Eagle

I remember leading a fellowship that grew from four to 15-21 people in its peak. I began with four, rose to 15, then rose again to 21. Then it disintegrated down to two, my roommate and I. What changed? What made it grow I believe was offering coffee, both caffienated and decaf with different kinds of cream to people that came, along with donuts or pastries to make them feel at home or in case they came and skipped breakfast. I had about fifteen minutes of time to let people know each other before beginning and never asked why people were "late", which occurred at times. In fact, I would personally greet them at the door and shake their hands and let them take a seat telling them how glad I was to see them and let them either have time to get coffee or refreshments or I would get it myself for them. I would then settle back and continue fellowship. I kept the temperature a warm 72-75 degrees in the cold winter and took their jackets to my bedroom. Women held their purses with them with their Bibles. In the summer we cooled the place to 70-72 degrees and served cold drinks with coffee. Children were welcome with their parents. The teachings were not led from HQ or a Sunday Night tape but based on what I perceived to be the need of the fellowship. I did not teach on tithing but only called it love offerings or ABS. I advised I did not expect nor would teach on the tithe. Give what they wanted. Teachings included practical things such as the love of God at home, family relationships in the Bible, how to biblically get along at work, or just new research that TWI did not come up with but I came up with myself. I sometimes opened the fellowship for others to teach and they could teach on whatever they wanted so much as it was from the Word of God. They had the right to disagree with Wierwille or TWI. Before fellowship I often played Christian contemporary or instrumental music and not TWI material. People did feel relaxed listening to it as they settled in. I gave an hour and a half after fellowship for people to hang out there and just talk and sometimes we went out for breakfast or I would play a biblical movie or another movie for fellowship. After hitting 21 active adults, I invited a branch coordinator to come in. This was a mistake. When he saw my music, he pulled my Christian contemporary tapes out and advised me they may have devil spirits involved. He put in Singing Ladies of the Way. Not a bad tape but it had been heard over a hundred times. He also said to offer the coffee and eats after fellowship and not before, and also advised people should not be taking bathroom breaks during the fellowship. He then said that every other week we should be playing the Sunday Night tapes for fellowship and only teaching otherwise from the collaterals. People that were late were not allowed in. After fellowship, people were expected to leave. I also had to teach on the tithe. Since I was aspiring Way Corps at this time, I obeyed everything like a whipped puppy. The fellowship withing three months went from 21, to 12, to 8, to five, to four, and finally to 2. I hope I have written something on home fellowships on at least what NOT to do. Eagle

Holy @!#$! I left in 1992. I HEARD about all that. You mean, TC were forced to resign because they had mortgages? Holy @!#$! Does anybody understand how that affects the membership and financial foundation of an organization when bonehead decisions are made like that? Holy @!#$! I have a mentally challenged son. He cannot comprehend math. Any math. But even HE would have run this organization better than that. Eagle

I always thought of the VPW TWI as just TWI. When Martindale came in as the new president, I called it TWI II as the way he ran things were drastically different from TWI or Wierwille's TWI. When Rosie came in, some of the legalism or abuse was dropped somewhat and some policies changed, and I decided to refer to that as TWI III. Any comments?

I agree with other posters here that say to go ahead and write her back and gave some examples. I once wrote a letter to a TWI member a few years after departing and got a response from her saying that unless I followed TWI and admitted that LCM was the MOG that I was not to write to her again. I wrote to her again and basically said that I was not giving her the last word on that and that I do not follow the corrupt practices of TWI and no one tells me who the MOG is unless they are speaking of Jesus Christ. I also told her I did not appreciate the hostile nature of her letter and advised her to NEVER write another like that again. Then I told her I had no problem not contacting her after this. But I knew I couldn't win mine over. I thought hitting her hard right back was the only appropriate action. But yours sounds at least a little nicer, which is why I recommend not only writing her back but inviting her to dinner at your place or a weekend together somewhere away from TWI.

