George Aar

Roy, "what do you feel deep inside?" Not that it's any of your business, but I feel that religion is a ridiculous waste of time. It sucks up horrendous amounts of people's efforts, money, and life and gives nothing in return but false comfort and divisive beliefs. In the end I think it quite likely that blind adherance to mindless religious tenets will be the end of us all. (well, you asked)...

hiar, I think I can make room for you, it IS a rather large cabin IIRC (I'll be out flyfishing anyway. Leave a light on for me, though, O.K.?). The family commons (which I actually helped build) was - and probably still is - a joke. The roof design was such that, during winter months when "ice damming" becomes a problem, that ice would build up on an upper roof, then break loose and come crashing down on a lower roof and the decks and railings. I don't know what, if anything has ever been done to remedy the situation. Maybe they just continue to rebuild it every spring. But the real problem with the building, IMHO, is just the ridiculous waste of space. A huge portion of the building is devoted to the tower at the main entrance. There are no floors in the tower, no good way to utilize the space for anything, it's simply a dramatic entrance to a building that's too small for such architectural feature. It's pretty, I'll give you that. Hell, with the dozens of skilled carpenters who spent YEARS in its construction, it had damned well be something to look at. Just a shame the basic design was so flawed.

I've got "dibs" on Cabin #6! We can burn the damn "family commons" down though, IMHO. What an abortion. That'd be a great bonfire, no?

Ex10, No offense taken at all. (Don't tell anybody, but I'm not nearly the crank I pretend to be some of the time) I think any normal person is going to have regrets once they realize what a waste of life their tenure in WayWorld was. The trick is not to let it taint the rest of your life. It may be small comfort, but for me, seeing how incredibly privileged the boomer generation in the U.S. is, has helped me put my "wasted youth" in a little better perspective. I mean, has any generation, in any country, at any point in history, had as much available to them as American Boomers? I don't think so. We've been incredibly coddled and catered to since we've first drawn breath. The final "kicker" for me was when I was in Cambodia a few months back. The OVERWHELMING physical need of virtually everyone in the country made quite an impression on me. Here's a people who spend their entire existence living like their ancestors did 5,000 years ago. They grow rice in their back yard, fish in their front yard, eat what they procure each day, and do it again tomorrow. They never see a doctor, never go to "town", never hear a radio or see a television. Seldom (or never?) go to school. Certainly can never attend a university. They live in a grass hut with no windows, floor, door, hell some of them don't even have all four walls! These are people who have it tough. We have no complaint. One of the last people I saw in Phnom Penh was a land mine victim, begging at the market. He had no right arm or right leg and when I approached him he pulled the towel from his head (a "schtick" I'm sure he employs regularly) to reveal the fact that he was also missing half of his face (with his right eye dangling down on what should have been his cheek). It appeared as though he'd never had any medical attention for his wounds at all. I was absolutely stunned at his overwhelming poor lot in life, and I vowed right then and there to NEVER AGAIN feel sorry for myself for any pathetic little problem I may have. Yeah, I know it's corny, but how the hell can my misadventure with the Ohio Cornfield Cult begin to compare to those that have REALLY suffered a bad turn of events? So, my advice to your better half? Perk up! Nobody gets outa here alive anyway. Might as well make the most of what we've got left. O.K., it's not eloquent, but whaddaya want fer nuthin'?

It's been almost thirty years, but I'm still ....ed that I got rid of: a collection of "Jazz Crusaders" albums several "Leadbelly" albums (a "Folkways" collection) several "Wilson Pickett" albums several assorted and sundry jazz albums including: Jean-luc Ponty, Stephan Grepelli, Zoot Sims, Ray Brown, Horace Silver, Mose Allison, Dexter Gordon, Ray Charles, The Inkspots, Brian Auger and the Oblivion Express (yeah, they were soooo devilish), Laura Nyro, and on and on... gawddam I threw away some great stuff! I've managed to replace some of it, but a lot of it was pretty hard to locate to begin with. Could it have been ANY dumber? Sheesh, what a loon I was...

I never debate with Mikey anymore. I also never try to give singing lessons to pigs...

