Eagle

I would suppose TWI would think those on GS are "swine." On the contrary, it was a battle between grace and legalism, service versus abuse, the Word of God versus twisted scripture, and good guys versus bad guys. As Pawtucket has stated, it is WAY past midnight. You all have gone on with your lives and contributed a valuable service here. We can't tell how many we have rescued from even going there. We live in a battleground. Experience is always the most valuable weapon in the arsenal of life. I have seen Greasespotters and I know I was looking at the good guys. The good guys won. Eagle

When I speak tactfully and politely about my differences on PFAL doctrine, I have to be careful to whom I speaketh to. It seems in most splinter groups, apparently these differences cannot be handled to the point of cutting association with the subject who has these said differences. This goes on in the splinter groups, even small splinter groups. I can imagine the thoughts of those that don't want to talk, even on the weather with me. Things like: "I can't talk to him...he believes Christians can't be born again of the devil...as our new leader has declared unto us...we must avoid this man at all costs, him, and his family, and his children's children. And his children's children's children. And his dog and possessed parakeet. I would try to rescue him, but God says to avoid him, and go seeketh another ex-way believer to cast devils from, that others more worthy of our attention profit the Lord." Whatever. Thanks, G.S. for being there. Eagle

Self-publisher for her or not? Does it matter, really? If it is good enough, the book should sell. I would have to assume her husband would back her up as well. Paddy Heron self published three books, two were best sellers, one in Ireland and one in the United States where Grizzley Adams productions turned it into a documentary called "End Times." Pretty good, too. Heron made it to the top ten at Amazon at least once and the top twenty three times on that book. He has sold thousands of his third book. I've also self-published, but I knew the topics were too controversial for normal Christian publishers. Heron did a fantastic job. We'll see where Ms. Horney goes with this. I'd like to be fair and wish her the best. I just hope she gets to keep her money. Eagle

Zero Corps was in residence the year before the First Corps. Whatever year that was. Around 1970 or so, wasn't it? Eagle

I realize VPW dismissed all the Corps from the First Corps and called it instead "Zero Corps." It may have been posted here before. Were they REALLY all that bad? Or were they the first to fight back against what appeared to be a legalistic and elitist attitude they were not quite expecting? Eagle

Having temporarily been in the Corps during the legalistic years, I understand how they feel. But you are right. I'll refrain from using that term. It also includes the good ones, which it should not. Hopefully, we can come to an agreement to drop that phrase. If not, it is an individual thing, I guess. I also believe that once Corps always Corps...and this title, earned by many, cannot be taken away with the exception of those that committed crimes perhaps. But leaving the ministry should not be a reason. I graduated from Ohio State. I don't work there, but I still have that degree. The Corps may not be the most advanced degree, but many, many of them took their vows on God seriously and made it much more...better than what was taught to them and even going above and beyond. These were the people that should have taken over and VPW should have appointed. No matter. If not welcome at TWI, they are sure welcome outside where even more people can be blessed by their hearts. God knows who they are, and HIS opinion rules. Eagle

I realize the Way Corps has taken a lot of hits here at GS, but there are many Corps that did not put up with the abuse by leadership, defended the people in their area or fellowships, and when it came down to choosing a future leadership position or holding fast to integrity, they chose integrity and stuck by their people and left or were dismissed by the BOT in those difficult years. My first years in TWI were memorable, mostly due to absolutely great Way Corps running classes and fellowships. They had a lot of heart in those early days. I can't let the actions of a few (or scores of them later on due to bad teaching by leadership) stamp out the kindness and great leadership and memories of them years ago. I've found myself driving and sometimes walking on a beautiful autumn day with the brilliant colors of the leaves of the trees comforting my heart and the beauty of it all reminded me of these wonderful Corps of days long gone by. Today was one of those days. Salute to those that gave themselves for the sake of us all in those difficult days. I still remember it and most likely will never forget it. Eagle

Can't believe a single word of POP by Geer. The BOT at that time were just too stupid to eat that up...that gullible...and sign statements such as those to the document. Geer had been to close to VPW and knew him very well and the BOT knew that. Geer completely took advantage of his relationship with VPW and made up this story about Wierwille's last thoughts on TWI leadership. Had that document come from anyone else, the BOT would not have believed it. Afterward, even LCM admitted they were dupedand said they only originally believed it because it came from him. Anyone else, no. Martindale finally concluded it was a piece of fiction and Don Wierwille said it straight out "It was a lie...". I was there when Don said that. It is not unusual to be emotionally attacked, then recover your senses. I disregard the signatures on the POP based on the grip Geer had over them at that time. While I believe the BOT was not doing right...Geer was much worse.