Good Advice '88. That does help ease my frustration a lot. To know that CFF is slowly getting away from the absolutism of VPW and strike out on their own with just God and the Word sounds pretty good. I just can't take it anymore, no, not what they teach, but how they treat others with different opinions on Wierwille's teachings. I have not checked Dale Sides so he wasn't included as a group I was frustrated with. I think as time goes on, some groups will drop a lot of Wierwillisms and be themselves. Some won't. I think CES has been Wierwille-free since its beginning. I don't know why I put them on the list. I did have some problems with a few of their people but JAL and MG and JS were okay. The Geerites were almost impossible. I didn't hang around those groups. Eagle

Actually, since I am speaking out more forcefully here out of sheer frustration, I can honestly say I expect it from current TWI members. If they say anything to me, I can just tell them to Shut UP and move on. Nothing I can do for them. What bothered me were the others that left TWI and joined other groups hanging to Wierwille's every word from the past. And even then, there were the Geerites who won't accept criticism of him either. I have to wonder if anyone should even bother joining a splinter group like CFF, CES, or Vince Finnegan's group or any other group and just go back to church as we did. Ignoring these groups seems to me to help to avoid these kinds of people who just CANNOT BE CIVIL OR KIND with someone not involved with their group. Have to say the more I think about it the angrier I get. You can bet that the ones who cut off from me over this will surely get their wish and never hear from me again. My God, a lot of these people cannot handle a simple diversion from the Blue Book no matter how accurate the information portrayed from the Bible against some of it is. I can handle those that disagree with me here...no problem here. They just disagree and we move on to the next topic and talk about that. I don't mind disagreement. I mind being treated as a "heathen", that's what I mind. Well, now every one knows how upset I am over this. Sorry if I sound over the edge. Eagle

I also did not like the phrase "Father In The Word". That one really, really bothered me all the time I was with TWI. And I agree the title "Doctor" bothered me when he was quoted, especially as a substitute for the Bible. In the latter years of LCM's reign of terror and the first couple of years of TWI III, a Corps buddy of mine, (raised by LCM, though), admitted to me that three websites stood out as "marked", so to speak, and banned. The internet was banned in general, he said, but a lot of Corps were "allowed" to use it, but not visit Waydale, (later then Greasespot), Living Epistles, and Roberge's site. The reasons for not being allowed to see Waydale and Greasespot were obvious (so much negative press), Roberge's site exposed lawsuits and other legal matters against TWI, and finally Raf's site, which pretty much only went after the doctrinal side. But for some reason, that REALLY got to them. At least the ones who followed Wierwille, then Martindale, then if they left, some Wierwille splinter group. I suppose the friends that split away from me over Wierwille may feel the same way about Raf. I think. Not sure. He challenges the Blue book in a lot of places, for crying out loud. To these people, it is the crime of the century, somewhere ranking near the unforgivable sin. No, no...not the Blue Book! Raf, if you're reading this, would it really bother you that people thought you were "evil" for disagreeing in some places on the Blue Book with Wierwille? I mean, it's past midnight and you are still posting your disagreements with the Blue Book and some other PFAL stuff. I now really believe some people I know cringe over it. Almost like THEY ARE possessed. Eagle

With the exception of GS and LES, I have come to find disassociating myself from those who disassociated themselves from us due to differences in Wierwillinian doctrines. It is in fact easier to fellowship with those who never heard of TWI. GS and LES people are normal, at least from our perspective. Unless, of course, Paw and Raf begin demanding of me a double tithe and declare that if I stop posting I'll be a Wierwillian by midnight. Eagle

Obviously, I am not the only one. The funny thing is that I defended VPW as a person but not his doctrine. It still was not good enough. It was interesting the parallel TWI had with a few major denominations in this respect. I had forgotten how I had been raised as an orthodox Roman Catholic, actually believing Protestants (those professing Christ but not the Roman Catholic Church) were all going to hell. I could not talk to or even date a non-Catholic girl in my high school years. Perhaps I have changed. I sure did not marry a Catholic but a Methodist, who in turn left her church and we attend a United Brethren denomination. This church makes fun of no one. We like it. Everybody respects the pastor but they sure don't think he is the MOGFODAT. He is called by his first name and tries to greet as many people as possible. Nobody feels threatened and everyone feels welcome. The church is growing.

