Eagle

When I first was introduced to TWI, I could date anyone, though at that time I knew no one woman personally in the Corps that wasn't already married. I had no trouble getting dates. When I got to the Advanced Class level in '86, I could still date whomever I wanted but began to suspect that single Corps women were not available, at least to me. I also began to see the teaching that TWI believers only marry TWI believers. When I went into the Corps, I was flat told only to date other Corps women in my apprentice year or in residence, but I couldn't marry while in the Corps program. I did see how this was not working out...for the women. As time progressed, it seemed there were many more women than men in the Corps program. The math wasn't adding up. It was fine for me to date any in the program, but found out later that it was discouraged for me to date a single woman Corps grad, making those women having men even less available. When I left the Corps program, I was chastised, marked and avoided, and I could date no one in TWI. So I dated ex-believers. To my discouragement, many of the ex-believer women required I belong to their off-shoot. I decided to just enter society again and married my current wife Debbie in February 2000. Granted, Debbie, who was looking for a home church, an myself decided to get with Christian Family Fellowship. They had no rules on who to marry so long as she was a Christian woman, per the Bible. John Shroyer and Jeff Rath married us. Later, my beliefs did not line completely up with the old Wierwille teachings and we parted ways amicably. We have joined a mainline Christian Church, and yes, occasionally cringe at teachings they give, but have decided that no one ministry has all the truth. We simply go by the foundational belief that Jesus is the Son of God, Lord and Savior, died for our sins, and was raised from the dead. Not too many from the old Way will fellowship with us anymore. We have moved on, and know all these differences will be ironed out by God in the end, and really hold no ill will. There is no point to that. We sure would like to fellowship with them again, the same as when I was first introduced into the Way, before it became so legalistic. Eagle

Hello Skyrider, Thanks for the update. What I wanted to happen apparently has not. It's funny, rather than have GSC reports, they are better served and would make so much more money, if they were just simply...nice. More people would be attracted to the ministry, and more would stay, and some would return. It's a shame. Eagle

That was a terrible experience at the hand of Martindale. So many years of faithful experience. Taken so lightly. It was not fair, right, proper, or civilized. Eagle

Hi skyrider, Does anyone know if this surveillance is still going on since Martindale was removed? I remember that they had begun visiting homes checking pay stubs to see if followers were tithing, or giving enough. I would have preferred to think that they had begun to improve, and by improving I mean, just let go of the bitterness against those that left and have no more "mark and avoid" policy. In fact, although I am staunchly against much of what they teach now, I have no more ill will. It would be nice to know that the same applies with them. It would be nice to go on grounds again after so many years absent (just about twenty years) and shake their hands again in friendship, speak of those things we agree, or hold friendly discussions or debate on issues of biblical concern. If not, I'd like to think I could shake hands again, buy many of them a pizza, or beer, and relax for a weekend before heading home. Does anyone know if they have changed? Eagle

Very good response.