Happy Birthday, Bluzeman! You didn't tell me you had a birthday when I spoke on the phone to you two days ago! God's GREATEST to you! Eagle!

Whiners, hardly. In fact, Greasespot reminds me of a place in the Old West, where, if one more TWIer shouted one more legalism or snotty remark at anyone here, then anyone here would call them out to the street for a showdown. Frankly, judging from years of being here, this is where they fight their war. Better this way than the way some would prefer to fantasize on doing it. I believe the Greasespot Cafe is the perfect element to let those who experienced this emotional holocaust to let off steam. Better that than the obvious alternative of kicking their butts. One just has to notice how everyone here has refrained from going after TWI any other way. Psychological abuse, rape, robbery, and wasted years are things I don't consider "whining" about. The issues are real and deep. This is going to be heard for years to come. Eagle

I thought LCM wanted equal time on this program to be fair and balanced, but was told it was not Fox News Network. Is this true? Eagle

Invisible Dan: Walter Martin is dead? And he used a degree mill for his credentials? Then it was a "ghost" or ghost writer that updated his book....posthumously of a degree mill graduate. Chris Geer is behind this... Eagle

igotout: Feel free to copy it and post where ever you need or send it around. I copyrighted it but I am now giving permission right here on GreaseSpot to post it on any sites, even GS. I have no plans to put it in a book. It was an article where I investigated POP and then let my frustrations out on things that happened to me in TWI. Anyone else can do the same. It is the most popular article on my site, even after five years. Cut and paste this to a Word.doc and print out with my permission to use in its entirety, unedited. Eagle (Stephen J. Spencer)

I answered this on another thread but I'll do it here, too, my opposition to the man who tried to grab the throne and ascend to top man in the back of the Motorcoach. For me, I believe the only throne he should qualify for is at a backwoods rest stop in Ohio where the entrance has an ugly kid playing a banjo. Okay, sorry, I have to do it. I know they are my personal thoughts. But here is the five year old link where I said his POP was bogus: Drawing Swords If this guy really had date rape cocktails, he could use it on the guy that likes his partners to squeal like a pig... P....d off thinking about it. Eagle

There are still Geerites out there? Oh for the love of God, I hate to draw people to my own website, but I have to. I don't care if anyone believes what is written in this article or not. It was written in 1997, updated and posted in June 2001, over five years ago. But here it is: Drawing Swords That guy was responsible for the entire blow-up of the TWI ministry. Don't know whether to thank the Motorcoach guy or curse him. Thought about it. He is cursed. Eagle

I'm a city redneck and Ohio hick, and I am damn proud of it. Fry the child molesters. I understand the law especially when dealing with moral certainty, and I suppose "proof" can be established in a civil court. But civil courts still are not criminal courts and I wonder if we skate the guilt or innocence issue. Those not guilty, and I suppose those that are, will sue. There has to be some way of stopping child molesters other than this...though I agree with the spirit of the law. I sense that it will be challenged by the ACLU and Ohio may lose, though kudos to Ohio for trying to protect children. On a related kind of thing, so politically correct are the Armed Forces today that even if one is ACCUSED (not convicted) of domestic violence, the service will not let you in as a volunteer. My step son was falsely accused of domestic violence when it was his girlfriend that threw a phone at him once for having an old picture in his shoebox of his promdate, a high school momento. He was trying to leave the apartment and neighbors saw her jump on his back trying to bite him and beat on his head. He could have destroyed her (he was a weightlifter and high school wrestler) but did not believe in hitting women back. He had several bruises. He did grab her arms and pull her off him, bruising her arms. Neighbors called the police over the noise, they came, she showed them her arms, and he was arrested for domestic violence. He went to jail for a few days under the charge but when the hearing came up for the trial, his attorney got her to admit she lied about the charge. I believe the attorney had witnesses outside the apartment that said the women jumped him as he was trying to leave and he had a tought time getting her off. She was not arrested for filing a false report. He could not get the domestic violence CHARGE expunged because he had priors (though not related to domestic violence). He tried joining the service...and he was turned down. I wonder how the new law in Ohio will come out? Eagle