Has anyone had the experience, even recently, of being ignored, cast out, or put down because they may disagree with a few of Wierwille's doctrines? I have. Friends of mine who have followed Wierwille even after leaving the Way have cut me off after reading articles on my site (now mostly taken down) that were critical of some of the foundational doctrine. I never spoke about his alleged plagiarism or sexcapades, though I could have, I suppose, but just spoke about differences I had and presented the reasons why on the site. I have emailed these people (more than one or two, roughly about a dozen or so) asking if we could still be friends but have received no response. I'm not sure if this was learned from Wierwille or Martindale now, the "Mark and Avoid" thing. I don't let it bother me now, but it did bother me. I just have to move on. Anybody out there having the same thing happening to them or having it happen to them in the past? Best friends, spouses, etc? Eagle :(

LCM didn't think that one through. He let others rule what we call ourselves. "Christ-in's" or "Christians" may have seemed bad to unbelievers, but it was a badge of honor to believers. I love being called a Christian.

Did I read right on this thread? There are a few here that do not care about the Bible anymore? If that is true, did TWI have anything with turning you off to it? If so, could anyone think to check out some other church or ministry? Just curious. Eagle

I'm glad pretty much everybody here at GS can tolerate CHRIST-mas! You must not have been fully brainwashed...some resistance to the MOG during those times, I think... I think the posters here are right.... Easter was bad because the name was pagan and it should have been called Resurrection Day. ...Okay, fine...I'll go along with that. January 1st is not really the new year...Tishri 1 is... ...like God cares about that right now...Christ already was born... Christmas was pagan after the Roman Saturnalia...should just be a winter holiday...Ho-Ho or Household holidays... ...depended on which household anyway...Trustee household...Corps household...or just everyone else's generic household...never ONE household... ...no Christian thinks "pagan" at Christmas anyway...they think Christ...and well...shopping... and Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny are harmless child fantasies...I know no one warped from the experience... ...maybe LCM, though...perhaps he had a thing for the Tooth Fairy all those years and we never knew it...damn those Disney characters... the months were pagan...had to be changed... the days of the week were pagan...had to be changed... the name "Christian" was even bad...I still can't understand why he thought that...anybody shed light on that conversation or teaching Craig gave on that?... someone was right...give it a while and even our names were bad..and names are re-assigned... Eagle

I'm glad to be celebrating Christ-mas again! This "Ho-Ho" holiday crap was driving me nuts. Eagle

I remember Jonny's time in TWI because I was there in the earlier days when it was a blast to go to twig and to TWI. VPW may have had a little legalism, but from what I saw, he had a lot more grace than LCM. I know exactly what George St. George is talking about, too. My tenure took me into the nineties, the decade where if you did anything at all, right or wrong, you were chewed out for it. The ministry actually took great pains to find fault. Bad, even dark times in the nineties, during the LCM years that is. Eagle

My wife and I are much happier since joining a church. No pressure, or hardly any. No condemnation. We are making friends. We are getting closer to God and prayers are getting answered, regardless of what I was taught in old TWI II. I don't know too much what is being taught about the church in TWI III. I am out of sources. All of them were from TWI II or leftover from that time with a couple who left during the lawsuits presided under Rosalie. The LCM/TWI II lawsuits, that is. Eagle

