George Aar

I kinda wonder if you do. I know as a buhleever sorta guy it seemed the normal response to any view contrary to the orthodoxy was to simply dismiss it out of hand. "Well, he's an unbeliever, so naturally he doesn't understand the greatness of blah, blah, blah..." Without ever really condsidering that view at all. Of course just considering a view not based on some Bible verse is viewed rather dimly in Buhleeverville as well, no matter the brand. And I would still maintain that actions such as seen in the video are indeed a natural progression from accepting a dogma at face value, without subjecting it to any sort of proof. You simply can't get to that kind of whacked-out behavior without first making a habit of rejecting skepticism if favor of being "faithful"...

This is the natural progression of things when one abandons reason and embraces "faith" and it's related dogma. Not a pretty sight...

And, no, it's not that I "don't like" the contents of The Bible, I just don't hold it as any sort of divine source of information. (I actually do like Ecclesiastes, Job, and Song of Solomon, but how often do you really need to reread the SAME book? But I digress...) I also don't give much credence to The Koran, The Bhagavagita, or the Wisdom of Buddha, so I'm sorta egalitarian in that regard... Here's another idea though. Suppose that some sharpwitted MOG wannabee back a few thousand years ago figured out he could get more dedicated converts to his church by making some mundane - but little understood - human response into a spiritual exercise? Maybe claim that tapping the knee with a small rubber hammer proves that Almighty God has chosen you (IF you have an involuntary twitch in your leg as a result!) You could have a special prayer, have the congregation get quiet and put on their holiest faces, and then have a "Kicking in the SPIRIT" session! I'm sure there's lots of normal, albeit not well-understood (especially by unschooled, Iron-age people) physical responses that could have been co-opted in such a manner. Exploiting various and sundry involuntary nerve responses, or maybe even more mundane sorta things. Maybe feed the whole congregation a high-fibre meal and have a farting-in-the-spirit marathon? But, again I digress... (RR, Visions of purgatory are keeping me up at night, -shudder-)

O.K., that does it! I'm taking away your secret decoder ring, the Mector bylaws, AND your membership card. Man, you can't keep a secret fer chit!

Uh oh, now Nelson's Bible Dictionary is given by inspiration of God too? Sorry Mark, I don't find any more credibility in an "appeal to authority" line of reasoning either. A phenomenon at least similar to what we know as SIT has been practiced by lots of folks in disparate cultures throughout history - and pre-dating the Biblical accounts by many centuries as well. Greek Oracles were said to do it, Western hemisphere aboriginal tribes did it, as well as those with occult leanings. Hell, I've seen Sid Ceasar and some other JEWISH comedians do something very similar in their comedy routines (maybe they were secretly "born again"? - only their rabbi knows fer sure). And for all of that, just what is it that tongues really DO? In WayWorld we thought that God was getting ego-strokes with it, I guess. And we were fattening up our inner man (it DOES seem to have worked rather effectively at fattening up our OUTER man - well, for me anyway). And it was supposedly evidence that we were born again and heaven-bound. But if anybody can do it, is any of that really true?

I'm not trying to speak for Waysider, but I would contend that we have no way of knowing what we're doing when we "speak in tongues". I would be more apt to think that we're simply making noises that sorta sound like a language. At least, that's what those who've researched it (with probably a little more dispassionate eye than the believer/participants bring to bear) have come up with. Personally I know that when I first "spoke in tongues", privately, at home after reading the first 5 chapters of RTHST, I was amazed at my "God-given" ability. But after giving it a little more thought, without the emotional charge or WayWorld viewpoint, I think it's highly likely that there's a much more mundane explanation without having to invoke any supernatural causality. The sparse bit of scripture devoted to the practice is vague to the point of being meaningless. And what we think we "know" about it - I think - has much more to do with conjecture and wishful thinking than any sort of recorded doctrine. Just think of all the stuff our brains can do without much conscious input. Like typing fer instance. Do you have to spend any time thinking about what letters you're going to press? Or does your brain simply take over that part for you? I know when I was an estimator for a construction company, I got to the point where I would simply know what the product of two 2 or 3 digit numbers was almost instantaneously, with no real conscious effort put into it. Would it really be all that difficult for our brains to conjure up some homecooked "language" on the spot? I wouldn't think so. So in the final analysis, I think it's far more likely that SIT is simply a parlor trick that was used to convince us of the veracity of WayWorld dogma. And it worked surprisingly well in that respect...

Oh, and if I may, I think your "black and white" slip is showing...

http://www.skepdic.com/falsedilemma.html

Fortunately we have that actual, historic moment recorded on video tape, unearthed in a recent archaelogical dig: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1loyjm4SOa0

"Play it, Sam. Play 'As Time Goes By.' " Casablanca How about "Badges? We don' need no stinkin' BADGES!"

