Eagle

In Advanced Class 1986 in Emporia, a young woman that was speaking behind a curtain (or at least I think it was that...no kidding...) spoke of being involved with her sister and over 50 others on a trip to Europe for psychic healing. They came back and were witnessed to by someone from TWI. At that point the two sisters, especially one, was beaten and harrassed by demons (pulling of hair, dragged across the floor, actual red welts on her body) when they were contemplating accepting Jesus Christ. They both finally did, the demon activity stopped, and they tried to get hold of the other 50 or so in the psychic healing group that had gone to Europe years before. It turned out all others had died of some disease with the exception of these two sisters, who accepted Christ. Can anyone tell me if: 1) You remember this story... 2) Believe the story... 3) Know the person(s) who actually experienced this haunting, of sorts. I know of someone that had a similar experience, but credibility is important. She hid behind a curtain then. Is she free to reveal who she was? Just curious. Eagle

I guess that would be anytime from the 60s and on, and depending on who experienced the legalism. The word "doulos" comes to mind when remembering a slave-master relationship. It's been so long. I started to experience legalism from the start and did not know it, in 1980-1982, when they charged $100.00 for the PFAL class. If I missed fellowship someone would track me down and ask how I was doing, but control was disguised as concern. Also in 1982 in the Intermediate class, some woman said I was possessed for having trouble interpreting tongues. In 1986, we were not allowed to leave the campus at Emporia during the Advanced Class. Things such as "Motion to Devotion" drove me nuts and it was required. Since I felt like an idiot doing it, I refused. I was not the only one. Many did not and we were sort of threatened with being kicked out of the class. When we did not do it again, I suppose they gave up and did not try to force us and we all finished the class. Later, people who left in 1986 were considered copouts. From 1986 to 1992 when I left, Corps, Advanced Class and general believers were pretty much spying on each other and turning each other in for offenses where an offense shouldn't even exist, such as buying coffee for yourself and not letting another person make it for you so they could get a reward from God. Things such as this. It was especially shocking when you never knew someone was supposed to give you free coffee, most of it out of the Corps sponsorship I gave to them. Which means I paid for it anyway. Kicked out of a cemetary or funeral, there is more. And after finally leaving, the phone calls and hate mail received from believers telling me God Bless at the beginning of the message and I was heading to Hell at the end. I guess, stuff like that.

I agree we must forgive and TRY to forget. Until then, this is our greatest source of comfort with those who shared the experience. It is tough to forgive, I know, especially those who were sexually abused by Way leaders. Amazingly, some have. But the toughest part is forgetting. We sure hate those old feelings coming back once we try to put them behind. I've received a lot of comfort from posters here.

The one I like best is: "Will the class teach me how to believe for God's promises?" "Absolutely! If you sign up, the class will teach you how to believe! "Then I want to take the class. Here's that green card..." "You forgot the money..." "What money?" "The $100.00 for the class..." "I didn't know there was a charge..." "It's a donation..." "Oh, thank God...I'm broke right now...but I'll see what I can scrape up later..." "But without the $100.00, you can't attend the class..." "Then it's not a donation, it's a charge, right?" "No, it is only available to those with the heart to give $100.00." "Does that mean if we're poor, we don't have heart?" "No. It means that you just need to believe for the money..." "But I want to take the class to learn to believe..." "You can believe to do that, you know..."

I can't see that in cases of churches or ministries that anyone can sue another for using the same verses of scripture for determining their names. Bad court decisions. They should tell TWI to get out of court and fine them for frivolous lawsuits.

I was drawn to the 'Judas Hanged' chapter of one of the books and did get fascinated by "Eli, Eli" and the four crucified and six denials of Peter. The four crucified and six denials theories don't hold water with me today. I was told by one of the first members of CES that VPW had a "sexual fixation." I sort of believed that after taking his CFS class. Pretty bad. Also the idea that VPW went along with the castration of Noah thing originally presented by Ernest Martin. That was weird, though Martin is great in most categories IMHO. The Haight Ashbury orgy thing I am just learning now in this thread.

That's a pretty good point, too.

Okay, pond. Thanks. Most seem the other way. Any others?

Thanks Eyes... I don't feel that I should remove his name because others are offended, either. The bigger audience appeal outside the Way is much more of an appeal now since the book, while selling, did not sell among its targeted audience as expected. I will still be noting Wierwille as the source. That will not change. It is also a way to keep the book going long after TWI vanishes, should that ever happen, or at least become insignificant. They don't seem to change at all. I expect the ex-Wayers that were admirers of Wierwille will not buy the book anyway. But there are those in the greater Christian audience that wants to remedy the gospel "contradictions" or the spiritual matters discussed. That would profit those people. EyesOpen...you mentioned something about Loy...oh boy...your book sounds thought-provoking to start. Let me know when it is done, okay? Eagle

