Eagle

Doug means what he says and says what he means...literally. Not trying to quote VP. When he goes after TWI because there is sacred ground there promised to those buried there, Doug meant that. This is not a show. This is for real. He means it. Whether people believe him or not.

Thanks waterbuffalo, for the support. Garth, you have no idea what you are talking about or are dealing with. I suppose you could put a man and a woman in a locked room alone, the man has a gun and gloves, and shoots the woman, and police break in and see him standing over her, gun still in hand, gun smoking, but he says he didn't do it. And because no one 'saw him shoot her', I suppose there is no 'proof'. That is your approach to dealing with issues like this. But, the real problem is, you could be given volumes of encyclopedia of facts against John Kerry and would still support him, as underhanded, pompous, and evil that he really is. Mister P-Mosh, because I said that John Kerry met the North Vietnamese in Paris in 1971 does not at all infer that we were at war with France. We probably should be, but I was talking about the North Vietnamese delegation and I had hoped you understood that. Hape4me, you organized protests in the 60s and were proud of it? And you loved your country? My opinion is that I doubt that. You helped people like Kerry and American soldiers died because the war went on too long due to the North Vietnamese counting on the protestors. The fruit of the protests? Kent State 1970 Protestors attacked and threw rocks and bottles at the National Guard, causing a backlash. I wonder who organized that disaster. Hopefully, not you. Laos, Cambodia, and South Vietnam, millions killed after the North took the South in 1975. If you leave the soldiers to do their job, they do it remarkably well. The actual record on the battlefield in Nam was...even on their home turf, we kicked their ***. The North Vietnamese were forced by Nixon to sign the 1973 agreement to cease hostilities. The French only left. Case in point, the North Vietnamese surrendered and then changed their minds after Nixon withdrew the troops. They couldn't beat us there, so they looked at the political climate of the United States and knew once Nixon brought the troops home that the people, through the loud protesting, wouldn't go back. So they waited until we were gone, then attacked the South. That is the record. I can keep this going on forever if necessary.

Garth, Yes, both the collaberations with the North Vietnamese of John Kerry in Paris in 1971 and his statements against his fellow vets are documented. The attorney general under Nixon should have had both Jane Fonda and John Kerry picked up. Don't water down treason. Kerry was still a Naval Reserve officer when he did this as well. He had no right to do it and could have been brought up by charges by the military. They didn't do that and this is the result. The guy expects us to believe him now as commander in chief. What a crock. Hape4me: The same with you. For Mister P-Mosh, Hape4me, and Garth, John Kerry as sure as anything picked up a gun and shot it right at us in Vietnam when he continuously protested our presence their giving so much hope and aid to the enemy that the NVA saw this division and launched a major offensive called the Easter offensive in 1972 which killed my friends. The bullets flying around me might as well have been shot personally by John Kerry and Jane Fonda. At least Fonda regrets what she did, though I don't believe that exonerates her now either. You vote for Kerry, fine. He's not my president. I'll just look at the United States as a country with a House and a Senate with an out-of-control judiciary, and no sitting president and watch while Kerry screws up like he always does. And whoever said it, don't ever say a vote won't count for anything. We fought too hard to give people that right. Concerning George Bush, charges of "treason" against him are ludicrous. Just another charge from those who grew up in the 60's who apparently can't leave the 60's or those raised by those who still can't get off the anti-war trip. To them, every war America fights is evil, even after 9/11. In Vietnam the argument was that Vietnam was too far away, not a threat. Today, apparently Manhatten isn't close enough either. The terrorist financial network flowed through Iraq. The link between Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein was revealed in 1999 on ABC news, though they won't replay that now, because Clinton was president then. George Bush does what every Democrat wanted when Clinton was president, to take out Saddam Hussein, and Democrats, true to their sick nature, turn the spin on it, care nothing for the safety of people in this country, and use it as a political tool against Bush. And yes, Bush should use his defense of the country after 9/11 as a campaign issue. He is forced to anyway. He's the one who fought back. Kerry is a wimp, has no backbone, his wife is a public disgrace, and the rest of the Democrats falling behind him knowing what they know have lowered themselves. Only Zel Miller had the guts to reveal what was going on. The Democrats need more Zel Millers, and less John Kerrys and Bill Clintons.