Funny how just about any "miraculous" spiritual events can be quite logically explained without invoking the supernatural. But if one is predisposed to believe or is carefully coached to accept as legitimate, well, then it's GAWD at work. Yeah, Almighty GAWD wants to prove His existence or proclaim his wonderful works or whatever, so He accomplished that by giving you the ability to speak in a language that basically nobody understands. I guess that makes about as much sense as any other religious tenets. But what's more likely? Let us worship for a moment at the feet of William of Ockham and his notorious razor. Does it seem more likely that an invisible, omniscient, omnipotent being is providing you with meaningless gibberish to speak so as to get His ego stroked, or... that you're just making it up? People HAVE study the phenomenon at some length, and have concluded that it is NOT language, no matter how bad we want it to be. And yes, I have a link too: http://www.skepdic.com/glossol.html

I have no clue what became of my marked-up KJV. But, awhile back, I was trying to look up a Bible verse for some reason or other and realized that I don't even HAVE a Bible in the house anymore. And no, I haven't missed it at all...

When I first heard this in the '70s I'd have never dreamed it would be the theme of my life. Who knew?

I wonder how long before Faux News just abandons any inkling of journalistic responsibility and just starts making stories up out of whole cloth? I think they're getting close now...

I'll be damned, an internet Kool-Aid stand...

None of the events of WayWorld were ever dear to me. They were always just obligations. The classes - something I had to do to be a good Christian, the fellowships, likewise. The "Rock" - well it was nice to see people you hadn't seen in awhile, but, after a day or so, did you really want to hang around anymore? I sure didn't. Going "W.O.W.", again, something I thought was necessary so I could really finally become that person that was advertized in "The Class". It never happened. When you look back and realize that the focus of your life for 15 years or so was horribly misguided, how do you put a happy face on that and glean all those "good times"? I don't think you can and still mantain any sort of intellectual honesty. Do you have warm and fuzzy thoughts about the time you sold Amway for a few months? Or when you lost a load of cash on the slots in Vegas? Or even when you lost a little dough trying to win that big stuffed animal at the carnival? No? Why not? And that's what irritates some of us around here when others try to mitigate their wasted time in the cult with all those warm and fuzzy stories. If you try to tell us that WayWorld was really something - at least parttime - wonderful, then you negate OUR experience. Either it was an abusive, destructive, con or it wasn't. The fact that some of us didn't notice, or didn't mind, - or even enjoyed - the abuse does nothing to mollify the real "heart" of the cult...

You probably thought you were being cagey, but I've got "English/American" translation software downloaded to my desktop, so I was able to crack your cunningly devised code...

I'm a little dubious about the supposed questions asked of the pastor's family as well. As anal as some small communities can get (and we've got a few around here that fine you for parking a pickup on the street for more than 45 minutes), I'm a little reluctant to believe that the county council gives a damn if they say "Praise the Lord" during their service. I'd be a lot more likely to believe that the whole issue revolves around noise and traffic problems more than anything else. And, like Mstar already pointed out, they're running a business out of their home (yes, Virginia, religion is a business, they just don't have to produce a product), why shouldn't they have a license?

Yeah, the words are on his headstone. Sociopaths like him have no sense of guilt, so I don't think there were any nagging regrets he had to honestly make such a statement. Rather, I think it was just phoney humility used to "prove" his magnanimity. A conman to the very end, it was just more embrodiery for his fictitious resume'...

I come from a little different space than some here, I guess. I certainly DO think that WayWorld was a cult. I find it remarkable that anyone could see it differently once released from it's confines, but, then, that's what makes for discussions I guess. I also think that "faith" and suchlike is often a cover for simply not wanting to really question notions that one has grown comfortable with. What person, starting from a really "clean slate" would adopt Christianity - or any religion for that matter - if they were fully mature adults before being exposed to the basic tenets of that belief? I would bet not many. When viewed from an uninvolved, dispassionate place, religious tenets take on a really icky, superstitious, ignorant, and often brutal tone. And when you consider the origin of religions (as in, icky, superstitious, ignorant, and brutal early times of man's civilization), it's not at all remarkable the sort of stuff that's been incorporated into the various "faiths". Stuff like human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, blood offerings, genital mutilation, slavery, and cannibalism are all well represented, even in Christianity. Why is it a wonderful practice that should be observed if it's mentioned in The Bible, , but only foolishness if it's not immortalized in some holy writ? Is "Take, eat" really that much more credible than "Step on a crack, break your mother's back"? I don't see it... It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -- Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

I've got no problem thinking that Michelangelo liked the looks of men better than women, and so painted what he liked. I think that would be an easy case to make. I've also got no problem imagining the devil to be female. I mean, geeze, that's a given, isn't it?

Uh, wasn't it Michelangelo? Oooo, Eve really does have "Manhands" doesn't she?

It is STILL a source of constant amusement to me that a river could actually catch fire. Years hence, and I still laugh myself to tears at the thought of it. And, yes, I DO have a rather twisted sense of humor, TYVM. "What's wrong with Detroit anyway?" You really aren't from around here, are you?

Yeah, wouldn't we all love for the sandbag fillers to be obsessing over making their sandbags the "BEST", meanwhile the water is cresting over the levee. Obviously there's a time and place for most any kind of work. In WayWorld though, thought was NEVER encouraged. Blind obeisance was the order of the day. And snappy oneliners and pithy platitudes. Reason and common sense were generally verbotten...

I've found a sorta online lecture series on youtube. It's Dick Hyman explaining Art Tatum's piano technique. Being a die-hard Tatum fan, I've found these little blurbs to be fascinating. Here's the intro: