut. A Yemeni emigrant and an Ismaili Shiite, Hasan set the aim of the Assassins to destroy the power of the Abbasid Caliphate by murdering its most powerful members. Hasan ibn Sabbah was also known as "The Old Man of the Mountain", however, this is likely to have been a mistake in translation, since "Old Man" is the literal translation of "Sheikh". Much of the current western lore surrounding the Assassins stems from Marco Polo's supposed visit to Alamut in 1273, which is widely considered mythical (especially as the stronghold was allegedly destroyed by the Mongols already in 1256). Benjamin of Tudela who traveled one hundered years before Marco Polo mentions the Al-Hashshashin and their leader as "the old man." He notes their principle city to be Kadmus. The group inspired an aura of fear out of all proportion to their power. The members were organized into rigid classes, based upon their initiation into the secrets of the order. The devotees constituted a class that sought martyrdom and followed orders with unquestioned devotion, orders which included assassination. Because of the secretive nature of the order, it has often been invoked in conspiracy theories. Most of the victims of the Assassins were Sunni Muslims. There were some extremely highly placed victims including Nizam-ul-Mulk. Christians were largely untouched by the depredations of the Assassins; it was not until the middle of the 12th century that they had even really heard of them, although Conrad of Montferrat - the King of Jerusalem - was a victim (the Assassins may have even been hired by Richard the Lionheart). The power of the Hashshashin was destroyed by the Mongol warlord Hulagu Khan, but several smaller sects remain to this day, such as the sect led by the Aga Khan. During the Mongol assault, the library of the sect was destroyed, and thus much information about them was lost. The word "assassin" in the English language has come to denote a murderer, usually with a political motive. Methodology Legends stated that the Assassins were trained using ideology and drugs to convince them that they were assured a place in paradise if they were successful in murder with their golden daggers. They subdued, kidnapped, drugged and seduced the fiercest caravan guards, convincing them with elaborate means that they had died and awakened in Paradise. Thereafter, on subsequent raids, they fought furiously, believing that their death would only return them to that Paradise. The training technique was sophisticated for its time, especially the use of Ismaeeli dogma, drugs, and sex in combination. Recruits were promised Paradise in return for dying in action. They were drugged, often with materials such as hashish (some suggest opium and wine as well) then spirited away to a garden stocked with attractive and compliant women and fountains of wine. At this time, they were awakened and it was explained to them that such was their reward for the deed, convincing them that their leader, Hassan-i-Sabah, could open the gates to Paradise. Sabbah was the legendary leader of a secretive cult of Ismaili Muslims in Iran in the early eleventh century. He ruled the fortress of Alamut in northern Iran, and commanded a group of devotees (or fidayees) whom he would send out to commit political assassinations. There is a lengthy article about Alamut and Hasan Sabbah here. The word "assassin" itself is thought by some (including the Merriam-Webster dictionary) to have come from the word "hashshashin", or smokers of Hashish, referring to the alleged intoxication of Sabbah's followers when they committed murder. Others have contested this claim, contending that assassin has been derived from "Hassassin" or followers of Hasan. Either way it seems that assassination and Hasan Sabbah are etymologically inseparable. While there is debate over the true identity of William Shakespeare [he did keep his identity a secret during his life], it is generally assumed that he did live a life long after the 8th century. And that he spoke English, not Arabic. :-)

dmiller: "oh -- and the sport of water-skiing was invented in Minnesota as well, on July 2, 1922. It was done by RALPH SAMUELSON on Lake Pepin, in Lake City Mn." Okay, but I thought that Benjamin Franklin wrote a thesis paper once on the theory and describing how you could do it only if you had enough thrust.

