George Aar

TID, Oh no! It's late and you've given me a terminal case of the giggles. "Mo Weird" indeed! Tee hee... (now how am I going to get that out of my head?)

Oh, and BTW, I guess the CORRECT answer from the CES crowd is "NO, it makes him bigger!" (see 1st post). He's not God, he's BIGGER than God? I give up. I just don't get religious thought.

O.K., so JL is trying to establish a point by making a statement that could only be considered true if you accept the point he's trying to establish? Oh, my head! Now I'm thoroughly (throughly?) confused. Of course, if Jesus is just another myth among the many, it's makes it all a rather pointless. How did I end up in this conversation anyway? feh...

And just sos I don't get accused of derailing, The dictionary definition of "demean" (Funk and Wagnell's Collegiate Dictionary - 1968) has "To lower in dignity or reputation". Please tell me how demoting someone from the job of "creator of all the known universe" to that of errand boy, doesn't demean him? What, because he had to work really hard, it doesn't matter what his station in life is? It's not "demeaning" to go from "Ultimate, Omnipotent Holy Thunderer", to that of "perfect MAN"? I guess the #1 rule of TWI still applies? That is "Things mean what we say they mean (dammit!)"

Zixar and TomOdd, As I remember it, VPW was adamant about some Hebrew word in the O.T. He claimed it had to mean something other than what was it was translated as, otherwise "the whole WURD would fall to pieces", yada, yada,... He said that the research boys couldn't find any usage or definition that backed up his take on the word. He then got real animated and said, "Well it's GOT to be there, so keep looking! That's why they call it RESEARCH!" To which I could only think "HUH?" I remember having SERIOUS reservations about WayWorld after that. It still took years for me to finally shake off the notion of TWI being "God's Ministry" or other such twaddle.

Oddone, I was never in the research dept. at all, but I heard him say as much in an open meeting (that became a SNS tape!).

I won't even "go there" as far as the line about the Vicster being proud - I think I handled that adequately the last time this turgid piece of crap was posted here. But how about "In regard to your involvement in The Way , you could choose to be a victim..." Ah, yes, that's our choice, EITHER to remain pathetic, pouting, implacable VICTIMS - OR we can come scraping and bowing and begging the reknowned MAN OF GOD, to PLEASE share some of his incredible insights with us. To quote our esteemed vice president, "Go #$%& yourself." Wake up and smell the decade. We're no longer steeped in the counter-cultured, cult-prone 70s. Jim Jones, Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggert, and about a gazillion other half-assed perdition pimps have all had their moment in the sun and have gone by the boards. As did V.P. Wierwille and his ministry. What could another ....ant, spin-off bunch of Bible thumpers have to offer that is not already being handled - far more efficiently and with far better established controls and oversight - by the 10's of thousands of denominational and non-denominational churches already covering the landscape? MY advice for all the ex-way-spinoff-meisters is still the same. Go get a REAL farking job and do something productive for a change. You may even get some REAL insights into what life is REALLY about.

Suz and I just this moment have returned home from a weekend in Oregon. Always a beautiful place. We saw the "Spruce Goose" and just drove around a bit. Met some old ex-TWI friends headed for home. We've often talked of relocating there. The worse traffic gets around here, the more sense it makes... (So sorry to hear about the drowning. How terrible!)

Oh, hey, I just stopped by to see if you pathetic wretches are living as righteously as I am. No? Well, no matter, I'm still a victorious, selfless Christian, and that's what really matters, isn't it?

"what figure is it?" I think it's "derogatorio", but I'll have to check my AC syllabus...

"How can your God dam folks as you order him to do so in your above post, if you do not believe in any god?" Hey! It's a figure of speech! (Boy, you really need to take THE CLASS again, sheesh) :D-->

Well, I, for one, feel that MC should get a refund for every cent of her Greasespot dues. Jeeze Pete, why does everything have to be a farking soap opera? It's a freaking website, run at no cost to the participants (and at a rather sizeable cost to the administrator, I would guess) for THEIR benefit. In order to keep the level of catfighting to a minimum, a few rules were necessary. Maybe the rules - or their enforcement - aren't to your liking. So whadaya want fer nuthin'? Goddam, get a freaking grip already...

Hey, thanks all! I may be still having them, but I'm not counting them anymore. I'll be 17 this Saturday (again). David, how'd you know?

Oral Robert's teaching was called "The Fourth Man", and is still available from O.R. University for anyone who's interested...

Def, No, not forgetting the "fallen world" tripe, just dismissing it out of hand. When has humanity ever acted differently? Yes, we have the CAPACITY to do greater harm today, due to technology, but the overall focus of people seems to have remained rather constant over the millenia, if historical records (yes, even the Bible) and the archaelogical evidence can be trusted. And you do seem to want to jump ahead. Why should the Bible be regarded as anything special? I mean, over any other supposed "holy" writs? Why should we regard The Bible in a reverant, unquestioning attitude, while simultaneously disregarding The Koran, The Bhagivagita, The Tibetan Book of the Dead, the sayings of Buddha (a copy of which is in most hotel rooms of Japan ala the Gideon Bible in the U.S.), or The Book of Mormon? And please, save me the comparisons to "Mike". Cheezus, I don't call you a raving nutcase because of your unchecked credulity, do I? And, not that it's any of your business, but I tend towards a somewhat Confuscian outlook on life. The basic idea being quite similar to "The Golden Rule". A very simple idea that in order to get along in life, it makes the most sense to treat people in a decent and accomodating manner and work towards a common good. A concept that's not just given lip-service in Asia, but is put into practice. The general populace is trained from birth to think of the impact of their actions on the community at large. Hence, there's no litter problem to speak of, not much grafitti or vandalism, and crime in general is a fraction of what it is in the more "Christian" west. So you tell me which philosophy works best? Think of all the wars that have been waged, all the people who've been tortured, all the unspeakable atrocities done in the name of a Christian god, and then tell me again about how moral I could act if only again I'd embrace the concept of a infallible Word of God. And why is it that a person needs the threat of hellfire and damnation and the carrot of eternal rewards in order to keep from killing one another? Anybody that morally bankrupt would definitely not be on my list. But then, that's just me... (oh, and BTW, it's "you're" for contraction of "you are" and "your" as a possessive pronoun. Sorry, a pet peeve of mine...)

