Eagle

Good one Ron G... Eagle

Anybody know from experience what causes the Wierwillites to start shunning people? In my experience it could be anything contrary to PFAL, but the Blue Book in many of my emails seemed to be the sore spot, like it was another Bible or THE BIBLE. I didn't talk about Wierwille's personal life that much because I have done things I regret in my own life. I prefer to give him a pass on those things, but doctrinal differences are fair game. VPW did teach the Word, though I disagree with a lot of what he taught now. I think he has his rewards for that. As far as his personal life, I leave that between he and God. I'll be out of town for this coming weekend enjoying a Bed and Breakfast anniversary with my wife, so I might not be seen posting here for three to four days. It will be interesting to read this thread when we get back. The feedback is incredible. Eagle

Most people that are staunch followers of Wierwille have pretty much shut me off or shunned me, not responding to friendly emails or anything. Granted I did write a few articles challenging some of what Wierwille taught. Some that gave me feedback before cutting me off said I was, along with some others, cutting down what "Doctor" taught and that PFAL should never be fooled with. What kind of foundational beliefs do Wierwillites hang on to so dearly that they would cut friends off for asking or questioning some of these doctrines? Is it challenging the material in the Blue Book? Or the more minor ones like Four Crucified or Six Denials? Do they hate any shot at Wierwille? I mentioned in an article only that Wierwille was accused of plagiarism while others point blank said he was a plagiarist, such as John Juedes. And I mentioned nothing about alleged extra-marital affairs. Any comments on this? Does anyone know for sure the one thing that really irks them? Is it really challenging the Blue Book, and if it is, why? Anybody speak to some lately (without being shunned afterward?) Eagle

Raf's article on this subject is very good. Also recommended is Ernest Martin's book called The Tithing Dilemna. The only thing I disagree with in Martin's book is his calling tithing a sin, which is hardly true, but I believe he was referring to legalistic tithing versus a person who gives 10% freely out of their hearts. Raf's article kind of sums up things that are also in Martin's book with his own very good research in a briefer version and is quicker to tell people that giving from the heart is the principle, not tithing. I don't know if Raf bought Martin's book or not, but it would have been a great reference for any article on giving or tithing. I used Martin's book. Hope I have that right from what I read. Eagle

Also Happy Birthday, Andreas! A Valentine Greeting to all the ladies of GreaseSpot. Some GS Lady please send Valentine Greetings to the guys. I can't do it. I just can't. Love, Eagle

Oakspear: You DON'T believe in hell? You can't go there, then. We just can't take you anywhere... Eagle! :)

I would like, as my 500th post, to say "I love you" to my wife, Deb! Love you, Honey! Six years married in another six days...we head off to the Bed and Breakfast weekend we planned all year! All my Love, Steve

My tire was flat today. I thought Dick Cheney walked by my car... Glad I wasn't in it. I want to live to get to my 500th post. Little by comparison to some here but a milestone for me. Owwww! Who shot me in the a**?!? Can't be Cheney, probably Hilary or Janet Reno. Eagle

Oakspear, You're right, believing the subject you're teachng is a prerequisite to teaching it. You must BELIEVE IT. BTW, I spoke with some Wierwillites about your not believing the Bible. ...You're going to hell... From the experts... Eagle

Oakspear, YOU should be teaching Bible. THAT IS how we learn about it. I felt your post was fantastic. Eagle

There was supposed to be 4-12 inches of snow in Toledo. Sunday schools closed, home fellowships cancelled, some jobs closed down... And then it didn't happen. If I dream it, does it not happen? Now I've got to quit my job as a weatherman. Eagle

More of an open field here to agree or disagree about the Way. It is like a Freedom of Speech arena for this topic, to a greater extent. Eagle

Plagiarism? Guess John Juedes has something about that. Some booklet. I don't know if he is a real Ph.D. or not as he does not mention his schools that he got his degrees from, but I take his word on it I suppose. He mention that they are accredited by regional or national organizations. If he wanted to tell us where he graduated from, then he would. But he does sell or give away a booklet or collection of things VPW plagiarised. I thought VPW was going to write a book on his life and ministry. It would begin: "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times..."

It is good to know their are Wierwille believers out there that keep an independent mind and agree to disagree, and still remain friends and sometimes fellowship. Unfortunately, this is not my experience. I wish I could say I had that experience. Eagle

I tried to do prophecy the other day. I prophecied that the Sea Hawks would win the Super Bowl. Back to the drawing board. Any other reminders of prophecy gone bad? Eagle

It has been my recent experience that those who are very solid Wierwille believers (not necessarily "Word" believers) tend in most part to "mark and avoid" those who do not take to his foundational doctrine and openly discuss or disagree with it. While it is not called "mark and avoid", it is still the same behavior. I have to keep my mind off of it because it is hard. Even old friends that are still into Wierwille cut me off, refusing to email me or fellowship. Total silence. This does not "shame" me into coming back. It gets me angrier. I can't say the rest agree or disagree here, but it makes me want to look at Wierwille and say to him, "THIS is the EXAMPLE you set? THIS is what you taught? Did you set out on purpose to elevate yourself as a god to most people or what? Because it seems to have worked. You are not my God." Then I just want to throw Wierwille and all his teachings out with the bathwater. I could care less now what Wierwille's followers think or believe after being treated like this. Some ambassadors these people turned out to be. I will continue to agree or disagree with Wierwille where and when I feel it is appropriate. If I am "heathen", fine. If I am a heretic, fine. But at least I kept my mind independent of being ruled by an image. They are REALLY going to not like what I write about next. Funny thing, though, I have more respect for TWI in this regard. They may have been callous toward the Wierwille family and I did not like that, but at least they seemed to have dropped the image. Well, maybe in favor of a newer image, burt they dropped the Wierwille god concept. Eagle.