The sex thing was a major violation and behavior like that did not belong at TWI or any other church and the two guys should have not joined the Corps. They knew what the doctrine was, knew how everyone else felt about that and came in anyway. Yeah, turning in major violators like that was expected. It always was. The same went for heterosexual couples having sex on the grounds. If caught, they were to be kicked out, too. Of course, LCM was the exception. HA! Other petty "violations" included buying coffee and bring it in instead of letting a Corps brother or sister make it for you. They lost the blessing, therefore, I cheated them. I got chewed out for that. Another was when I was just learning to interpret tongues, I had a hard time. So a Corps member "cast out the devil spirit" causing it. I did not like VPW's Christian Family and Sex class. I was told I did not have spiritual insight. Hell, I just thought the class was weird. Another time I picked up a second hand suit that was not that modern, but it was a suit and I used it for functions. I had no money after tithing and abundantly sharing to TWI. I got the "look" from leadership as if I failed in life, or something. As Apprentice Corps, I was in charge one time of a dinner setup at the BRC. We prayed for the success of the dinner after the teaching there. When the teaching was over, the food was not yet at the designated stations. I got "the look" (the you are an evil, worthless person look) until just as the believers entered so did the food. The food made it exactly a couple of seconds before the people got to eat it. The food was piping hot. It was better that way so I got the heads up after that. There are others. The list keeps going...

The first two years were nice, then I began to feel some legalism. It progressed to the point of breaking twelve years later when I left. I had twelve years experience in TWI. They did teach me better than any other church or ministry how to study the Bible, at least according to their specifications. That fascination stuck with me throughout the years. I too it to new levels after I left and discarded their boundaries. For being able to research the Word as I have I credit TWI with getting me started, but not crediting them with helping me to find the conclusions based on research. They were too restrictive.

Whoa, These are pretty decent replies. Exie and Belle have experience. I was a TC for a while, about three and a half years, and while I never turned anyone in, did get judgmental to the point of turning people off from my fellowship. I was taught this way. I was not taught to turn people in, but I did not go that far into the Corps program. To be fair and honest, there were some great Corps people out there. They were not abusive but pretty fair and even loving. When the abuse came down the pike, apparently ordered by LCM by people I have spoken with that were there, (I witnessed some of his own abuse myself), the Corps that refused to do it just turned him down and left, preferring to be "marked and avoided" and kicked out of the Corps rather than do what was ordered. Tough times in those days. Belle, that was a wonderful posting. I know exactly what you were talking about. And I know we all here, if we could travel back in time, would reverse a lot of things. Exie, I saw you speak of it once and didn't get to reply. It was a while back. It just came to thought recently what you were talking about so I posted my personal experience. Eagle

Has anyone ever had the experience of doing some minor infraction and had a Corps brother or sister turn you in for it even though nothing would have come of it? One experience I had was that I was late for a teaching at the '92 Advanced Class Special and while I was walking toward the auditorium in peace, a person that I sponsored heavily in the Corps came up and asked me what I was doing. Since I did not feel anything was wrong by missing the first hour or teaching, I said I was going to go to the teaching but rather than walk in and disturb anyone decided to go to work setting up the food tents for lunch. The reason I was late was for helping my roommate move to HQ that late night and get him situated so that the TWI motor pool would have a body man working that day. I got to bed at 4:00am and awakened at 7:00am. I was exhausted, but got up and somehow my ride didn't get me there at HQ from my hotel until 9:00am, an hour after the teaching began, so I decided to skip that morning and do more work to keep myself awake, sleep my lunch hour in Founders Hall lobby on a couch, then trust that this would help me for the afternoon teaching. There was no attendance being taken at this time, we normally just went in and attended. I went and worked and when lunch came, my name was called out on the loud speaker all over the lunch tent and I was confronted by the trunk and state coordinator. I was royally chewed out, threatened to be kicked out of the Advanced Class Special (that I paid a lot of money for...also being out the hotel I paid for...) and when I explained my working throughout the night I was told that they personally had gone without sleep many times and I should have been there anyway. I was chewed out worse because I was apprentice Corps that year. I was "forgiven" and told not to do that again. The only person that could have told them was that one person who knew...the one I sponsored through the Corps...only to "turn me in". That person did give me rather a glaring stare after I told her. Here is what I did about that... I never volunteered for another activity again...I had to be assigned. When HQ needed volunteers from the Corps...I was not to be found. I seriously thought of chucking the class and demanding my money back. I lost respect for so-called "leadership" who were paid to lose sleep as opposed to myself who worked two jobs at that time and another full time volunteer job with TWI serving Corps grads and area leaders and HQ. I never divulged or trusted any counseling from anyone in the Corps again. By November 1, 1992, I was out of there. I doubt these leaders were losing the sleep I was in my service to this organization. This was the LCM era...I know people will flame me but ... I doubt Rosalie and the current TWI BOD would do this...but LCM I believe must have been teaching this philosophy of "back-stabbing for God". Nonetheless...I took off and ultimately got better after leaving. Eagle