BTW, Kerry did not risk his life in Vietnam. He shot first and killed civilians before knowing they were civilians. He did shoot one frightened enemy teenager running from him in the back. Maybe we should give him credit for risking his life there. During that mission where Kerry apparently "saved" the life of one of the guys on the swift boats, it turned out the guy was on Kerry's boat when a mine went off on one of the other swift boats throwing some of those guys into the water. The men in those swift boats shot at the coast line until they were certain it was clear to rescue these men. Kerry thought he was under fire and turned his swift boat around in a 180, causing one of the guys to flip over off the ship into the water and Kerry fled the scene. When Kerry realized that they were not under fire after all, he turned around and picked up the guy out of the water he originally dumped in. That was the guy he "saved".

Garth, The guy (Kerry) is a traitor. He gave as much as he could to the enemy in Paris in 1971 as he could. Because he didn't know "top" secrets (no one at that time would trust him to any, I am sure), that none-the-less does not diminish his traitor status. Because of his collaberation with the enemy after returning from Vietnam, no one, and I mean, no American, should be voting for this guy. We have to sink very, very low to nominate a guy like this for a major party. Kerry is one sick power-hungry individual, deserves nothing except prison, and if he is elected somehow, the joint chiefs of staff should walk out with the entire military and not move a muscle until he resigns. Ignore every order as if he did not exist. No military man should take any orders from a known criminal and traitor. Why do I feel this way? Being one of the guys almost killed by the enemy because of he and Jane Fonda. Frankly, I think his candidacy should have been brought up for a vote by Vietnam Veterans. He'd have a few votes, but would be overwhelming defeated and remembered as the guy who aided the enemy, betrayed his fellow veterans, and spoke of the dead in Vietnam with dishonor. Would I serve in the armed forces under this guy? Not even close, not even if drafted again. I would sooner help my country by joining an independent force to defend America outside its borders, with no input from him if he was commander-in-chief. Clinton was a poor enough military leader. Kerry is worse. This time, people should NOT be voting party, but looking right at Kerry and what he did. Thirty, fifty, even one hundred years ago would still matter if he was a traitor to the United States of America. The guy is a traitor, a war criminal, and a spoiled brat from my own district in Massachusetts.

I believe Kerry did better in the debate. But I can't vote for him because he is an American traitor from the Vietnam War, so he doesn't belong in the Senate, never mind the presidency. He belongs in prison and so does Bill Clinton. I would sooner vote for Homer Simpson, the animated character, or Mickey Mouse. Bush lost a lot of opportunities where Kerry left himself wide open. I'll bet his staff is working with him now. Bush should have blown Kerry away and did not do that. The candidates were not supposed to have the questions in advance per the moderator. However, I did notice the moderator brought up questions to both of them more about the Iraqi war and "Bush's record" and did not touch on Kerry's record once. This scenario laid up by the moderator had Bush on the defensive all night. Bush to me is not that good a debater, but I don't believe Kerry is either because his practice is to shoot off at the mouth without thinking. On this debate, Kerry was smooth and prepared to answer the questions, as if expecting them, as if he had scripted answers. After the CBS fiasco, I was wondering if the moderator faxed the questions he was going to ask to the Kerry campaign so they could practice and left Bush out. Some of us strongly suspect that and would like the phone records from the moderators home and office cross-checked with the Kerry campaign to see if he used their fax machine. Conspiracy theory, I know, but the groundwork was laid for the hostile atmosphere obviously sensed by Bush in which he couldn't complain because he would look like a sore sport. I am voting for Bush. I don't like all his agenda, but I trust him the best. Kerry, to me never has and never will earn my trust after Vietnam, which I wish HE would stop bringing up. Doesn't this thread belong in a different forum?

Mrs. Wierwille is a true saint. I have met her, she is genuinely kind and considerate, and often visited those at lunch tables that were snubbed by others when she saw that going on. I have seen this. I think she has a heart of gold and does honor to her family, especially J.P. God Bless her heart.

The way LCM was it was hard to believe he was born again at all. Exie, you are still 10,000 posts ahead of me. I think you should debate John Kerry. He wouldn't beat you no way, no how. Of course, you would have to admit for his sake you were a Bush "plant". And an investigation would ensue with Dan Rather bringing up some fake documents about you and Grease Spot.