Does POV mean "point of view?" In the beginning it was written specifically for ex-Way believers. It can be purchased by anyone but was not targeted for a broad audience. It was mentioned to me that if I removed VPWs name out of it, more people that are ex-Way would buy it. I have to conclude that there are still thousands of Wierwille admirers out there that apparently don't like reading how bad his research really was. I can take his name out of the general text in almost all cases. I can delegate the source to the notes and references and subject indexes. I can change the name of some of the chapters to appeal to a much broader audience and turn it into a biblical mysteries book. Since many people do NOT buy it based on being offended that Wierwille is directly challenged in the book, I can separate his name from the doctrine in the general text and subscript him to the back of the book. I can change the introduction easily. However, my belief here is that even if I take his name from the general text, those ex-Wayers that wanted his name removed will most likely STILL NOT buy it because they would still want to believe the old PFAL doctrine anyway. Showing scripture to the contrary will not matter to them in any way, based on my experience. If I do this, it would be to market it for a general audience who could not relate to the Way experience, but can relate to the biblical contradictions or far out theology. I've been told by others I knew in professional marketing and advertising that were never involved with the Way that I should expand my audience but in order to do that, have to get rid of the cult mentality mentioned in the book, yet keep with the scriptural issues mentioned because the Way is not the only organization that dealt in these matters. This may be the way to go, whether or not anyone was offended. However, for those that knew the Way and were not attached to Wierwille or the Wierwille name, the original as written is the way to go for them. It would not bother them at all. I am seriously considering that new edition without Wierwille mentioned in the text (as much, if at all) and relegate the man's name to the back of the book. It will take a while yet, and my company will have to get off the ground because I need full editing control of the book. It costs too much with another publisher. That way a general audience can read it without thinking "the Way WHAT?" Eagle

Really, I'm not plugging the book, mainly because I need more editing and updating and this time, I am doing it myself. For the website, it is The Genesis Pursuit Thanks for the input on both posts so far. Hope more check in. I'll check into the "Chapter and Verse" thread.

This is not a poll but feedback. I had a nice couple visit me and my wife this past weekend and they greatly admire VPW. It was evident they knew of my book (not plugging it here...anyone that was going to buy it has pretty much bought it) "The Genesis Pursuit." In that book at least six of the twelve chapters debates what Wierwille taught in PFAL and further on in TWI. I was advised that I should put TWI in the past and would have greater success with people reading it if I did not put Wierwille down, or debate his stuff directly or use his name. They suggested I remove his name and just debate the doctrine and show him respect. I deliberately did not talk about charges of adultery and plagiarism in the book and left his personal life out of it in respect for his family. I just debated what he taught. Since Wierwille was in most cases the source of the doctrine, I found myself using him as a source in the text and showing the origin of the doctrine as Wierwille himself, or sometimes Bullinger or Lamsa. I was not asked to remove Bullinger or Lamsa's name. They advised more people would be willing to read it should I not use his name because they would take it as an attack on him personally. I admire this couple. I can remove his name and just use him as a source in the Notes and Indexes and take him out of the text and still debate the doctrine without revealing too much about where it came from. It would be a major editing of the book. I am currently editing the book now anyway but had no plans to remove Wierwille's name from it. My gut feeling is that those that do admire VPW greatly will still not read or agree with what I have written even if they read it. Any thoughts on that? It would have to be a new edition of the book and currently I am forming a small publishing company to move this book as well as others. Since I don't feel that too many at GS greatly admire VPW, though some may, I thought I could get honest feedback here. Should I go ahead and edit his name out and rewrite it quoting only the doctrinal issues? I can do this.

I can't see the gulit here, but...if it were me in those days, I probably would have busted into the landlord's residence to get that Bible back. He had no legal right to it. Of course, risking prosecution...

This is true. New York really came together after 9/11.

mstar: The wager is, if the Red Sox win...I get to sleep with her. If the Indians win...she gets to sleep with me... On another note, the Red Sox dropped another and the Yanks won, the Yanks cut their deficit to 3 1/2 games behind the Red Sox. I'm beginning to lose it here...

HiWay 29. Thanks for that info! 14 1/2 games is a great correction...but it only means the Yankees were able to cut that lead by 10 games. They probably won't catch the Sox in time, but the Wild Card will most likely be theirs. The Red Sox were the Wild Card winners the last time they won the World Series and broke the Curse of the Bambino.

One of my worst nightmares is coming true. The Yankees just took a game from the Red Sox again in a four and a half hour game comeback to beat them 8-7. This cuts the Red Sox lead over the Red Sox to 4 1/2 games. It used to be 10 1/2. Worse than that, in the Wild Card race the Yankees are leading by 3 1/2 games right now. The Yankees at least have a credible shot at beating the Red Sox as a wild card, and a long shot (yet still a shot) at overtaking the Red Sox altogether. The reason is, the Red Sox are somewhat slumping while the Yankees are on a hot streak. In 2007, the Red Sox and Yankees will fight the pennant race to the end. Now we'll see who goes to the World Series. Still rooting for the Red Sox.