Mark: “Because I'm a man, when I lock my keys in the car I will fiddle with a wire long after hypothermia, or heat stroke, has set in. AAA is not an option. I will win.” I will ask for help long before hypothermia or heat stroke has set in. “Because I'm a man, when the car isn't running very well, I will pop the hood and stare at the engine as if I know what I'm looking at. If another man shows up, one of us will say to the other, "I used to be able to fix these things, but now with all these computers and everything, I wouldn't know where to start." We will then drink beer and break wind as a form of Holy Communion.” That is absurd. Cute but absurd, I really don’t think that any guy actually does this. I know that I can not fix a modern car. My ’57 Willy yes, but not our modern vehicles, call for help. “Because I'm a man, when I catch a cold, I need someone to bring me soup and take care of me while I lie in bed and moan. You're a woman. You never get as sick as I do, so for you this isn't a problem.” I take care of Bonnie and the kids when they are sick. “Because I'm a man, I can be relied upon to purchase basic groceries at the store, like milk or bread. I cannot be expected to find exotic items like "cumin" or "tofu." For all I know, these are the same thing. And never, under any circumstances, expect me to pick up anything for which "feminine hygiene product" is a euphemism. (F.Y.I. guys cumin is a spice and not a bodily function)” This sounds like something off “blue-collar TV”. I can shop for everything, but Bonnie has the prices memorized and cuts coupons, there is no way that I could ever match her with her coupons; so she does most grocery shopping. I routinely only shop for the fresh veggies and fruits [bonnie can not tell a ripe watermelon from a green cantaloupe, and she works as a produce grocer. Heh heh heh]. If a woman needs tampons or anything else, and your making the next trip to the store than why not get what is needed? I secretly think that the other females in the store will highly respect you once they see you getting the goods without complaint. This is like guys shopping for condoms. I would be proud to shop for them, it says that you hope to get some. I dont understand why gusy would want to hide that. Personally I get them for free, which is why I dont shop for them myself, they are too expensive. “Because I'm a man, when one of our appliances stops working, I will insist on taking it apart, despite evidence that this will just cost me twice as much, once the repair person gets here and has to put it back together.” Some appliances I fix, others I do not. It comes with knowing what you can do. I have NEVER, needed anyone else to go back in later to fix my screw-up. “Because I'm a man, I must hold the television remote control in my hand while I watch TV. If the thing has been misplaced, I may miss a whole show looking for it (though one time I was able to survive by holding a calculator)...applies to engineers mainly.” What? Who cares where or who has the remote? “Because I'm a man, there is no need to ask me what I'm thinking about. The answer is always either sex, cars or football. I have to make up something else when you ask, so don't ask.” Get a life. Yes sex is nice, but only within a given context. Cars are tools, I ‘think’ about them when driving or shopping for a new one. I don’t like team sports, never have. I have watched too many guys devote way too much time trying to find the scores each week, and seen them go to pieces when the teleprinter died without printing the scores [heh heh heh]. “Because I'm a man, I do not want to visit your mother, or have your mother come visit us, or talk to her when she calls, or think about her any more than I have to Whatever you got her for Mother's Day is okay; I don't need to see it. And don't forget to pick up something for my mother too.” I don’t get this one either. Bonnie does not have a mother [she was orphaned as a child] so I guess I will leave this one to you who do have mother-in-laws. I do have a sister-in-law, she is great. I have no issues with her visiting, in fact Bonnie is traveling this weekend down to D.C. to spend a few days with her sister. Good for them. “Because I'm a man, you don't have to ask me if I liked the movie. Chances are, if you're crying at the end of it, I didn't.... and if you are feeling amorous afterwards...then I will certainly at least remember the name and recommend it to others.” If it makes me want to cry, I walk out. I don’t think I have ever seen Bonnie cry. Nor do I recall a movie ever changing her mood towards ‘amorous’. “Because I'm a man, I think what you're wearing is fine. I thought what you were wearing five minutes ago was fine, too. Either pair of shoes is fine. With the belt or without it, looks fine. Your hair is fine. You look fine. Can we just go now?” LOL I have seen women like this. I am very thankful that I did not marry such. She puts on what she is going to wear, and out we go. I have never been asked if it looked ‘okay’ or ‘better’, and that is fine with me. On the other hand, once or twice in 21 years, I have asked her about what she thinks of my clothing and looks [she thinks the entire train of thought is far too vain]. “Because I'm a man, and this is, after all, the year 2005, I will share equally in the housework. You just do the laundry, the cooking, the cleaning, the vacuuming, and the dishes, and I'll do the rest... like looking for my socks, or like wandering around in the garden with a beer wondering what to do.” I do laundry [but I hate hanging clothes on the line, I prefer winter when I use the dryer]. I cook, if I am home during the hour before dinner. I clean [sweep, mop, wax the floors . Make my bed. Wipe down all horizontal counter-tops, etc]. I load the dish-washer [the kids unload it]. I don’t garden anymore, I did at the first dozen homes we lived at, but everytime I went away, everything died from lack of watering. So after years of trying I finally gave-up. I have started over a dozen gardens, but have never been able to harvest any of them, since I was a child. “presented as a public service to the fairer sex” Truly not a balanced perspective at all. NotinKansas- “Simple test. Answer this question, as though it came from your wife or girlfriend." "Tell me the truth. Does this make me look fat?" Maybe it is just from living a life with security clearances, but I have no issue at all, with simply not ansering some questions. Or changing the subject, Or answering a question with another question, Or answering a question with a totally absurd whimsical answer. Do you think it does? I like the other pair. I would prefer that you wore nothing at all. In the greater scheme of the universe a blue mu-mu with flowers, is a miniacure cosmos all in itself and would truly require far more thought and consideration than I am willing to give it.