Abigail, I really can identify with you. I am not a recent outie. I have been out now close to twelve years after being in it twelve years. My last days I was harassed so bad for the most insignificant things that I actually prayed to God to help me get out. Problem was I had no place to live and I was an Apprentice Corpse that had planned to go WOW. After praying, and in fact, while praying, an old friend of mine appeared and asked if I would help him fix his apartment up with placing panel, building closets and repairing a ceiling. He had no money to pay me so he offered to let me move in rent free for six months. After that I got a major job and never looked back. But the harassment did not end there. Former fellowship wayfers either called or wrote letters to harass me telling me I was "bewitched" or "out of fellowship", "not following leadership", "possessed", and "off the Word". On one phone call, a fellowship coordinator's wife called me and advised me that I was outside God's protection, off the word, and I had some explaining to do." I then asked her to get her husband, the Corpse fellowship coordinator on the phone, and advised him that if he or his wife ever called, wrote, or contacted me again, I would personally come to their home and "explain" myself in his face, several times, and not let up, and not care if I spent jail time because of it. In other words, I got somewhat violent on the phone and physically threatened him. He hung up on me. No one in my area ever called or wrote to me again, but I did hear through the grapevine that I was "marked and avoided". I suppose the violent reaction was not the right way to go. I guess I could have called the police. Not sure how people would view what I did. I think I just had enough and couldn't take it anymore. Free twelve years this November 1, 2004.

I think Mister P-Mosh one-upped me there. I need to figure out a better one now. Damn you liberals.

I think the topic of sex is disgusting. How dare you post it as a thread on Grease Spot. You should all be ashamed of yourself. And that rumor by the Swifties that I had sex with John Kerry in Vietnam is a total lie. We waited until Jane Fonda was gone.

I tried to get sexually harassed on Grease Spot by the ladies, but they were not interested. I now find it hard to believe that sex relieves tension, gets rid of headaches, and unblocks my stuffy allergy-related nose. Cyber-sex on GS is the pitts. Not one lady has come forward to sexually harass me. Okay, there was one guy. He doesn't count.

John Lynn! Rejected? Say it isn't so!!!!.... This is like...marked and avoided...and I don't believe in marked and avoided...so anyone who believes that should be marked and avoided...

How about the "I apologize to Osama Bin Laden" Kerry-Edwards blow-up fireworks? Wait, this belongs on a different thread.

Having grown up in New England, Fall will always be mine and my wife's favorite, even if we live in Ohio.

That was just typical of Way Corps elitism. Only certain individuals "worthy" to receive some more of the Word never taught. Go figure. To Hell with that. I am sure if there was anything there worth sharing that was accurate, God would see to it that we get it, too. If not from TWI, then some other source.

No, it is still the same. If there was change, they would just let Doug McMullan and any other visitors to gravesites and Mrs. Wierwille would have received something of a retirement insurance policy to keep her in her home. The trustees should have one for at least high level contributors to the ministry, especially a Founding Lady, don't you think? Don't believe for a minute there are "laws" against it. They are still the same. Cross them and see how much love comes out.

What I dislike most while with TWI was the idea that Trinitarians were "evil, possessed'" and in the words of LCM, had "homosexual spirits". A bizarre conclusion. Most trinitarians I met were kind, considerate, and were not as hateful. I think most ex-Way ministries still go with the no trinity idea of VPW, but they do not spout off like TWI on people that believe in the trinity. I am not sure if TWI followers are still hateful to trinitarians or not.

Sky4it: Thanks. Sounds like you studied and found that, too. It's refreshing that there are those out there and here on GS that look into these things. God Bless.

Thanks, TSRTS (The Song Remains The Same): I am older. I like to put on these fake photos to make myself look younger. Put gray in the hair on the sides and a reddish blond mustache and that is me. I do not have a doctorate yet, though that may be in the future. Money, time, and stress are bogging me down at this time. I have to get rid of the stress in my life before I can take on a doctoral study. The money and time I can make. My adult kids stress me out a lot. It is wavering, but until certain things are done, like picking up their lives for themselves, I'll be under some stress. One of the kids is bipolar and mentally challenged as an adult, so I have to deal with that. Frankly, he cannot help the way he is. I noticed you mentioned Wierwille said he operated all five gift ministries. I studied the gift ministries and all five are available to all. But it depends on whether they really operate them. I doubt his ministry of an apostle. He flunked pastoring with his sexual escapades, flunked teaching by copying others, was more like a false prophet, but he did evangelize well. I always thought Donnie Fugit did well in all five areas. An apostle just means "someone sent from one place to another", as if to begin a ministry in a certain place. There were twelve apostles and twelve tribes of Israel. After Israel they were to bring it to the Gentiles. There was nothing in the word "apostle" that indicated anything about "new light". Song, you are deep in seeing VPW for what he was. Thanks.