Did anyone ever accidently say the word "Christmas" and have a ton of people turn and stare at you? Then correct you for your "idolotry"? Then squeal on you...? Then were approached by someone from the Corps to "teach" you about the REAL meaning of Christmas? Paganism...they said...??? I just always thought Christmas was great except people had the date of Christ mixed up. That's all. Yes, yes, I know. Some of the traditions were pagan... But at Christmas, I never thought of other gods, just Jesus Christ. The pagan thing was not in my heart...besides...God made the trees, not pagans, so I would do as I wish with them even if pagans did the same earlier in their own way... Gift-giving was not exclusive to pagans... Okay, Santa Claus was a little pagan... So I gave up believing in him last year... ...after a temper tantrum...

Personal Timeline: In 1966, I was a freshman in high school. I first read a Way Magazine probably in 1965 which I remember was a smaller version, just a little bigger than TV guide or something like that. It was in a barber shop while I was waiting to get a haircut. In 1967, I was into baseball and the Boston Red Sox, as Yaz ruled that year. In 1968, I was tuning into the Tet Offensive in South Vietnam while watching the Smothers Brothers. I think the last show of the original "The Fugitive" with David Janssen aired with the one-armed man getting shot by Girard. Kimble was found innocent in a retrial. In 1969, I watched a lot of hockey in Massachusetts and got turned on by the Bruins. In 1970, I graduated from high school and the Bruins won the Stanley Cup that year. Also that year I joined the Army. The only time I had heard of the Way was from that 1965 smaller Way mag. I was in Vietnam from 1971-72 and returned as a civilian in 1974. In 1975, eight months after I came home, Saigon fell to the communists. From 1974-1980 I bumped around Ohio State with cults and Christians before running into people from the Way in September 1980. By 1982, I took PFAL and the Intermediate Class. In 1983, I graduated from Ohio State and in 1985 I returned to the Army Reserve as an Infantry officer. I was sworn in May 20, 1985, the day VPW died. While in the service I missed the Passing of the Patriarch and the power struggle, and joined the Advanced Class at Emporia in 1986. By 1989, I decided to stay with LCM as the line was drawn between Gartmore and TWI HQ. I joined the 23rd Way Corps in 1991 but left TWI November 1st, 1992 because of all the incredible abuse I saw. I was being taught to be an abusive leader and on occasion found myself being one. I didn't like it. It wasn't Christian. I left. From there until LCM left I saw TWI get worse and worse. There have been a couple of improvements since LCM left. Attitude may be the same, though. Not sure. Not there. Eagle.

rascal: That was the most moving testimony I have seen yet. I hope I speak not only for myself and my wife but for most here saying we love you and never would have seen you go through the things you did. Yet I know I witnessed a lot of these things happening to others. I left and tried talking others, for their own sake, into leaving. I got no one to leave, but ultimately those I spoke with left on their own several years later. Eagle

Thanks White Dove and Raf, Raf, I posted a PM to you. Sounds like Geer had this article and posted it in his Future Considerations before putting it in the book "Take A Stand For God". But Geer always copied an old teaching of Wierwille's so I was still wondering what the original source of the article was...the Way Mag? Thanks for helping... Eagle

Thanks White Dove...That's a start for sure. I have a publication date of 1994 from Amazon.com for that book but it was not available there. It is a book by Chris Geer written posthumously for VPW. Anybody just happen to have a copy of that book, "Take A Stand For God", and can tell me the publisher, copyright date, and what the source Geer gived for Wierwille on that article? I suspect it is an old Way Mag article as well. I'd like to get a copy of that book, too. I wanted to see another side to that issue and the book might have related information on it.