Eagle

Is Mike Martin from Way Productions out of TWI yet? I sponsored him through the Corps.

Believe what you want to believe. As for me, I believe in Jesus Christ and that He was raised from the dead and that He will come again. God will sort it out at His time, who believed and who didn't and whether or not that mattered. But I believe that believing in Jesus dying for me matters. But that is my opinion. Steve Spencer

It's been my experience that learning the Word from the Way International was like learning English from Yogi Berra.

All my money back.

Actually, I never knew JAL when he was in TWI but I did speak to him on the phone along with John Schoenheit in the late 80's after they left. They both sincerely desire to help people with the Word of God and JAL and JS both respond to my emails when I email them. Not right away, but they always have. These guys are busy building a ministry. I don't know what to say to those who were offended by JAL. If it was during TWI, we were all judgemental then. We were taught that way. After that, I thought the man was the nicest guy I ever wanted to know. But I realize people are entitled to their opinions even about other people. Peace, man. Steve

Oldiesman: Thanks for the compliment on Drawing Swords. dmiller left an online message for you to email him concerning that paper you wanted. I have also asked him for the same paper. I wanted it for my archives. God Bless, Man! Steve Spencer

I like ex-cathedra's idea to replace reproof with love, or at least reprove with love. The "Reproof" I got was for really insignificant things like: "Hi, Bob. How ya doin'?" "I must reprove you. First my name is Robert..." "Why did you buy coffee instead of letting me get some for you? I must reprove you for robbing me of the chance to bless you..." "Gee, I don't know. Maybe I bought coffee because...you didn't tell me you had coffee...? "You need reproof. Your car is dirty especially on the lower panels and doors and the tires have mud." "I'm sorry. On my next blessing to drive you over 1200 miles to your Corps assignment, I'll be sure to stop every five miles or so and clean it with a paper towel." Stuff like that. Steve

Raf: I'll not call it PFAL Review then. I'll just call it what you call it. There is a lot to consider in what you have written. Oldiesman, I'll see if I can drum up that paper.

Thanks Raf. I'll probably quote articles and post links as I do with others. But there may be some I'd rather not paraphrase as what you have written shouldn't be changed as I can't find a way to write it better without it losing quality. So I might ask in the future if I might post one of your articles on the site. My site has used up a lot of space already and I have to expand the size of it on my server. Some photographs I have may have to come down until that time. Your PFAL Review is really fascinating and I'd rather not paraphrase or change anything about it, plus some articles I liked which would benefit the readers of my site. Again, thanks. Steve

Raf: I've picked some ideas from your articles, too, but shared them mostly at fellowship because I didn't want to copy your material. I would like to quote some of it in the future but wasn't sure how you would feel about that. The articles in the "To Wit" series are so much to ponder. A lot of spiritual edification in those articles.

Lightside: Is that you FB? Anyway, Matt and Scott are better off. Scott's now in the process of being treated for his mentally challenged status and also his bipolar. I have to accompany him to the SSI office on Wednesday with his caseworker and also arrange new housing for him. Matt is still Matt, but he is out of trouble. Debbie and I still pray heavily for both of them and it is working. We so appreciate your prayers, Lightside. Incidently, if you are FB, I'd like to dedicate the following article to you at Christian Heritage Online. You taught Deb and I a lot on healing and I took it as best I could through the four gospels and the book of Acts. The article is Healing and Miracles In The Bible God Bless you, Lightside.

Oldiesman: Thanks for writing. You know, that paper Lynn and the rest of the now CES staff sent to the BOT of TWI I do not have, but I do believe it can be possibly be picked up at certain sites, maybe at pjroberge's sites, or John Juedes Messiah 7 site, or Trancenet. Not sure. I'll see if I can find it and let you know. Thanks.

Hello JT: I came into TWI in September 1980 when I was 27. I am 51 now. I had five years with VPW before watching LCM really take off. I had 12 years before finally leaving in 1992. PFAL in 1982, Intermediate in 1982, Advanced Class 1986 at Emporia, and Way Corps (Apprentice) in 1991 to 1992 before I realized the legalism was so heavy and persecution so big and my life so down and out, I finally figured something was wrong. The article on my website, the one I may update due to WordWolf's suggestion, removing praise of VPW pretty much, an old article, explains my experiences in the Way or TWI. The article is called Drawing Swords and is about 32 pages long or so. As for me, I have been married to my wife Debbie for almost five years now and have two step-sons, Matthew and Scott. We will be selling our house to move out to the country where Deb's family is.