I was born and raised in Boston, Massachusetts. Grew up watching Yaz, Tony C., the Hawk, George Scott, Joe Foy, Mike Andrews, Rico Petrocelli, Reggie Smith, Elston Howard and Jim Lonborg. Saw them play against Mickey Mantle, Roger Maris, Yogi Berra, Whitey Ford, and the rest of the early to mid-sixties Yankees. Most of the time they lost, though. Until 1967, anyway. My wife roots for the Indians. She is Ohio born.

The Yanks just swept yet another series over another team, gaining one game more on the Red Sox. I changed my mind. I think the Red Sox should face the Yanks at least one more series, take at least two of three games, then that should seal it. Then again, if the Yanks take two of three or sweep again, the BoSox are in serious trouble. Red Sox, win like you did in the first four months of the season! GO RED SOX!!! :eusa_clap:

Yes, I know the Bosox had a great lead over the Yanks, but being swept three games cut that lead quite a bit. If the Yanks continue to be hot in September, then the Bosox would be better to play anyone else. Kind of like letting the clock run out when you're ahead. But I like Bolshevick's motto.

You are very close on Bluzman

Juede's article is really good. I hope he posts it on his website.

ChasF: I understand where you are coming from on this, and I thought about that very thing prior to posting the topic. But now is the time to post this, right away, before something bad sets in after his falling asleep. Within a year after VPW, the ministry had power struggles. Something about VPW sets that in motion and I cannot put my finger on it. But I am not an enemy of VPW because I disagree with his stuff in PFAL. I'll now mention some things I never brought forward. From my own experience, and perhaps from writing a doctrinal book on his beliefs (I am not plugging the book here, just stating what has happened because of it), I have received mail accusing me of heresy from one person not a part of any offshoot, (I did tell GS about that one) and been taken off of phone, internet mailings by CFF followers where I live. A fellowship I used to belong to departed from VPW teaching and was subject to spying and literal infiltration by CFF people. It was weird. Since I knew John, I did not bother him with it, but just went on with our lives. I am glad I did not. I had no idea he had been sick. He did not share that with me and from what I knew, not too many others. That I understand, being a very personal thing. What worries me are the elements, still inherent in CFF, rising to the top and setting up a mark and avoid system. To be honest, I cannot say where Wayne Clapp, Jon Nessle or anyone else will stand on this either. There needs to be a lightening up of these people, even if it includes those at the top and it needs to be done right now. They should be able to receive people cordially and even friendly. Actually there was one person in CFF that did act like it did matter and kept sending emails to me and my wife, continuously offering fellowship (well, until the book was written I guess). I'd like to give him credit for that to that extent, and that was a Pat L. Leave it at that. The rest knew where we stood and avoided us. I have found now that other mainline churches sometimes do the same. More so with TWI and offshoots but it is common. There is an old Steve Green song, "Let the Walls Come Down" and basically says "...if in Christ we agree..." and he means that there are too many Christians separating themselves from each other over doctrine and Christ did not want this to happen. People should be able to express their concern over the doctrine, agree to disagree if necessary, and go on fellowshipping, not disturbing anyone's fellowship. Yes, yes, my wife and I had to put up with CFF parties in which we enjoyed their company, but if they cannot endure what we believe, we know that already and do not talk about it. What the heck, did they have any idea on how many times we had to sit in silence and listen to talk about devil spirits? Lots of times. Therefore, I respectfully request that those with any thoughts of promoting the old TWI doctrine of separating themselves from the rest of the body of Christ, refrain from doing so. It is going on. Some have had better fellowships than other in CFF and that is great, but CFF in its rescue of TWI followers, unintentionally took in people that wanted TWI all over again but with someone other than LCM. Compassion and grace are supposed to be the foundation of the CFF ministry. For those that turned us away, then maybe you should think about that. I think I had the restraint enough to leave CFF fellowships alone and CFF after deciding to go our own way. But we had wanted to keep our friendship. We found that not possible.

With John Shroyer having passed away and awaiting the Return of Jesus Christ, there is something I would like to say. I hope CFF does not turn back and go legalistic, mark and avoid and TWI-ish. The ministry is in fact filled with those who really liked VPW, and they are welcome to that. However, disagreement with VPW did not mean that those that did not fellowship with CFF wanted to cut off any relationship with those in CFF. I have found to a great degree in my own area that those involved with CFF tended to end any relationship with those that left it, did not fellowship with it, or literally just avoid those that disagreed with PFAL fundamentals. I knew John personally and he was NOT like that and discussed disagreements amicably, agreed to disagree, shook hands and offered us to attend a service in Tipp City. Unfortunately, it does worry me that others with old TWI mentality stillact like that, and if they take over, it could destroy this ministry. Just because I disagree in four crucified, six denials, Christians being possessed, etc., does not mean I want CFF to fail or go down. They are very good at spreading the gospel and I hope love is not conditional after his passing.

Satori001 I'm glad that you were able to post. Didn't know you were 88. Prayers to you in the name of Jesus Christ.