George Aar

OM, "How in the world do you know it wasn't Wierwille's heart and desire to have the word over the world? To desire that for God to be glorified, and man to be blessed?" How do you know that it WAS? "I find your presumptuousness to be astounding." And the same couldn't be said about YOU? You're the one PRESUMING that, despite the mountains of evidence, testimony, documents, and personal revelations given, that, no, Herr Vierville was exactly who he said he was. What was it that was soooo compelling about VPW's schtick that you can't seem to shake off the starry-eyed adoration of such an obvious, morally bankrupt, conman?

Satori, "And look at the three (plus) CES Mouseketeers to this day, still wearing their Wayworld ears." Thanks for that. Made my morning (ha!). OM, Uh, yeah, if we found some discrepancies in THE WORD OF WIERWILLE, we were free to leave. What we weren't free to do was disagree. I guess that's just fine with you, eh?

Sorry in advance for the derail, No, Dave. I think they had moved on (Corps?) the year I first came (back) to Duluth. I met Martha once at the Rock, other than that didn't know them. Ken and Diane were the ones I probably saw the most of while I was in town. Kinda miss those guys, but I think they've written me off as "possessed" or something, cuz I spoke ill of "Dr." Ah, well. I'm sure they're still sweet folks. Ever see them?

No disrespect intended, but I think what you really may need is a life. WayWorld and all it's saccharine sentiments is gone in any practical sense. The emotional highs we experienced there were mostly manufactured. We were not a "family" then anymore than we are now. We're individuals who need to figure out what the hell to do with ourselves and who we really are. Personally I was so out of touch with my real self whilst in TWI(no, not the JL, unseated version) that it took me years to finally start to connect with what it was I really liked, what I wanted to do, and where I wanted to go in life. The TWI sideshow was compelling for a bit, but only if you didn't look too close. We're not family, we're not chosen of God, and we certainly don't have some "special" calling that only the Vickster could fill us in on. That may sound harsh, but imagine living another 40 years before you finally realize it. I met some nice folks in WayWorld, still even see some of them now and then. But life goes on. I enjoy myself much more now without the WayBlinders on, thank you very much...

Johnur, IIRC, Donna was the Vicster's choice for LCM! And, yeah, Craig was an unabashed toadie for Herr Vierville, and browned him up quite regular. To give the devil his due, Craig could work a crowd like few I've ever seen. It was either take over WayWorld or become a Carnival barker. Wierwille saw the talent but (apparently) overlooked the baggage (that Loy was a freaking buffoon)...

CC, Re:"I know he wisely left The Way LONG before Martindale began his reign of terror" Better check your calendar. IIRC, JL left WayWorld long AFTER LoyBoy had taken over as pres. No doubt rivalry between the two had as much to do with his leaving as anything else. I don't think there was any prescient knowledge required. He got fired, didn't he?

What amazes me in retrospect is how small a world we crafted for ourselves in TWI. For all the talk to the contrary, all the blather about how exciting life becomes when you're "doing THE WURD" and how limitless the things of God are, I found that my life got progressively smaller, more closed in, more hemmed in by superstitious adherance to supposed "tremendous truths". Outside of the confines of religious thought I've discovered a HUGE world out here. There are whole arenas of thought, culture, philosophy and lifestyle that I'd have never known a thing about had I kept myself cloistered in some box of theological prohibitions. Oh, yeah, I could have HEARD about them, or seen them on a "National Geographic" special, but I couldn't have actually experienced any of it. Religion is such a sad waste of life. Convinced that their path is the only correct one, and disdaining all others, one is left to view all of creation through a straw, and console yourself that this is the way God wants it. Despite all the holy treatises that have been written to the contrary, the fact remains. This life may well be all we get. Do you really want to waste it playing church? Icky...

Pirate and TomOdd, Have you guys considered cyanide capsules? Small, easy to conceal, and very effective...

Def, This is kinda old now. We hashed this over several months ago, maybe even a year or so. The parts that kinda set off my B.S. meter are the numbers. The 600,000, IIRC, pertains to only the MEN who were in the group. The actual number of people, again, IIRC, was something like 2.5 million. If that's correct it would sorta skew all those accurate calculations he made, wouldn't it? The other thing was the amount of time it took to figure this out. The "Russian Scientist" who's supposed to be some sort of ocean hydrologist or some such took 6 MONTHS to figure out the sealevel? Why wouldn't a specialist such as this have a computer model that could spit out the answer in a couple of minutes? Of course, if it took six months, it would be much more accurate, wouldn't it? Like so much of this stuff, for the true believer it's a "gee whiz!" moment and for the skeptic, it's just more blather...