I think WordWolf is right. I probably should update those articles that are old. I've only removed a few. I think that is a great idea.

That's on one of my oldest articles, "Drawing Swords". I went over the Passing of the Patriarch paper, which I felt was a joke. I quoted CG all over the place. Back then I was still trying to defend VPW though, so some people might like that. But if I had written it today, I doubt my defense of VPW would be there. So much learned over a few years checking so much out.

Thought I would just reveal myself here and tell everyone that my name is Steve Spencer. I do have a web magazine entitled Christian Heritage Online and the link is: Christian Heritage Online To be honest, I used to be a supporter of VPW and even make excuses for his actions, but over time, and plugging over the old doctrine I thought was right, found out to the contrary on several occasions. I do not want to offend Wierwille supporters on this site, but now my articles pretty much argue his doctrine. I hope not too many are upset. I have found I took issue with Bullinger as well on some occasions. My apologies to those following VPW but I do not know what to say anymore about the doctrine. While I do not attack the man himself, I have found myself confronting his teachings. So not all will like the site. Some might. I am not sure. Articles there range from a few pages long to over 50 pages long. So I will not introduce myself anymore as the man who is the opposite of everything you know, but just the guy who had some issues with PFAL and other established Way teachings. God Bless you all no matter what you think of the site. I think the veterans of TWI deserve some kind of pension or medal or something like that. Steve Spencer

Digger Just a word to know how you feel. When I was trying to ask certain women in the Way out a long time ago, other so-called leaders intervened to get them away from me, with no real good reason that I could think of. I lost a lot of good dates back then. After leaving, I had the freedom to date as I chose and married a wonderful and beautiful woman. I hate to say this, but the men who tried to keep me from certain women in the Way, well, perhaps they did not know as much as they should. Their own marriages all fell apart. I kind of grieve thinking about it because I knew their wives and they were great ladies. I felt bad for them. I've since let go of the bitterness and would like to see those guys again, but they are still in the Way and not allowed to talk to me since I left. God, Digger, I really felt a lump in my throat reading your letter. It really hit home and got to me. I rarely shed tears but reading your story brought tears to my eyes. I felt so bad for you. But I was thrilled to hear that you are okay. Eagle

I stayed in longer even after seeing the abuse trying to "fix" it myself. It only drew me into the mess. I left.

The smartest thing LCM ever said? When introducing himself he got his name right, I am sure. No, wait, it was Loy, not Craig. Well, whatever. He got Martindale right.

If TWI changed its name to the Prevailing Household, I suppose those churches or ministries with either the names "Prevailing" or "Household" would be forced to sue TPH for copyright, trademark, and patent infringements. I think it would be safer to take on a name nobody would sue them over, Like, Doctrines Under Ministry Business After Staying Sober, or D.U.M.B.A.S.S. I kind of figure the DUMBASS Ministry would have no lawsuits filed against it for name infringement. I hope my contribution helps here.

The dumbest thing that LCM ever said to me was in the Advanced Class Special of '92 where he declared that people should not pray to Jesus because there were devil spirits named Jesus. So help me, I checked my Bible through and through and came up with no devil spirit named Jesus. So I suppose he got that by revelation. Whatever. The dumbest thing he ever did was to mark and avoid rather than just let the criticism blow over his head and move forward. That wiped out half the ministry money there. Then he hired Corps on full time causing a major overhead expense and let them go in a year, causing the loyal followers to lose their career jobs and when they were released, could not get them back, the ministry losing a great deal of money then. Then the lawsuits over his sexual capades, the lesbian thing with Eve.

I think this site should be renamed "The Way of the International Cafe".

Lawsuit? I've thought about it...

Were there "church courts" which decided if you would be marked and avoided or thrown out of a ministry or church in other denominations? I didn't know that. I never saw a trial or hearing, just told to leave by local fellowship leaders and area leaders. So I guess TWI had a lot of authorized Kangaroo courts.

As long as TWI still abuses and still exists to abuse (Oh, they are so tough...!!!!!) we will continue to let it be known here. The organization thinks they are bad-asses for Christ. All they are are a bunch of no-good, un-Christ-like, sorry excuse for Christians that the world has ever seen. They are the worst ambassadors for Christ one could ever imagine. Their paranoia and anal-retentiveness surpasses all the combined schizophrenics in group therapy combined. And they still play LCM's crapful of classes, none of them accurate. They still magnify a serial rapist. And that is what I think of LCM. And anybody else in that organization that did what he did. Why do we keep going? To prevent another person from getting involved in it and lose years of their life and self-esteem over nothing. I don't know if many at GS share my anger.