Mark: "Bottom line is that, in a Jack Chick world, there is a grave conspiracy where Catholics and Masons are working together with ..." LOL It would be cool to see the Catholics and Freemasons agree on anything. There is just soo much bad blood between the two. The only thing that I know of that would get a law-abiding mass-attending Catholic Italian to stick a ice-pick through your ribs, is to hear that someone is a freemason. The RCs really indoctrinate and throw it on thick in some countries, how evil the Freemasons are. Even after most of Europe was helped through-out WWII, by Freemasonry. On the other hand, Freemasonry does have a long history of being prosecuted by Papal decree. After so many of the cathedrals were built the prosecution really only started in the 1300's but it did get worse as the centuries went by. No, I dont foresee the two ever agreeing on anything. :-)

I see the phrase "Jack Chick" appearing many times. I have not heard of this phrase, I googled it and came back with many pages of responses. It would appear to be a person who writes and distributes comic books. Mark- Do you read a lot of this guy's stuff? Since you seem to be quoting him? You seem to be refering to him, yet in a negative sense. Are you attempting to atribute what other people say, as if those quotes came from your Jack Chick? Since this guy appears to be your buddy, could you possibly explain your metaphor? :-)

Mark: "Again, anti-Catholic sentiment has some deep roots...in many circles it makes it easier to believe the bad rather than research the facts." But which 'facts' from which researchers do we accept? On one hand we have numerous documents which support anti-popes, female popes, homosexual-popes, indulgences vendors, selling sainthood canonizations, and the inquisition. Yes we also know that there exist many who would also insist that none of these things ever happened. So whose version of history is 'fact'?

Pope Joan / Pope John VIII 853-855 AD John Anglicus was a ninth century Englishman. He travelled to Athens where he gained a reputation for his knowledge of the sciences. Eventually he came to lecture at the Trivium in Rome where his fame grew even larger. He became a Cardinal, and when Pope Leo IV died in 853 A.D., he was unanimously elected pope. As Pope John VIII he ruled for two years, until 855 A.D. However, while riding one day from St. Peter's to the Lateran, he had to stop by the side of the road and, to the astonishment of everyone, gave birth to a child. It turned out that Pope John VIII was really a woman. In other words, Pope John was really Pope Joan. According to legend, upon discovering the Pope's true gender, the people of Rome tied her feet together and dragged her behind a horse while stoning her, until she died. While it was all heavily documented at the time, history of the era has since been argued a great deal. http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~pardos/PopeJoan9.html "We have found some authors who scoff at the whole idea of a female pontiff, for no better reason than that they cannot conceive of a member of the 'second sex' having the wit to reach the supreme position in the Catholic Church unrecognized. For C.A. Patrides, whose recent study adds little new to the subject, the medieval belief in Pope Joan is enough to make him 'suspect that judgment had fled to brutish beasts, and men had lost their reason'.(2) We do not share this extreme view. St Hildegund seems to have entered the monastery at Sch? because it was the easiest and most convenient thing for her to do at the time, but the fact remains that she lived and worked among monks without her secret being revealed. Another woman could well have taken the same step out of unwillingness to accept the traditional supportive, nurturing role which was the only one then available to her within the Church or, indeed, outside it. If she had sufficient determination, what might she not have achieved? It is certainly not impossible that she might finally have gained the ultimate accolade of election to the Papal Chair."

WhiteDove: "... Pope John XII (955-64) ... Pope Innocent VIII (1484-92) ... Pope John XXII (1316-34) ... Pope Pius XI (1922-39) ... Pope Celastine II (1143-44) ... Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) ... Pope Clement VII (1378-94) ... Pope Benedict XIII (1394-1417) ... pope Benedict IX ... Pope Boniface VII (974; 984-85) ... Pope Sixtus III (432-40) ... Pope Leo I (440-61)... " LOL I had seen and read much better lists. You left off the female popes. And the "Babylonian Captivity of the papacy, 1309-1377" [when Clement V was captured and imprisoned in France so The French King, Philip IV, could control of his every move and be subjected to French rule], they then turned focus onto the Knights Templars and their treasure. In 1307, they ordered a sweeping raid during which all known Knights were rounded up and thrown into dungeons to be tortured. In 1312 the Pope issued the order to turn all holdings of the order to France. Hundreds of devout Templars were tortured and killed including their Grand Master Jacques de Molay. Few survived to escape to Scotland where their legacy could continue. There are organizations that do remember. :-) Unfortunately when you look at an organization that has been around for so long, it does take a really long time for the 'modern' popes to finally outnumber all those who went before during the Church's first two millennia. No doubt one day [many centuries from today] if they keep their noses clean, finally there will come a day when, we can say publicly and proudly that 'most' popes were 'good' men. :-) Galen Young Harry S. Truman #649, F&AM, Naples, Italy Reliance Chap #70 Bremerton Washington Steadfast Lodge #216, Bremerton Washington Valley of Bremerton, Orient of Washington - Knight of the Rose Croix, Knight of the order of St Andrew Affifi Temple, Tacoma, Washington - Ancient Arabic Order Nobles of the mystic shrine.

sadie: "I will rephrase what was said to me." Okay lets try again. "The discussion started because I was concerned about some things that was said to me about TWI. One of the discussions was de-programming. Patty Faye informed me that when belivers were taken by force that they would go after the believer and take them back." Okay so Patty was saying that when somebody was abducted from her Twig, the Twig would chase down the abductors and retreive the abductee. Okay that sounds fine. I neve did, but then again had I known who was doing abductions and where they were, I might have done likewise. "I ask why? She said, "Because we went after the believers who we knew wanted to be in TWI and not with their families." But she did not attempt to release the abductees if they were not sure, that the abductee 'wanted' to be released to go back to twig? In my fellowships, everyone was free to go to their families, or to twig, or both. It was never an either or situation. Perhaps someone's family did not like someone going to Twig, but it was the family who said such. So if you wanted to go see your family, you went. If not then you stayed home. " ... "They were taken by force and we got them back." She also preceeded to tell me what horror the belivers had gone through during de-programming and how they had to work with them to get them back. Back to what, I don't know." I could see that often they might be hungry and would like food, or water, maybe bandaging, most definately sleep. When I got away I did not wnat to hear about trinity, or baptism, or spirit, the words just blended together. I would think that most recently released abductees, would really like sleep. Or maybe a back-alley where they could bush-whack their previous abductors. :-) In 1985, when one of our followers was abducted for deprogramming, he just wanted to hang-out with no pressure being put on him. He was raised RC, and I think his abduction was done partly by his family's priest. He told us that the priest had other 'friends' who were knowledgible in de-programming and that it was the group of 'them' [the priest, the de-programming specailists, and the family] who had been there during his de-programming. We did ask if there was anything that we could do for him, but I dont recall there being anythign other than loving him. :-)

excathedra: "VATICAN CITY - Cardinal Bernard Law, whose failures to stop sexually abusive priests sparked the worst crisis in American church history, led a Mass for thousands mourning Pope John Paul II at St. Peter's Basilica on Monday after police whisked away a victim protesting outside." First, please understand that I am not slamming the RC church. They are suffering through a severe shortage of priests. They need to try and keep so many slots in churches filled with an ever shrinking community of priests. A popular doctrine is that after 'true' remorse has occured than the person is as good as if they had never done wrong. So anytime one priest has 'problems' [of any sort], they obviously need to be taken from that parish but then if the priest goes to a monestary to work out his forgiveness and he proclaims his remorse to his bishop, then he is off again to a fresh parish. If the man has made life-long vows and has been ordained, then so long as he still teaches the doctrines of his church, what else should they do with him, but to put him back into another church? The only reason by this thought, that he would be 'de-frocked' would be if he later recanted of church doctrine. If a preist does some wrong and is caught; then goes to work out his forgiveness and proclaims remorse; then by their own doctrine [and admited shortage of priests] they would be 'required' to put him in charge of another church. :-)

Al Poole: "WELL.... Galen.... I guess that says it ... Hmmm oenophile???? Seems "budda" means one thing here and another there... NO????" Now be nice. :-) There was some 'assuming' envolved. I had heard about it from Paul Harvey, once in an area that he was being broadcast in. And I 'assumed' that Mr. Harvey was reporting correctly. Oenophile was 'assuming' that I would not rise to the challenge. He was also 'assuming' that Google would not have lots of information on: "Buddhist girls sold to temple for prostitution". Fortunately in this case, my assumption that Mr. Paul Harvey was right and that Google would have the topic covered, was correct. :-)

I have been given free phone cards periodically, each time that I served overseas. They are nice to have. Many business do give to the cause. :-)

diazbro: "Do not underestimate the impact that Way training has on the exWayfer's opinion of the Catholic church and mainstream churches in general. I know plenty of former way people who have been out for 15 years who characterize *all* major denominations as being "evil". For me its distrubing that they don't realize that their fear and loathing of these institutions are based on comments by Way leadership as opposed to personal experience." I agree. Having been raised a Baptist, I was told of the 'evils' of the RCs since before I could speak. Such does have a lasting impression. "Now. the Catholic church has its problems and needs to deal straightforwardly with ... molestation ... celibacy ... many priests take lovers ... " It does have problems, but then so does about every large business. "In the end I hope people make decisions about the catholic church based on information and personal experience ..." Yes, I have had numerous friends who have been RC. One of our current renters is a RC, she comes down to our apartment every Friday for drinks and we discuss religion. We have fun with it, her hubby is in my lodge as well. I have been blessed with the opportunity of knowing many RCs whom I have been able to have long debates with. To my understanding [yes, I know that my understanding is terribly limited], every religion that has become a business, takes advantage of it's followers and 'vices' soon occur. My issue with that religion is more the matter of fact method whereby they derive doctrine. 'Good' was this, but then it changed to 'this', but then during this age 'good' changed to 'this', but then later it changed to 'this', and today we dont really accept any of those things as the developed doctrine of the Church is 'this'. To me how can anything be good or bad, if we willingly change our morales with each generation? Can't there exist a single un-changing system by which we derive the definitions of both 'good' and 'bad'? Maybe something that was formed by a mind, outside of the human? :-)

oenophile: "Galen, You should be sure of your facts before you hit the "post now" button." http://www.ambedkar.org/buddhism/Minister_...es_devdasis.htm " ... girls are married off to a temple deity in their infancy and spend the rest of their lives celibate, but grant sexual favours to temple priests and even their own relatives. Some are sold to brothels in Mumbai and Pune. "And we have had evidence of these girls being sold off to brothels in Mumbai after a few years of living as devdasis. The National Human Rights Commission has informed us that almost all Kannada-speaking prostitutes in Mumbai are from Belgaum. But the veracity of this claim is not yet verified," Suresh said." http://www.indiaparenting.com/indiancultur...ce008book.shtml "You truly explain the dilema. i was trying to research the history of temple dancers throughout time and cultures, and this clearly presents not the Independent Woman, not the sacredness of a woman and her body, or the magic and beauty of dance, but the realism of the price paid in yet another horrifying and dehumanizing way. the spiritual contradictions are astounding but so prevalent worldwide and throughout history. Hopefully, steps will be made through awareness to resolve these autrocities. Thank you." "The tradition of converting young girls into Devadasis is a religious practice prevalent in the southern parts of India. Parents marry their daughters off to a temple, and when the girl attains puberty she is expected to perform sexual favours for the upper-class men of the society – at least initially. Later on the devadasis become public property, and anyone with the money, whether truck drivers or landlords, enjoys access to their bodies. This heinous practice is largely thrust upon dalit women, who are otherwise thought of as untouchables – but apparently not when it comes to having sex with them." "Deflowering: The next stage or Second Pattam is that of deflowering the girl. The deflowering ceremony is generally conducted after the girl’s first menstruation period. While devadasis were originally deflowered by the temple pundits, as time passed, they slowly started being sold to the village landlord. He would patronize the dedication ceremony, and then go on to deflower her – thus effectively completing the process of dedication of the innocent girl, and throwing her to a life of forced prostitution. The girl, who is at an age when she is barely able to comprehend the changes of puberty, is forced to have sex with a middle-aged man chosen by her parents." "Prostitution in the name of religion" "Parents of a devadasi usually receive proposals from local landlords or businessmen. Usually parents prefer to have upper caste well-to-do men deflower their girl. These ‘clients’ contact the parents of devadasi through senior ‘jogatis’ who serve as mediators. If the client wishes, the devadasi may become his personal concubine, and he may or may not forbid her from entertaining other clients. Other clients leave the devadasi after deflowering her, and she then becomes public property." http://www.american.edu/projects/mandala/TED/nepalsex.htm "NEPAL. The word evokes an image of a far off place of wonder. The ultimate travel destination: trekking through the mountains and countryside, exotic locations, hiking through the mountain kingdom nestled in the Himalayas. Yet underneath the wonder and majestic landscape lives one of the poorest countries in the world, rife with human rights violations, especially towards women and children. Every year approximately 10,000 girls from the ages of 9 to 16 are sold, stolen or forced into the brothels of Bombay or Kathmandu. At a time when technological innovation could help prevent human rights violations through education and awareness, the Internet has become a tool to find the locations where young girls are available for prostitution, perpetuating the need for young girls to work in the sex entertainment trade." "The sale of women and girls has its roots in Nepalese culture and religion. The sex industry in India has been active since the Vedic period, made reference to in the Ramayana and Mahabharata spiritual texts of the Hindu religion. Sex workers were called "Vaishyas' and have accompanied kings to the battlefield, formed the main bodyguard of Emperor Chandra Gupta Maurya, and engaged in intelligence services for the kingdom. During the Vijayanagara Empire (1336-1565) the highest honor bestowed on a young girl was to be sold as a Devadasis, a temple prostitute, literally meaning, "slave of god." The devadasi is a Hindu temple servant who, before reaching puberty, is dedicated for life to the goddess Yallamma." "In other cases, a young girl is "married" to the temple. Traditionally, the divine marriage would transport a low-caste girl into a devotional career of temple singing and dancing. In modern times, this outlawed ritual is believed to absorb nearly 10,000 girls a year, often condemning them to a life of sexual enslavement to temple priests or city brothels. "Untouchable" caste women are also traditionally prostitutes, while other castes allow unmarried women and children to be offered to the temple as offerings. In many cases, there is an established network between the temples and the city brothels. Temple leaders take advantage of the ignorance of the law and the cultural and traditional beliefs of the local communities. In the majority of the cases, this invariable results in the children being sold to the temples then in turn sold to brothel madams. "Some of these forms of child prostitution in India emerge from deeply rooted, traditional practices and beliefs which still prevail," said Richard Young, chief of community development for the United Nations Children's Fund in India. " They may be legally outlawed, but they do continue."{7} Without helping the population overcome some of the historically rooted prejudices, such as women as second class citizens, the birth of a Nepalese child will be rejoiced, but for all the wrong reasons - such as the money she will bring to the family when she is sold." http://www.american-buddha.com/thai.buddh.patriarchy.htm "The number of prostitutes in Thailand is almost equal to the number of monks. If young, rural girls could be given the same opportunity as the boys to enter a monastic life, they would have access to education and at the same time be able to repay spiritual gratitude to their parents. These opportunities could provide girls and women with proper monastic education and spiritual guidance so they can become important spiritual guides for the rural folks, particularly other women and girls. Due to male dominance within Thai Buddhism, however, girls and women have been deprived of such an opportunity. Consequently, they have been victims of different forms of violence against girls and women, such as domestic violence, rape and forced prostitution." http://www.thaiworldview.com/bouddha/bouddha3.htm "Articles about monks can be found in Thai newspapers. Some related bad affairs like raping young girls, seizing fake money in temples, black magic ritual that caused death to people, seizing amphetamines pills carried by monks, monks who visited a resort island and observed beauty contestants in their swimsuits, donations embezzlement (monk who has got 60 Mercedes Benz cars and so violates the religion anti-materialist precepts, monk who stole over 300,000 baht from his temple to gamble on World Cup matches), abbots having intercourse with women, monks wearing laymen clothes and going to karaoke, an abbot wearing an army colonel uniform and entertaining women in a remote house, monks involved in murder." http://www.awid.org/go.php?list=analysis&p...ysis&item=00241 "In Thai culture, it is a tradition for all Thai men to be ordained, usually before they get married, in order to pay gratitude to their parents (especially their mother since she herself cannot be ordained). By having a son ordained, it is believed that the parents can cling to the yellow robe of their son and reach heaven after their death? Whereas rural boys have access to education and resources through the monkhood, girls do not have the same opportunity because there is no ordination for women. To pay gratitude to parents, in particular, to provide economic security, they have very few choices - to become a maid, a factory worker or a prostitute. Because boys repay gratitude to their parents by being ordained in their youth, they fulfill their duty early in life. A girl's way to repay gratitude to her parents is usually to take care of them when they are old. In the past ten years, girls as young as eight have been sold by parents and the money used to pay debts, to send her brothers to school, to build a new modern house or to buy a pickup truck for her family." http://www.deutsche-rundschau.com/archiv/0...99/thailand.htm "Bangkok is a deeply spiritual city which revers its Buddhist heritage. This reverence is most dramatically conveyed through the countless wats (temples) which dot the city and the entire countryside." "Bangkok is widely regarded as the “sex capital” of the Orient. To a large extent this statement is true (or at least was true until certain incurable venereal diseases started to provide customers of the earthlier pleasures with a souvenir for which they had not bargained) but the underlying reasons for this condition are complex and often horrifying. “Sex tours” from Japan, Germany and elsewhere, along with the hard currency that these provide, have raised the stakes in the game of physical pleasure to the point where pretty, pre-pubescent girls (and some boys), mostly from the countryside, are sold into virtual slavery by poor, unscrupulous parents. These youngsters end up in Bangkok “clubs” catering to the sex trade where they have to “work off” the “debt” incurred by their parents." P.S. I so love it when all I have to do is cut and past, and maybe provide a few quotation marks and bolds. :-)

I have been taught about the 'crowns'. And I have shared that teaching many times. Fairly simple-straight chapter and verse stuff. In ministering to people it has always amazed me that so many people have been raised in churches yet they so often had never heard of any rewards or wrowns at all. It does sound crazy that TWI would so completely go back against what had been their solid doctrines.

sadie: "During a discussion with Stephen and Patty Faye Roberts the acts of deprogramming were also praticed by TWI. She admitted to me that TWI would go after the ones who were snatched by deprogrammers and brought back." Your saying that these two told you that: 1. TWI also practiced 'De-Programming' techniques?, and 2. that TWI would approach followers who had been 'de-programmed', to bring them back into fellowship? If TWI did, I dont think that I have heard of it. "Why would TWI do this? Is it because those believers wanted to be in TWI and they were going to save them from evil spirits?" I understand that TWI used possible 'programming-techniques', I am not sure whether they ever tried to use any 'De-Programming-techniques'. But I have no idea of what was done at HQ. Would TWI go after somenoe who had been 'successfully' De-Programmed? I would not imagine so. If someone that I knew had been through a 'successful' de-programming, I could see where I might approach them to say "Hi", to see if they are okay, to ask if there was anything that I could do to help them. Food, water a chance to sleep, maybe bandages, would all be appropriate. "Evil spirits"? I never heard about this one, it could be that I just was not a follower of TWI long enough [1979-1997]. :-)

P-Mosh: "Every Christian group has had sex controversies, whether pedophilia, rape, incest, or whatever." I agree, even the Baptist ministers who make-out with their secrataries. "Also, I am not saying this to single out Christianity as the only source of paedophiles, it's just that I don't know how many Buddhist child molesters exist, for example. Realistically it's likely that every religion and non-religion has an equal number of child molesters. However, when you have things like teachers, priests, scout leaders, etc. they are in a position where they could easily get away with molesting children, so those types of positions attract people who want to rape kids." I agree and I dis-agree. On one hand, yes I think that probably 'deviants' are fairly evenly distributed through-out a society. On the other hand, you really can not take that same idea to another society wherein such 'deviancy' is not considered wrong. To go somewhere like a predominately buddhist-taoist culture the concept of paedophilia not thought to be wrong. I guess it all depends on which box we step inside of. :-)