I usually ask them when the last time was that I came up on their porch and tried to convert them to agnosticism. That usually gets a rather quizical look. And then I point out how utterly rude and condescending the act of "door-to-door" witnessing is. And which point I conclude the conversation and go back to what I was doing. Funny, I don't get a lot of repeat customers.

Hooner, Fer starters I'd suggest you forget about being "thankful" for anything WayWorld did. If you received any benefit from the outfit (possible, I guess) you paid for it dearly. That's how the organization is devised. You pay to play. I've found that, in retrospect, anything worthwhile I learned at TWI was pretty bland, tepid, unexciting information that I could have learned elsewhere quite easily at not near the cost in finances or mental health. The really tittilating, "block-buster", over-the-top type of information that is/was taught at WayWorld is primarily B.S. and should be discounted immediately. Despite their rhetoric, TWI is not a bastion of scholarly, intellectual dedication and research. They were/are primarily a bunch of self-deluded scam artists, trying desperately to convince the unwary of their unique and unbreakable tie to the Almighty. They're lying...

Oh Ted, it appears I owe you an apology AGAIN. Yes, we have profoundly different tastes in music - no surprise there. I think what irritated me the most about WayWorld music was that it was so content-loaded, almost more propoganda than music. It seemed to me that whoever was writing or performing the songs was so hemmed-in by doctrinal constraints that there was little (if any) room for them to really do something. They simply ended up, consciously or otherwise, following the dictates of Herr Doktor, and obeying the overriding tenet SELL "THE CLASS". There's probably a lot of the music produced by in TWI that a majority of folks would consider "good". It's just that the association with THE MINISTRY has forever tainted it in my mind. I was always conflicted about my involvement with TWI, and now that I've finally managed to break free from it's mental entanglements, it's rather difficult to look back at any of it's culture without a strong sense of loathing. Great story about the gal contemplating suicide. I can't say as I've ever produced anything in my life that I could point to and say "this REALLY helped somebody". I once was brought almost to tears, though, listening to Art Tatum playing "Over the Rainbow". That's about as "spiritual" as I get anymore. Socks, great mind picture, that (I still don't quite understand Charlie Parker though, but Chet Baker is a favorite).

The thing I find rather ironic in this is that, like so much of religion, the REAL impetus, the thing that really makes it work, is self- interest. For all the talk of loving your neighbor, turning the other cheek, and giving of your abundance, it seems the real motivating factor is the prize you'll get if you remain faithful to the tenets of your faith. Sure, one has to put up with the jerks at your church and tithe (or give a few bucks anyway), but look at what you'll get in exchange. You get to live FOREVER! You have a special house built just for you. You have sex slaves, golden pavement, livestock, food, or be the god of your very own world! Just depends on which loving, altruistic, selfless religion you decide to persue...

I'm sorry, but I think Shaz has it just about right. The current BOT or BOD or whatever seems to be simply watching out for #1. They're into job security plain and simple. What other explanation could there be for their unbelievably cold and counterproductive actions? Geeze, if they really wanted to have a "new dawn" at WayWorld, would it really be all that difficult? Make a dramatic and complete public apology for all of TWI's misdeeds over the years, have a huge open house event at HQ and invite the whole world over to have brats, sing songs, swim in the pond, have a sort of revised ROA and just BE NICE for a change. Have some gimp with a modicum of charisma redo the original PFAL class, revise the materials to purge the really over-the-top crap (Eve as a lesbian, etc.) and VOILA! new "grads" are rolling in, more ABS than they know what to do with, and a BRAVE NEW WAYWORLD is born. There seems to be no shortage of credulous folks who will follow any religious/superstitious regimen if it's given a good presentation. Wayworld is certainly not beyond saving if there were anyone that wanted to. The fact that the BOD doesn't seem to be interested speaks volumes to me...

Gawd, It was ALL awful. At best the songs were advertising jingles, at worst... well they were farking nauseating. I never bought a single "Way Prod" album (though somebody did give me TWI Orchestra tape once). To somebody who LOVES jazz and instrumental stuff performed by people who really knew how (Joe Venutti, Django Reinhardt, Joe Pass, Kenny Burell, Martin Taylor, Art Tatum, etc.), listening to WayWorld stuff was physically painful. "The Worst" may be a little hard to come up with, given the sheer volume of choices, but "The Attic of Your Mind" or "PFAL" would have to be in the running...