Pjroberge's assessment on a doctoral dissertation and thesis sounds very accurate. Much more advanced than a Masters thesis. Research is about three years, you do have a panel of mentors or advisors who will ride you until you get it right, and then when this panel is satisfied, then it is either accepted or goes before another board or panel for an independent review of the thesis, its development and so forth. If accepted by this panel or committee, usually after about 250 to 350 pages, then you are approved for your doctorate. All that, and this begins only after certain classes are taken first. The doctoral research is a killer in a real, accredited university. It makes my "Capstone", though tough, look like nothing.

After reading all this, I guess I feel sorry for the guy. I don't know what his doctoral thesis was. He should have had a thesis for his Masters as well. Anyone know what that was? I applied for, and was accepted at, Boston University and Ohio State University. I could not get up the tuition for BU (in those days, federal and state student loans were not that abundant and my family was poor, but not poor enough to qualify for special assistance on tuition). I chose to go to Ohio State University and graduated from there. My Masters came from Antioch University, and there we were required to complete, prior to graduation, a "Capstone", which is the business equivalent of a thesis. They were on average about 100 pages long. The research was quite grueling especially when were were assigned the topics of research. It took months, an entire quarter, and weren't assigned the topic until the last quarter. The idea was to start and finish it within the three months of the course. Most of us did. The class began with 29 students and 19 finished and graduated. It was a personal feeling of accomplishment to complete the Masters degree after that. Graduation sure felt good to me after the Capstone. That is somewhat like a doctoral thesis is supposed to be like, except harder than even that. I believe you can choose your own subject for your thesis at doctoral level, but the subject matter is more intense, the research even more extensive, and it is judged by a panel of other professors at doctoral level and if they approve your thesis, then after all the study, research, and writing, are granted a doctoral degree. This is the standard for an accredited degree. The other is that the university or college granting the degree be part of the six major accrediting agencies in the United States or at least of the two or three major religious accrediting agencies which are in the United States but located down south. If they are not accredited, there is a reason.

dmiller: That does sound refreshing that not only JAL and John Schoenheit spoke out. The "behind my back" statement by Craig might have been paranoia. Anybody else think that?

I realize we don't see JAL and JS talking about a lot of things being done by VPW in his letter, but I am speaking about afterward when they told anyone that would hear about VPW's affairs and anything else they were doing to believers. They didn't do it behind the BOT's backs, either, according to LCM in his Galatians Tapes meetings at TWI in 1989. I quote, "Most of the people that said things about me went behind my back. John Lynn would say it right to my face." Was there anybody else there at that Galatians Tapes weekend in 1989 that remembers Craigger saying that? It is still very fresh in my memory.

A long time ago, John Lynn, like most of us, backed VPW and TWI. The thing I liked about JAL is the fact he was one of the first in a major way to confront VPW's behavior as well as LCM's behavior in a public way. I spoke to John Schoenheit and John Lynn in the late 80's and they spared no criticism of the way things were going. It took me until 1992 to leave TWI and even more time before I decided to believe LCM was doing what he was doing, and even a longer time before I began to suspect something was even wrong with the PFAL or VPW teachings. I remember, specifically, on my website, giving a tribute to VPW in 2001, nine years after leaving. Then as recently as a year ago, discovered what I considered grave errors and for the first time, saw the plagiarism, even though it was out there all the time. I don't bash the guy, but I sure don't offer tributes any more and in fact argue his doctrine directly on line. I also now commit the unpardonable acts of occasionally disputing EW Bullinger and George Lamsa. The people of the TWI of old would have a fit and think I was seed of the serpent, or something like that. I don't know why it took so many years to let go...to turn around...to get my sight back. The funny thing was, I went into some of the research to prove VPW was right and came out flabbergasted. Worse, a lot of GS people had been saying it for years. I don't know why I didn't hear it. I must have been deaf as well as blind. God Bless everyone here.