You're right Evan! No respect! LOL! That cracked me up so hard reading that post that I nearly fell off my chair! Eagle

Walter Martin's "Kingdom of the Cults" book has been updated and this time, TWI hardly gets a mention. The reason is that the author believes it keeps to itself much and does not do much evangelizing as before, but still labels it a cult. It just isn't worth an entire chapter like it received before. Just a sentence this time. Wierwille and Martindale are not even mentioned in the book. Eagle

"I hate snakes..." Indiana Jones Some of us marvelled when he handled the Black Mamba snake. Especially me. Thirty four years ago in Vietnam I was walking across a sandy divide between a wooded area and our compound. I saw a small green snake heading toward the compound. Finding a large rock, I hurled it at the snake. I missed. To my shock, the snake turned and headed toward me, incredibly fast. I turned and ran as fast as I could, somehow now sensing this snake was dangerous, but how dangerous I did not know. I only threw the rock at it because I hated snakes. I outran the snake and some fifty yards later I turned to see the snake about thirty feet behind me, which had suddenly decided to stop, turn and head some other way other than the compound. It ceased chasing me. Returning to the compound that night, I got to my barracks and told members of my company what had happened. One of the more experienced vets put his cigarette on the floor, stomping on it with his boot. Blowing the last of the smoke out of the side of his mouth, he looked up at me and said, "You're an idiot". Angrily, I shot back, "What the hell do you know about it (the snake). He looked around at the other guys there, then back at me and said, "We call it the One-Step". "What's does "One-Step" mean?" I asked. "It means," he said, "that if he had bitten you, you would walk one step, then drop dead. There is no antidote." That day I went from just hating snakes to actually fearing them. I never challenged a snake again. I guess Steve Irwin would have went back out to hunt it down for the next day's breakfast.

While I have criticized the Corps heavily here, even being one at one time, I wanted to say thanks to those in the Corps who stood out, walking in love, non-legalistic, defending your brethren, reaching out with a kind heart and welcoming us into your home unconditionally, and having great teaching skills keeping us fascinated in God's Word. Kudos to you all that did. A lot of the Corps were GREAT people and Wonderful Believers. Eagle

Waysider and Out There, Thank you very much. I did feel a lot freer...after about six months. I had a feeling of dread for about that long thinking God was really going to abandon me, even though HE really did rescue me. The name "Eagle" comes from one of my favorite bands..."The Eagles". However, having a patriotic side, I really liked the name. Steve Spencer (Eagle)