I musta left before most of yas, but the term I remember being used about someone who didn't rubber stamp everything that "leaders" did was that the person was one who "bucked" leadership. I guess that meant that they still had a shred of individuality left, and you know how dangerous that can be to the "move of THE WURD". Eeeek, my memories of WayWorld, though thankfully more distant each day, are stll like a bad dream. I can't believe I actually bought the bull$hit for sooooo long...

Excie stole my thunder. To think that TWI could "fix" itself would seem to indicate that it was - at one time anyway - something worthwhile, when in reality, it was a shabby, $hitty, little carny-sideshow scam from the gitgo. Had we all been a little older and more mature, I'm quite sure we'd have never fallen for the Vickster's tepid B.S.

Goey, Re:"George, 'Some' theology - or even 'most' theology may hold to these rationalizations - but not all theology. (Just for the record)" I dunno. Whenever the subject is invisible, inaudible (at least to the unwashed heathen), and ethereal I think the capacity for spin is there, whether or not the adherents utilize that capacity or are even aware of it. When there's nothing physical to prove or disprove what the preacher's saying there's a built-in BUNCH of wiggle room, no? Anyway, to get back to the topic, I don't know of anyone at WayWorld ever suggesting that the return of Christ was predictable. It was always worldly type events that they knew more about than anyone else. "The Father told me", was all that was needed to get everyone's attention...

Other than the incessant g.d. MEETINGS (which seems to be a rather common complaint) I don't miss the stifling of thought the most. I mean, when you were part of God's Ministry, and had all the answers, why actually think about anything? You know, "Don't reinvent the wheel" and such like that passed for sage advice. Translation: "We've already figured out the doctrine, all you have to do is believe it. Don't go checking our work." Of course the same type of thing is done in most all religions to a greater or lessor degree. Don't think so? Try having an honest discussion on evolution, abortion, or homosexuality in church sometime. Yeah, that's gonna get REAL even-handed treatment, you bet...

I think there've been quite a few. Back in the mid-70's Mr. Wierwille was playing quite the fear-monger about all sorts of secret government events. The "Illuminati" was out to subvert America and overthrough our constitution! And what were we supposed to do about it? Well, we were advised to assemble a survival kit (I ferget the cutesy TWI name for it now), with millet for food (YUMMY!), warm clothes, maps, matches, a gun, plenty of ammo, and various and sundry other goodies. We were supposed to keep this kit available at all times, so, given the word from "leadership" we could just grab our backpack and head for the hills (And just what were we gonna do once we got there? I haven't a clue...). Anyway, the evil takeover by the Illuminati never took place, but of course there was a very good reason for that. The "BELIEVERS" in TWI had prayed so hard that the devil just couldn't bring it to pass. WOW! Isn't that amazing? You never knew we were so close to annihilation did you? A few years later the 'ol evil Illuminati was at it again, and word came down from HQ that we should be ready again to take to the hills on a moments notice. But, wouldn't ya know, the faithful prayer of all those righteous Wayfers subverted the devil's plan again! I've heard of several other imminent disasters that were averted in the last second by - you guessed it - the faithful, fervent prayer of the WayWorld believers. I know the Y2K was also billed as a coming meltdown of life as we know it, and blah, blah, blah, faithful prayer, standing in the gap, blah, blah, blah, and certain destruction was avoided thanks to the wonderous ministry of the Way... But, in a larger sense, doesn't religion do this kinda thing all the time? Somebody's sick, so they get prayed for. They don't get better, weeellll, they must be REALLY important to God, so the devil is working overtime to keep them sick! Or if they get better HALLELUJAH! The Lord is working His divine plan! Or if they die, well, then it gets a little more complicated. We have to say stuff like, "Well, it's all in God's hands. He knows what He's doing!" "It's all part of HIS plan!" (gosh, nifty plan, huh?). There's ready-made spin built into theology to explain away any result. God gets credit for any good, the devil gets the blame for anything bad, and anything we don't understand, well, It's just too big for us! Isn't that convenient?

