Eagle

I am trying VERY HARD to believe that the current BOD of TWI is departing from LCM's running of this organization. This makes it SO much more difficult to discern. I do not go to any church or ministry where a security check is needed. I do not fellowship with those that agree there is a body of Christian believers on a list we should mark and avoid or kick out of a teaching of God's Word. (If that is what they are teaching) I had thought that they had long departed from LCM with only a few kinks left, like the graveyard issue. I must be wrong. You know time passes on. In this case it seems time has stood still. TWI used to say people that left would be a greasespot by midnight. It must be tougher on those to whom midnight never comes. Eagle

The "weight standards" are OFF in America. I am 5'11" and weigh 198. I am dieting to go down to 180. The standards say that for me I should weigh 155-160. I would look anorexic. Eagle

Since the 1970s we have had a vast increase in obesity, diabetes, juvenile diabetes, degenerative diseases, and cancer, especially breast cancer, as well as record cases of autism and ADD. We don't seem to check our food and water supply. Since the 1970s, we have put flouride in our water (the flouride that is used is industrial waste and used usually as a rat poison, not a natural flouride), we have gone from using sugar in our food and cereals to high fructose corn syrup, a highly concentrated form of sugar, made cheaper but much sweeter and more concentrated than regular sugar, then introduced bovine growth hormone first into dairy cows to make them make much more milk, but also into angus and beef and steak cattle to make them fatter. The same is sone to chickens. The hormone, used to make animals fatter, we drink in milk, eat in ice cream and butter, is eaten and by us, which has the same effect on the human body to help mess with the insulin produced by the body and create fat. This hormone also "junks" up a lot of organs in the cows and makes them sicker, and makes us sicker. A pancreas will fail, erectile dysfunction flourishes, thyroids and livers get clogged and so on. Should we step back in time to the days we never did any of this? I believe we would be a lot healthier. Eagle

God, I hope you win, Raf. So I can brag about it..."Hey! I know this guy!" Eagle

Sorry for the flashbacks Seth. The music of Branded is more patriotic and doesn't mention TWI. It is refreshing...at least the tapes I remembered. If they had a tape in worship of the Way and the BOT and all that stuff...well, the dog can shoot me. Eagle :unsure:

I liked the old music of Branded in the 70s and 80s. Are any of their old tapes available? Eagle

rascal, Good point. I served apprentice year only and then left the following year in November 1992. I did everything possible, gave more than 15% of my income, served and attended every function with a car breaking down all the time, giving up food and sleep to serve, and then get frowned at consistently. Believers I worked for failed to pay me, so I struggled other ways. Couldn't pay my car insurance and drove illegally ...to serve TWI. I could only afford a junk car...and got reamed for it. I had no family to support me so no money. So cruel were people, especially Martindale, that I finally told them all to chuck it. My life took off after that. I decided to face midnight. I won. Eagle

Oldies: I do understand the loyalty letter to paid employees of TWI, it was the way he handled the matter. I have personally seen this man in action at that time and after, and all he did was go downhill from there. I agree those that would not stand with him as the head of an organization he is running should be asked where they stand, and I know of one limb leader that did respond "I stand with God". LCM sent a second letter and said what he said in a harsh way. An appropriate god-like attitude to this should have been done. Also, since Geer was doing what he was doing, it should have been appropriate to ask for the resignation in order for them to join whatever organization he ran separately from TWI. The guy just REACTS and does not think. Yes, ultimately, had this happened to me, I would have let them go first, but only after correspondence and a personal invitation to meet. I probably would have let them come en masse to TWI and let them speak their minds on what bothered them. If any was of my own fault, I would have changed. But I believe a lot at that time was exaggerated against LCM so he should have not reacted in such the way he did. He might have kept a lot of people. There is one person I would have let go from the outset...Geer. I would have called him into my office and asked what his intentions were and why he was badgering the trustees. This POP letter should have been recognized for what it was...a fictitious piece of paper. I think the trustees finally realized that later on AFTER all the damage was done. LCM was NOT the right man for the job. Clearly someone else with a level head, not as much ego, more intelligent and not a Wierwille worshipper should have been the pick. I don't know who that could have been.

Also known for moderating the documentary "The Discovery of Noah's Ark". He'll be missed.

Sometimes I think I would like to hold a congressional seat so that when PETA came to lobby, I could just tell them straight that I had no intention of listening to them, and go ahead...tell my constituents what I just said.

I think it is great that TWI began their own new class. This may or may not be better. Well, it HAS to be better than LCM's class. New research is always welcome. My only turn off: the $100.00. It is time they provided the Word for free or at least let the class be sold on DVD or CD. It would reach more people and frankly, they may make more money. Eagle

rascal, By the time the loyalty letters came around, he must have lied to us at HQ. He said he simply wrote letters requesting if they would stand with him as president of the Way or not, but did not mention "standing with God crap". I believe what you said. The way he handled it was awful. He could have said something like, "I think it is admirable you want to stand with God, but do you feel you can do it with this ministry with my lead? If not, then the Way is not for you. I need people to back me up moving God's Word in this ministry, and if you don't feel comfortable with me, that is fine, just let me know this. You should, however, not expect to be leading in this ministry if you feel this way and should find an appropriate church or ministry that suits your needs and ideas. I wish you all the best success in any endeavor you may choose. Wishing You God's Best, L. Craig Martindale (That is HOW he should have written it, or something like that.) However, he chose to draw a line in the sand like it was a 50-yard line and dare everyone to come into his end of the playing field. Standing with God is not "crap". At this time these letters came out I was solidly behind LCM not knowing any of this. I am so sorry, rascal, for any abuse sent your way. And that goes for anyone else at GS. I almost feel like I was part of it. Eagle

I was going to say what a Wierwillite was, but markomalley summed it up so perfectly I decided to just say, "DITTO". What, BTW, are the Eagles White Dove is speaking about? I took my name from one of my favorite music groups. But I am curious to know what White Dove meant. Is it something of a dove compared to an eagle?

Hi rascal, I was not there until 1980, so the 1970s experience was only viewing videotapes of him, of course, in front of a camera he was at his best. By the 90's even that did not seem to matter. I think I have to give you that one as it seems you know a lot from the 70s and experienced more of him in the early days. One believer did tell me something about LCM after the Athletes of the Spirit showing. VPW had viewed it and the expansion of the devil spirit thing, kind of glorifying the presence of devil spirits, and came into his house to talk to Dotsie, his wife. There were Corps people and some major Twig coordinators from Columbus who had been invited there to the house. Apparently Mrs. Wierwille was making cookies for the group and VPW came in and at least a few overheard the following: "I think I picked the wrong man for the presidency." For those that were there that day, I would sure like to confirm this. It was always taught that VPW went to God to pick him, and then later I heard VPW actually asked the Corps who they wanted and LCM won hands down. Anybody out there know more on this? Eagle

I give equals to two, Chris Geer and LCM. Reason? Geer decided to wreck the ministry with a phony paper in a coup by using VPW's name post mortem. LCM reacted to that by eliminating as many Wierwille worshippers as possible and replacing his memory. To accomplish that, he ran the ministry into the ground. Had he stayed on a few more years, he could have bankrupted the organization. I don't have enough on Rosalie to judge. Eagle

OLdiesman, I have to give you that one. I have viewed tapes of him in the 70's and the 90's. (As well as the 80's), and I have to agree that he was a much better and loving type in the 70's. The POP came in April 1986, almost 20 years ago, and from that moment on, there was an incessant attack on LCM from people all over the ministry that supported Chris Geer. In order to save his presidency from false accusations (I believe a lot of Geer's accusations were made up in POP, IMHO), Martindale then saw his ministry was split and he could not win them over. He sent out the loyalty letters in 1989 and removed those who wouldn't back him. However from that point, he began to set himself up as absolute in power, perhaps to defend himself out of paranoid delusions, I do not know. Then by 1990 and on he was a tyrant perhaps believing anyone who challenged him was trying to remove him from power. In the end, his own abuse of power and sexual harassment got him booted. He left a problem in that he taught too many people to be like him or believe his way or marking and avoiding people, being ruthless against them, and not seeing the love of God anywhere. He certainly did change in the 90's. I was so sorry to see that because I was one of his biggest supporters. After the sexual abuse allegations, no moral support came from me. Eagle

Oldiesman: That was something I would have loved to have seen, your challenge of him in front of others. But I know that had to have been a very rare thing. I saw far too often those who spoke to LCM about matters and the next moment they were off grounds, right or wrong. I addressed my comments to the Wayfers around me at that time, really. Since they were so good at taking messages to Craig...then take this one... I had just gone through a tirade of snitching that entire year for the smallest of infractions, which were not even infractions. The back-biting was horrendous in '92. Most likely, it got worse after that before it got better. I had expected to be thrown out of the Corps, but wasn't, so I later left. Funny thing about this was, I was used to discipline from the Army but I was not used to childish stupidity. However, I believe I was not the only one griping about that. There were probably several others there that said the same thing. This is what I said. But after all that, you know, I was not so upset at Mrs. Owens, nor so upset at LCM, but REALLY upset at my unknown tormenters who ran to report the comments. My feeling is that had there been only me saying that on that day, I would have been confronted and kicked off grounds. I believe that there were several that said it because Craig addressed the incident in the plural. There were too many, I think, to confront and rather than go to Mrs. Owens and tell her she was wrong and it got men angry, he decided instead to "back her up." Craig lost some credibility with a lot of people in that advanced class special in 1992. That same weekend he went back on his word about never replacing Wierwille's classes and he made the announcement that he was re-doing the Advanced Class. Replacing the Advanced Class didn't bother me, but going back on his word did. I then saw the systematic replacement of Wierwille by LCM and I knew, even though he said literally, "the foundational class, PFAL, I WOULD NEVER REPLACE THAT CLASSIC". I knew he would, and he did with the Way of Abundance and Power, you know, where Eve was a lesbian. I didn't care if they relooked at Wierwille's doctrine, just that something about the way he did it was sneaky. He must have been dealing with the old Wierwillites even then and was weaning them off Wierwille. I don't know what to think. But I appreciate knowing that there was a time when Craig did listen to constructive criticism. By the way, Craig's habit was to rail on people in public, so I have no problem with anyone doing that back to him. If he doesn't do it in private, neither should he expect any other treatment or favors. Eagle

That's some insight, Raf. If the truth about Wierwille didn't bother them, but talking about it did, then it means they may have believed his actions were correct and possibly godly according to the Word. Talking about them means we believe they were not godly, which challenges the height they have of the man in their eyes. Interesting way of looking at that... Eagle

Oakspear, I am humbled. That is much braver. You are awarded:

Has anybody here publicly disagreed with any TWI doctrine while they were still in or fought against TWI established protocol? There was a time at the Advanced Class Special in 1992 that the men heading the table, by virtue of either Mrs. Owens or another of the founding women, said that the title to be used was "Hostess", regardless of whether or not one was male or female. I was heading the table at this time and I said to everyone there, "Regardless of what has been told to you, I am a "HOST" and NOT a "HOST-ESS". About three at the table I led agreed with me and we said the blessing for the meal, but then later someone went and told LCM about what I did and I suspect I was not the only one. LCM had to address us all enmasse when he said, "What Mrs. Owens (I believe that was her) says is the rule at the table, and I back her up all the way!" I looked up at LCM in the distance and with everyone pretty much within earshot, said, "I don't care if you back her up all the way and I don't care who she is, I'm not emasculating myself at the table. Go ahead and kick me out, kick me out for what, so you can cross gender the Corps? (I was in the Corps that year.) Who's the f*****g snitch? I want their names..." I received some awful stares and eyes that looked like slits going right through me. No one kicked me out, but I was pretty mad about it. Being that upset I looked around and looked at the people staring at me and said, "What're you all looking at?" One by one they all turned away. This should have had me escorted off grounds but nothing happened. This time I believe no one snitched. Anyone remember the "Hostess" incident in '92? That was a year that I I probably got both Craiggers and Wierwillites angry. Somebody know about this and was it Mrs. Owens if you know? Eagle

Exie, I agree with the other posters. You were not, nor ever was, a jerk. Those that put you down or held you back or possibly used you...were the honest to real jerks. God Bless your wonderful heart and God LOVES you. (Now I am mad at TWI again...but they deserve it. At least the TWI under LCM. Can't tell with the current TWI) Eagle

As a man, I am completely offended by this joke. I do not like chicken wings. Eagle

I don't mind people believing vpw doctrine. I think it is a lot of error, but I don't mind. If I did I would have my mind filled with thousands of churches that would get me upset with what they teach. I hated the shunning. That is much rarer. I only addressed Way doctrine on my site because it did, IMHO, challenge the authenticity of the gospels while at the same time saying they were promoting it. Can't have that. Eagle

Wordwolf, I had no idea of the Wierwille network of abuse and coverup. I had heard of his alleged affairs. I heard of the motorcoach. I had heard about the erroneous "King's property" teaching where all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king. I knew of LCM's alleged affairs, now apparently not "alleged" anymore, the lawsuits being successful. All I knew was that after years of trying to get over TWI the only way I could do it was to research what they had taught and find out if what was taught was in fact truth. No, it was not. Not a lot of it anyway. I can say that opposing the viewpoint of Christians being possessed riles Wierwillites. I can also say that opposing the Seed of the Serpent doctrine get's them really upset. Talking against the Blue Book gets them REALLY upset. I still have to say from feedback (meaning hate mail at my site), that going after anything PFAL makes them really angry. One of my emails, which I still have, was entitled "WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING?" That person that sent me that, a staunch Wierwille believer, has since cut me off. This and a few others is what prompted this thread. Eagle

Then I guess I am to blame for disagreeing with Wierwille. Eagle