My Corps tuition was $3600.00 for my first in residence year but that did not include the extra costs, it seems, that others reported here bringing it to $4200.00 or $4300.00 a year. I dropped out of Corps before going in residence after doing the following: 1. Got a spiritual partner who was willing to pay MY ENTIRE TUITION. But, orders came down that if the spiritual partner had left TWI, we had to drop them. This one had. I could not accept full tuition. I had to give the money back. 2. Went to Advanced Class 1992 and a lot of people knew me. I gathered up well over the $3600.00 in pledges in that class once again paying for my first year in residence. AGAIN, LCM announced in the auditorium that no one was allowed to hit up people at the Advanced Class (I was not the only one...there were others and complaints were made). I only hit up people that knew me there in TWI, though. Others hit up just about everybody. LCM said we had to return pledges or money to those and restrict ourselves to raising money in our own geographical area or town. Again, the money went back. 3. The people in my geographical area were already hit up from about a dozen or more, mostly girls, trying to go Corps and by the time I got there, almost all were already tapped out. I got no pledges from any Corps but did raise another $853.00 in actual money I sent in...again...but failed to make my first $1400.00 installment. BTW, TWI kept the $853.00 I had raised and said it could be credited to the next year. They would not return it. 4. My Corps coordinator and area leader accused me of not believing hard enough. I was told as I entered my second year of Apprentice Corps...to go WOW to learn to believe better. I needed $600.00 cash. No, it could not come from the $853.00 because that was promised for Corps residency. 5. My twig coordinator had a business and wanted me working it while they went to the Rock. I was promised $650.00 for two weeks of work while they took a week to prepare and another week at the ROA. I also had assigned duties and had to drive back and forth from Columbus, Ohio to New Knoxville after working for him every night of the ROA. I did WOW burgers and cleaning. I then went home after midnight every night. I also signed up for WOW at the Rock as I promised. 6. When it came time to get paid and get the money in (second wave WOWs I remember...we had until October 1 to pay)...I went to get my pay and was given only $150.00. I never saw the rest or the $500.00. 7. The word went out my "believing" was bad and possibly due to devil spirits. I was shunned by local believers. 8. I made a decision to finally take control of my life and challenged my area coordinator that I was not going Corps or WOW after all and was going to get a job not run by anyone in TWI and I was now refusing to tithe, since my tithe was not working as expected. (I tithed up to 15% of my pitiful low income). I asked for the $853.00 to be returned to me so I could return it to the givers. I was refused. I then requested that they return it themselves then to the individuals who did give, all standing believers. That request was turned down. None of my spiritual partners got anything back. Most forgave my debt. The ones that didn't I had to pay back. I had been told in the past they did return money to spiritual partners so at this time I was at a loss. 9. I got hate mail from local believers and Corps in the area. No joke. Accusations of devil possession. Turning my back on God. Stay away from their fellowships and families, this kind of thing. I ignored the mail. 10. I began to get phone calls telling me I was off the Word from these same people who were marking and avoiding me. This was their way of M&A I suppose. I got to the point I could not take it anymore. One Corps guy called and kept telling me how off the Word I was and abandoned by God because I wasn't doing what leadership told me to do and disobeyed LCM. I finally said that if he didn't stop calling I would meet him at his own house. He hung up on me. That was stupid I know. I should have just called the police. I was avoided since. It was a blessing considering my situation. 11. My life took off immediately after TWI. I have done better since. MUCH better. 12. The only greasespot I saw was changing my oil on a new car I bought. Eagle

DNA came back on this guy...it isn't a match. Eagle

White Dove speaks the truth. Some churches teach too many "social" sermons. They can bore you out of your mind. Eagle

Splinter groups can be almost as legalistic as TWI depending on the group. I always thought Geerite groups clung too much to Wierwille doctrine as if he had been a god or something. To disagree put you out in the cold. They were friendly as long as you agreed with them. One slight deviation and no one hung around you. CFF was a little more tolerant and does follow Wierwille. I can't for sure say they worship Wierwille because I have seen some additional research there past Wierwille, such as further teaching of the Mystery. They disagree with Wierwille there. That is one example. Shroyer is good, but some fellowships that follow CFF seem to get out of control when they are trying to impress either Shroyer, Clapp, or a top clergyman. We had an experience where a local fellowship some years back was rollercoastered by other fellowships. Literally. I doubt Shroyer learned of it. We didn't "turn them in" like someone from TWI would do but decided to just tell them not to do it again. The fellowship finally broke away from CFF because they didn't stop. The leader did not blame Shroyer or Clapp, just thought it was time to hang it up and be independent. I know STF or CES like Bullinger quite a bit, as do I, but not completely. I haven't read enough CES material to know if they are one hundred percent with Bullinger on everything or not. I know I am not. I don't know anything about Vince Finnegan or other splinter groups. My wife and I broke completely and just went to church. Church is tough in that finding one suiting you takes time. There is a little legalism in most churches, some "over-adoration" of the pastors there, snooty people who think that because they have postions of authority or celebrity status in the organization honestly do treat others like bugs to be swatted away. There are great churches out there though and the posts I just read testify to it. And I can't blame anyone after experiencing TWI that don't attend church or fellowship. I just hope wounds heal. Some of them are VERY deep. God Bless, Eagle