I think I can relate to Karmic's viewpoint best. I don't relate to anyone all that well anymore. I think I'd make a good hermit. "People-person" I'm not (I know, you're all shocked)

Cynic, Re:"George does not escape historical facts involving those atheists, their particular states and Marxism's significant and directed anti-theistic scheme by defining devotion to anti-theistic collectivism as merely another form of theism." Why not? These guys were not promoting the idea that God - if he exists - is beyond knowing. They were the same type of narcissistic ego-maniacs that had been (and are) the heads of religions for years and simply adopted a different "faith". As Oak pointed out, I was talking about "agnostics", not a bunch of rabid, amoral tin-hat dictators. I don't know how you can draw the parallel.

And I would posit that in those cases (and even throw in Hitler and Mussolini if you'd like) that the state becomes god and communism (or fascism) is the religion. They even have all the cute little ceremonies, symbols, and rites that "regular" religions have. And naturally they have that one constant among all religions, the unbending tenet of "My Way or the Highway!"

Sudo, "It's fine for people to believe whatever myths they want but unfortunately they want to make everybody ELSE believe them too!" Well of course! It's the TRUTH after all! Why, you can't just let a bunch of unbelievers run around free. God knows what trouble they'll be brewing up. That being said, when was the last time you heard of anyone being taken hostage, tortured, or killed by an extreme, fundamentalist group of agnostics?

Sunesis, "Christ was the first spiritual being to experience humanity. He is cosmic." Yeah, and he also may be non-existant. Kinda took some of the enthusiasm out of my religious endeavors when I realized that...

Bless you too, man! You're THE BEST, BRO! (You'll haveta learn to drop the "ther", it's just not familiar enough, O.K.?) Akkk! Even in jest, this type of speak gives me the creeps. Gawd, did I really actually talk like that once? Unbelievable! Oh, and sorry about the duplication. It looks as though the "Wayspeak" topic has gotten much more thorough coverage already in the "About the Way" forum.

Refiner, Re:"It sure is hard on this site.... I never seen so much abbreviation and 'insider speak' in my life." You shoulda seen it in real life in WayWorld! Gawd, an outsider often didn't have a clue as to what was being said. A few brief definitions: "Believing" - v., hoping, wishing "available" - adjective, possible, in stock, ready "lifeline" - noun, deadline (sounds sooo negative, doesn't it?) "retemory" - noun, a memorized verse of scripture (retain-in-your-memory, tres chic, no?) "TWI" - noun, The Way International (headquarters - New Knoxville, OH.) "W.O.W." - noun, the stated goal of TWI, Word Over the World, also an evangelism program whereby one could commit to a one year sentence of promoting TWI and it's theology class. "PFAL" - noun, a series of classes offered by TWI,(foundational - the intro to WayWorld where the graduation is punctuating by being "led" into speaking in tongues, the intermediate class where the students supposedly learn to "operate" the "manifestations of interpretation of tongues and prophesy, and the advanced class where one learns how to operated "all nine all the time" i.e. the nine "manifestations" of the spirit listed in ICor. 12. "The Way Corps" (or just "the Corps")- noun, a training program for the really committed ones (those without a real, functioning life) whereby you voluntarily give up your existence for 3 years to live at a WayWorld "root" locale and take classes, eat gerbil food, and work your a$$ off, so you can be trained to be a "twig" leader. "twig" - noun, a group of Wayfers who meet at somebody's home several times a week to play church (TWI-style) "branch, area, limb, trunk, root" the proceedingly larger areas of TWI governance (root locales being the hdqrtrs or other campus where the high mucky-mucks reign) "bless" - verb, noun, adjective, parenthetical phrase, you name it, we used this word for EVERYTHING. Greeting, statement of your current mental condition, what the weather's like, the economic situation, or the mechanical condition of your automobile, "you're the blessed best", it's blessed, what a blessing, I'm blessed, it's blessed, bless!" We beat this word to death. There's MUCH more to Wayspeak, believe me, but this will get you started. You'll be talking like a Wayfer before you know it...

Oakspear, Re: "If I hadn't been born into a Christian family in a predominantly Christian culture, I probably wouldn't even be thinking about it." Idn't that the truth. Rabbit's feet, stepping on a crack in the sidewalk, or dreading the boogeyman in the closet we can usually grow out of, but the superstition of religion hangs on with a terrible tenacity...