Isn't SIT what really "sealed" it for us as far as buying the B.S. from Herr Doktor? I know it sure was for me. I was speaking the wonderful works of God in a language unknown to me! Wow! What more proof do you need? GOD IS REAL! Or so I thought. Funny how the "tongues" never sounded like any language I'd ever heard before. And a lot of them didn't sound like much of anything at all (like VPW's). I also found it troubling that the most articulate, witty, well-educated people ALWAYS had the most interesting "tongue". And the folks in your twig who were, well, not real bright, ALWAYS had very rudamentary, repeatitive tongues. Gee, if God was giving the utterance, how could that be? Maybe it's not a tongue at all! Maybe it's a simple parlor trick, that given the right amount of coaching, the right environment (supportive, encouraging), it's something anyone can do. Given the fact that a large portion of our brain is devoted to speech, and speaking is as natural as walking or eating or reproducing, is it all that hard to believe that we could concoct an "unknown tongue" spontaneously? I think not. And the idea that a simple parlor trick was the primary motivation to lay waste to fifteen years of my life, doesn't set too well with me. But, in the interest of intellectualy honesty, one has to at least consider the possibility, doesn't he?

Yeah, I think you've got the basic flavor figured out. It's sort of Amway for Jesus. A little 60s pop-psychology, a little Billy Sunday-style preaching, and maybe a dash of Masonic Order-type "We have truths the world knows not of". Mix well, add in a generous dose of San Francisco style philosophy of free love and free thinking (at least during the early 70s) and an upbeat message that God not only loves you but will give you ANYTHING you want, money, power, job, joy, peace, and ETERNAL SECURITY, and you've got your basic PFAL mindset. I was young and foolish, so sue me...

Wifey and I saw this last night on PPV (third time for her). I thoroughly enjoyed it. Not just for the quirky story or the sets or the heart-strings-plucking ending, but for the craft that went into it. Great attention to detail in composing the story with all it's intricacies. It's like a Swiss watch in complexity and workmanship. It's what movies SHOULD be like (but unfortunately aren't).

Why I personally reject the Bible is simply because it's the easiest case to make. Rather than spend endless hours trying to develop a plausible spin to explain why an all-knowing, all-powerful, omnipresent God did all the apparently evil things mentioned in the O.T., isn't it a whole bunch easier to swallow that the book is simple a collection of myths? You don't have to explain the genocide and cruelty of the O.T. god. You don't have to come up with an explanation for why bad things happen to good (i.e. Christian) people today. Children born with horrible defects, untimely deaths, wars, famine, pestilence, and just sorrow in general, become quite easy to explain when the Bible is regarded as simply what it appears to be. A collection of stories of a primitive, ignorant, and superstitious people. The trouble happens when somebody baptises the book "Holy" and then all the excuses (and arguments) start. Why bother? I mean, REALLY...

And the distinct possibility that Herr Doktor was a freaking mental case no doubt explains quite a bit also...

"when we go to heaven in the new birth of putting on the new body we will be both sexes" So when we get to heaven we can tell somebody to go %$&* themselves, and really mean it?

But the most important question, one of true worldwide importance, Do Ozites REALLY offer to "slip another shrimp on the Barby" for visiting Yanks?

While I'm thinking about it, Harry knew damn good and well that the money he was "giving" to WayWorld wasn't going to any philanthropic cause. It was buying brother Vic new toys, new product (classes, tapes, books, etc.), and promoting the business (er, ministry). He was the secretary/treasurer for gawd's sake. You think he didn't know what was happening to the dough?

Hey, the two were brothers. They grew up together in a small town. Went to school together, chased around together. How many secrets do you think younger brother Vic could keep from (a supposedly business-savy) older brother Harry? As far as that goes, we only have Harry's word for it that: 1. He made a million dollars reupholstering furniture.(!) 2. He financed the "launch" of WayWorld (even if he did, what agreements were made to him?) 3. He emptied out his checkbook every year and gave it all to WayWorld (what did he do with any other monies that may have been in that account before the "emptying"?) He may have had a happier, simpler, easier-to-approach demeanor, but he was still a Wierwille. I kinda think maybe he liked sharing in his kid brother's scam. I DID notice while at WayWorld that, all his supposed fortune notwithstanding, Harry didn't provide too well for his own. His wife lived in a shabby little hovel, his old car (a Caddy) was a big, lack-luster, dented-up tank, and - were it not for meals at TWI, I think the poor lady (who was as sweet as pie, make no mistake) may well have starved to death. I never knew him personally, but I'm no longer under the spell of WayWorld propoganda, and think that maybe he put his pants on one leg at a time, like all the rest of us...

Lindyhopper, I'd love to read that in the original! LOL Almost as much fun as "The Devil's Dictionary". Personally I wasn't too offended by the idea of rejecting Christ, but if anybody posts about "Why I Reject Spiderman", well, he's asking for it...