The night of the September 11th, 2001 attacks, I had posted an article on the now off-the-web Christian site called Christian Heritage Online. Another organization holds that site now, but at that time the article that was poasted was called "An Act of War" and discussed in the article was the probability that we had lost our hedge of protection as a nation and the need for repentance. The way our nation had been on track, even then, did call for repentence as a nation so that we could have victory over the enemy through God Himself. At that time, I am not sure that I was posting on Greasespot or Ex-Way. I know that many of you here were around to see it. The Isaiah 9:10 documentary goes into specific detail about America needing to turn away from what it does, namely shutting out God in public and private institutions and much, much, more. It is recommended that everyone buy it. It isn't expensive. I'll tried attaching my old article on this forum for you to read, but can't. I'll post it below: AnAct of War - September 11, 2001 Today, Tuesday, September 11, 2001, our nation watched in disbelief as fourAmerican airliners were hijacked, two of them slamming into the Two Twin WorldTrade Towers in Lower Manhattan in New York, a third into the Pentagon buildingin Washington D.C., and a fourth into a rural area in Pennsylvania. The numberof dead is estimated to be in the thousands and will surpass the number killedin the attack on Pearl Harbor by the Japanese on December 7, 1941. The Japanese attacked with a Japanese military force against an Americanmilitary base. In those days, that was how wars were generallyfought...military against military sparing civilians. Today's attack was theopposite. The attackers left no name or insignia, used civilian aircraft withcivilian passengers, and flew the plane into two of the largest civilianbuildings in the nation. The only one that came close to a military hit was thePentagon, but this building is also filled with civilian workers. The Pentagon isnot a military base filled with soldiers who can strike back. It seems today'sattackers in this event did not have the honor of other soldiers around theworld, nor would they face them in battle. It seems they would prefer unarmedcivilians who cannot fight back. Today's attack on U.S. soil will result in retribution against those whoplanned the attack. It is a shame that it happened on this day. It was chosenbecause of the anniversary of the Arab-Israeli peace accord some years back.The date of that anniversary was September 11th. Today's date is alsosignificant to some Christians who believe that this date was the true date ofthe birth of Christ, especially as propounded by Ernest Martin, Ph.D. The dategiven by him and accepted by many around the world was September 11, 3 B.C.What a tragedy to have this happen on this day of all days. Should we take some lessons from the ancient Israel of the Bible. Perhapsour borders should be restricted after a given amount of time. Perhaps weshould follow through on wars we enter instead of half-finishing them. But mostof all, perhaps we should all repent for the sins of America and return to God,as many Christians have suggested. True, this was not American's fault. But dowe really have God's ultimate protection as a nation that has in fact, prettymuch turned from God? Today, with one diseased plague after another and one warafter another, and an encroaching federal government, and a nation which bansGod in schools and seems to be ashamed of Jesus Christ, maybe, just maybe, weshould look at ourselves and how we think and behave. This may or may not haveprevented this tragedy, but it couldn't have hurt to try. As a child, it seemed to me war would never make it to American soil. But Ialso never foresaw the day where God would be unwelcome in our publicinstitutions and we would be promoting evil in our system of government. Inever would believe that Jesus Christ would be seen as an enemy in this countryby so many people and institutions. Of course, reactionary knee-jerk responses would make us worse as a peopleand harder to unite. Arab-Americans, such as Lebanese, Saudi's, Jordanians,Iranians, Pakistani's, and even Iraqi's are in this nation for a reason - to befree Americans. They want to worship and pursue a living in peace. They shouldnot be harassed or punished for this act for which they knew nothing about orhad anything to do with Many are speaking that this is a sign of the end times. Perhaps they areright. But we will never know until the real big event happens - the return ofour Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But until that time, we need to unite as apeople and ask God to help us. Damn the politics and damn the ACLU. We needGod. And we will stand together and fight this horrible thing that has comeupon us. We will pray for the victims of this horrible tragedy. We will prayfor their families and loved ones. We will pray that no one unjustly strikesout against innocent Arab-Americans. But above all, we shall pray for God'sguidance and wisdom. And with prayer comes miracles. And with God comes victory. Copyright Sept 2001 Christian Heritage Online Eagle

Sometimes I wonder about the days we are in, whether this is in fact the End Times. I do believe this is true. My most important personal goal now, to me anyway, is to learn to forgive anyone who was unjust or offensive to me in the past. I can't say I remember to whom I may have been the same and to how many. I feel I really need to put the anger against TWI into my past and move on. For some that were truly and greatly injured, this will be a tougher job. As for me, I need to place the bitterness aside, so much in fact that, in order for me to work this, I may never speak of the offense again. I had decided that if I do an update or new edition to my book, that I would in fact remove hard phrases against TWI and Wierwille or anyone else. Not because I am pleasing anyone else, but because the book carries on the bitterness I had in my heart. In the future, should I do this, I may still remember what offenses had been done to me even if I try to forget. But at least I would look on them without bitterness or hatred, and instead remember that we were once young and passionate, and emotions ruled the younger more than the old. Instead, I would prefer to remember the good times I had with the organization, and the profitable that came out. But I cannot allow the bitterness to follow me to the grave or worse, to Christ's return. My hope is that I live righteously by treating others the same way. Perhaps this is what was meant when it was written, "...in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us." Eagle

Well, I'm not sure how to fake SIT, but the interpretation, it was SUPPOSED to be the first thing that came to our minds following SIT. I am sure it was easily faked by some. There were so many interpretations that began with "Know ye that I love thee (or you)..." and so on. God was interpreting in King James English. Yes, many unintentionally faked it without knowing it based on peer influence or pressure. No doubt. I wonder, though, how many delivered the real article?