TWI still needs to correct a lot of other doctrine. They need to literally dump all classes by lcm, research all that material again by themseves with credible people that do research, should any be left. and do their own classes up again, this time each class taught my a different person so the MOG or WOG concept dwindles. They should give up tithing as a requirement and make it a recommendation and be pleased with any offering they get. They need to make people feel much more welcome at HQ like in the seventies and early to mid-eighties instead of the treatment after that making people feel like bugs for visiting or asking for a bunk for the night that the believers pay for out of their own money anyway. They need to drop name tags as rank. The place was so anal the last I had anything to do with it. In those days, you could have taken a lump of coal and stuck it up any Corps person's a** and a diamond would have popped out. Eagle :blink:

Here are some other old-time Wayisms, if not still out there: "Who bewitched you?" "I have to reprove you..." "You need to take the Class again..." "You can't do that" replaced "You CAN do that". "Have you been tithing?" (in response to being sick or losing your job, or whatever...) "You're possessed." "Did I say you could do that?" "You're speaking out of turn." "A devil spirit looks for dirt..." (so did a lot of bizarre Corpse people...") "I cast out this devil spirit in the name of Jesus Christ" (in response to having the flu.) And the BIG ONES... "You're out of fellowship" and "You're off the Word." Eagle

Well, what I meant was a fellowship with Christian believers and God. No hard drinking. We have bars for that. Any others? Some good ideas on the thread... Eagle

I've discussed how I ran a fellowship...into the ground after listening to TWI. But it was going fine without the interference. Tell me, any ideas on how YOU would run a fellowship and attract people...seriously. Eagle

My favorotie devil spirit toonies as a kid were Tom and Jerry. Eagle There is a typo in my last post! I got possessed by that evil typing spirit of error running rampant in this thread! It must have been the Yogi Berra and Boo-Boo toonies I used to watch! Well, Yogi Bear, but the way Berra spoke, I might as well have been possessed by him. Eagle

HA! Devil spirits! What a crock... Oh my God...I laughed so hard I spilled my popcorn... ...a devil spirit made me drop my popcorn...it made me laugh at the former post... Oh Lord...Oh God...deliver me from the foul laughing popcorn-popping devil spirit, and make me like the other posters. Wait a minute. Lord, if you make me like the other posters, TWI will surely think I am the devil. Well, never mind...they think that anyway. Eagle

Wow, diazbro, does that EVER sound familiar... Devil spirits were everywhere and everything, more prominent than God and more powerful than the holy spirit to hear some speak. For example, I was in my intermediate class when I was attempting to interpret tongues. I had a rough going at first. So a Corps person tried casting the devil spirits out of the room. Then I screwed up more being so nervous. I guess reinforcements must have arrived to help screw me up. A friend of mine had the flu. He asked for prayer. He got an exorcism instead. Stuff like that. I questioned why the holy spirit in born-again believers could be overcome by devil spirits so that they could possess them. The holy spirit was silenced by devil spirits. I was "misinformed", needed "correction", not "educated" enough in PFAL, and influenced, if not "possessed" by devil spirits myself to even suggest that. I spoke to a person that left the ministry. That person was possessed and I was led by devil spirits. Anybody else have similar experiences? Part of the Micro-management style of TWI was to rule by fear, and fear of "devil spirits". IMHO. Eagle

Bring a dog to fellowship. Make him tithe of his Milkbones. Watch his reaction...

Thanks, guys. Next time I run a home fellowship it will be by my rules and my rules alone. Which are fewer rules. The only rule I had was the rule of love one toward the other. It's funny. The ABS without tithing with the 21 people averaged about $700.00 a week. When I enforced the tithe, people left. Vanished. The ABS dropped to $450.00 a week. As the rules increased, we went finally down to 2 people, ABS was $120.00 a week. The two of us left tried to push 15% because the financial totals looked so bad. Things got worse. Left alone to grow, we could have easily surpassed $1000.00 a week or roughly $52,000 to $55,000 a year. One fellowship. Love offering and not tithing. Some of the people told me they tithed because they wanted to. But when told they HAD to, they got extremely upset and not only left the fellowship but TWI. I believe they tried a couple of other fellowships in our branch before dropping, but we all had the same order to push the tithe. Finally, the fellowship died when my roommate went to work at HQ. What was the use? I closed up shop and moved.