The above says I have known the leadership of STF, and I have to a limited degree. Very limited to be honest. I realize problems arise in marriages and this is a failure that must be recognized. But I also realize that I have had problems in my marriage as well, though we have stayed together out of love for each other. But there is one that I particularly fully trust at STF and that is John Schoenheit. This man is Word-driven. I don't know of rumors about the STF staff including John, but I would tend to have a hard time believing any negative feedback on him whatsoever. I have had personal contact with him back in the 1980s, shortly after he was fired from the Way International Research Staff (a theological Medal of Honor is due here). John merely wrote a correctional paper on sexual misonduct not naming anyone and was fired. I don't care for TWIs trivial reasons to fire him. Frankly, had TWI had spiritual leaders, they would have accepted the teaching from that paper and turned away from what they were doing. Further, they should have promoted him. It seems fitting that he would ultimately become the STF president as STF becomes more successful and TWI continues decline. As was biblically mentioned, "The first shall become last and the last become first". If TWI had continued on a path of success, I would have stayed on for the ride. I'm currently in my dissertation period for my doctorate in higher education administration, and frankly, would have loved trying to get the Way College of Emporia up to speed for regional accreditation and building a financially sound supportive infrastructure. But that won't happen. They sold it and the Rome City location. Had the TWI leaders listened to what John had to say, he would still be there and so would many of us. But the humility was completely void at the Trustee level in those days. What a shame. Even today, I listen to John's teaching and show my wife and two adult children his teachings. As you can see, I highly admire the man and wish the absolute best of he and his wonderful family. God Bless All, Eagle (Steve)

Thanks, Socks. It means a lot to hear from someone. How could the program I discussed with my best man at my wedding be administered? Probably by having Congress and the President focus on it once and for all and not move to any other issue until the border issue is resolved. Doubt that would happen. But I don't want our legal immigrants hurt if they have illegal immigrants in the country and we deport them. We must make some kind of effort to say to other countries: "We are absolutely shutting our borders down. What is the most humane way of doing this?" Frankly, the input most needed and required would be from the Hispanic community and Hispanic community leaders, who would be most concerned about their immediate families. (We can't do extended families, such as cousins to cousins, etc., because then there would be no end.) I'm not sure how many think this is a plausible solution, but I see the borders closing in the next ten years, or at least strictly under control. Hope this helps. Eagle

Well, that video was...bizarre. Speaking of immigration, I do believe in tight airport security though the TSA has gone overboard. Why not take our most recent legal or even undocumented immigrants, do a security check at home and from their country of origin, and allow all to stay and also allow their most immediate relatives as well, before cutting off the borders? It looks as if the borders will some day be closed and I prefer that the recent immigrants have access to their families before this happens. Just an opinion. I have spoken to Hispanic friends of mine, specifically one who was the best man at my wedding, and we agree on sensible and compassionate policy before someone puts the fences up, should that ever happen. I'm not sure if I'll get a response because since writing my book opposing some of Wierwille's doctrine, I have been passed over, even here. But God Bless anyway. I hope all is well. Eagle (Steve)

This does bring back memories. I enjoyed hearing his voice again. I didn't agree with all he taught but I felt he did well in turning on many to Christ. I'd like to remember him this way. Eagle

Paddy (Patrick) Heron has done quite well with his books and DVDs he has written and produced. Does anyone know how he is doing? Eagle

I had an old article, not a recent one, about my experiences in TWI, much of which we would now think is kind of funny. It had been posted on Christian Heritage Online and was called "Drawing Swords". I could donate that article. BTW, how's Raf doing? I've been gone quite a while and the last I heard he was up for a Pulitzer. Did he win that? I haven't kept track of it and I'm sorry about that. My wife and I at that time were rooting for him to be chosen. Glad to be back at the Cafe. Eagle

It's pretty much time to hang it up on most offshoots of TWI in my opinion. Unless you believe almost exactly to the doctrine they proscribe at any given time, they will in fact stop communicating with you. (To be fair, I have not had this experience with Spirit and Truth Fellowship, so even though I am not a part of that ministry, they have been pretty friendly about it.) But without naming the rest, I pretty much have given up. I have even donated significant amounts of money to some of these ministries and have sent emails to certain people involved that didn't discuss doctrine but just asked how things were going on and mild communication such as that. No response. It is true that my beliefs are pretty much the opposite of much of what these ministries teach, but I hold no ill will toward them for having polar views. But dead silence is an indication, especially after several months or years, of an obvious wall of separation built between myself and these ministry leaders and other members of their group. I have tried my best to be friendly with them, I am a believer in Jesus Christ, just have certain doctrinal differences and that is it. I do believe that my opposition to certain Wierwille teachings had much to do with this. My belief is that God Himself would not have us fighting over trivial matters. We can agree to disagree on certain doctrinal issues and go it at that. Frankly I have found more tolerance and compassion from athiests than I have from these ministries. I cannot be the only one who has experienced this. Eagle

That pretty much sums it up.

Perhaps you are right. But in the frame of mind I was in, I sort of wanted to come out swinging. If I have one of them lecture me again, I won't hit them, but they will certainly wish they never crossed my path after they get an earful.

Yes, well almost. It didn't come to blows. But it did get so bad I had to threaten two individuals with coming to their residence and calling them out just to keep off of my back about leaving TWI. It got around and I was marked and avoided, which gave me a great sense of relief to be avoided. If you just wanted peace, then mark and avoid worked in your favor. I saw another individual lose his temper with a TWI follower for "departing from the Word". I could almost sense by the look in his eyes, he could no longer take it. The one from TWI backed off and left. I'm not sure what has happened to him since. Today, I feel terrible about threatening violence against those that harassed me. It wasn't exactly the best in Christian character. Perhaps the best solution was to move away where I couldn't be found and unlist my phone number. Eagle

Christian mafia? I don't think that if they came my way I would move over for any of them. I've already closely tussled with two of them several years ago. These people would not let me leave TWI in peace. I am not kidding about this. I'm very sure others went through very much the same as I did. Eagle

If I remember correctly, the Advanced Class exam was filled with several trick questions, which took people that knew the answers to give what they perceived to be incorrect answers. An example was "How many were crucfied with Christ? Normally as TWI members, the answer was four instead of the traditional two, but they said "two" because Wierwille research said two were crucified along with him at first and two added later. The whole idea of the question should have been the general answer to the entire issue - four. Incidently, I know and believe that theory to be incorrect anyway. Regardless of scores, most were accepted, I believe, for monetary reasons to pay for the colleges they had at that time. That is my belief. Eagle

I've been trying to contact Doug McMullan. Anyone know how I can do that?

I guess personally challenging leadership. My refusal to attend the fellowship/twig they apportioned to me. I did not get along with the coordinator, so it was best to let me cool off in another fellowship. Also, because of living in dire poverty then, I refused to tithe anymore because tithing did not improve my life, even after five years of doing it. That sealed it, I think. Well, and calling out a guy in the Corps and telling him to come out of his apartment to face me. I was a peaceful guy before all this. I'm not joking. Honest to God I was. Kind of wimpy in my approach to Way leadership. One day it exploded. I feel bad about it now. I was avoided like the plague, dirty looks and all.

Bill Belichick should be fined for walking off the game, even with one second left. He acted like a little kid and hardly was the sportsman in losing. Great coach, but poor behavior. He just left everybody, including his players, alone on the field. Pretty sad. Pretty bad.

Giants just beat the Patriots 17-14 with less than a minute left in the came. Manning just plain beat Brady on the field. It was a battle of quarterbacks. To me, this sucks. I am from New England. Giants fans will gloat I suppose. I also owe money to some Giants fans here in Ohio. That sucks. I had to pay them all tonight at a friend's Super Bowl party. Not much, about $70.00. Did I say that it sucks? At least for New England fans...