Danny, You're saying that the books of Timothy were written cir. 150 AD ? Is this the usual date given by the textual research sorta guys? Who do they then attribute it to? I mean, I think Paul woulda been getting rather long in the tooth by then. I'll be damned...

I think generally it's an empty "guarantee" that there'll be pie in the sky, usually followed closely with a pitch for more money. (ever notice how bad the Almighty is with cash? I mean, He's ALWAYS running short) O.K., so I'm a cynical A-hole, so what else is new?

Evan, Yeah, that white-haired boy is about four blocks from "Commanders". I remember eating at "Cressiers" in the warehouse (that's w-a-r-e house) district and having a wonderful meal. Of course, a good French restaurant isn't exactly unique there.

I was hoping to get laid. Yeah, still waiting...

P-mosh, I'm sure Evan can fill in the details much better than I (I'm a mere Yankee, aftuh awl), but the Cemetary in Nawlins is full of fabulous statues and Mausoleums (everyone is interred above ground, due to the sealevel, which N.O. is BELOW). Lots of famous Civil War Generals and leaders and nere-do-wells. And the famous tomb of Marie LeBeau (sp?), a witch or Voo-Doo Priestess or something or other, is a virtual Mecca for every counter-culture wacko, or fringy, new-age religion fan, or just those with an off-beat sense of humor. They leave all sorts of trinkets and talismen there, and kiss her tombstone or something. The Anti-bellum Plantations are worthwhile primarily for their landscaping and exteriors. Interiors are O.K. but pretty unremarkable. The front entry to Oak Alley (as it's name implies) is a corridor of dozens of 200+ year-old Oaks whose branches intertwine overhead creating an amazing canopy over the walkway. It's been in several movies ("Incident at Owl Creek Bridge" was one, I think). The grounds and the subtle pink mansion are just stunning. I liked it, anyway. Personally I didn't care much for Crawfish, despite their reputation. They're rather bland and more work to eat than they're worth, but that's just me. Alligator is wonderful food, though. And be sure to try "cochon du lait" ("pig with milk", I think?) po' boy. And the gumbo is good (and omnipresent) everywhere. And be sure to tell the conmen working the streets ("I know where ya got your boots") to $%^& OFF, right away, or they'll pester you for hours...

Well, ya gotta spend an evening in the French Quarter (but then, you probably knew THAT). I really enjoyed touring the cemetary and then we toured a few of the anti-bellum mansions. There's a few companies that do tours of the places, but I never did that. We just drove out to Oak Alley and the San Francisco and (I think) The Evergreen plantations. They were pretty cool, and the food anywhere is GREAT. Unfortunately, the weather this time of year is nigh unto insufferable (at least for me). If you've got the time, stop into "Howl at the Moon" on Bourbon ST. and say "HI" to Jason, the tall, blonde bartender/manager (Suzie's oldest boy).

Evan and Ex10, I'd let you on my lifeboat anytime. No singing though. One verse of "Peace Like a River" and you'll be treading water...

I think a bigger error with regards to II Tim. is the word "scripture", which couldn't be referring to N.T. canon at all, as it didn't exist yet. It was O.T. "scripture" that all this misappropriated blather was about all along. And - because we were a bunch of immature and unschooled KIDS - we never caught on, despite the endless of hours of pointless "research" we endured.

The only thing I was sure about "Momentus" before reading this thread was that I'd most certainly NOT be taking it - as I've vowed a vow to NEVER take any class where the instructor goes looking for me (rather than the other way around). But now it seems like the popular (and widely discredited) "sensitivity training" of the '70s and early '80s. What I remember of THAT exercise in pop-psychology is that corporations quit doing it because of the DECREASE in productivity after their top producers took it. Brash, cocky, even arrogant salespeople all of a sudden had their foundations shaken. Top executives had doubts creep in where there had previously been only hubris. And even mediocre performers were often left with their heads spinning and wondering what was really important anymore. When the beancounters finally tallied up the score, the results of such mental manipulation wasn't very favorable. So is Momentus worth it? I dunno. But I'm not gonna expend any great deal of effort to find out. Funny, though, the feelings I'm getting from Evan and Ex10 are sort of John Wayneish. "Yeah, the training's not for everybody." "Some folks are just too wimpy, too compfy in their mediocre rut in life to test the borders." "But for those of us that could handle it, well, it was pretty good, you know Pilgrim?" Sorry if I'm misreading you, but that's what it sounds like to me...

ex10, I'm not THAT exorcised over the whole thing, but, I think I can explain the bile being spewed out at JL et al. Jeffy, no doubt trying to do his "bit" for the almighty (who I guess - despite the biblical rhetoric about the rocks speaking, etc.- is incapable of handling this sort of thing Himself), posted this letter - AGAIN - in a public forum which is replete with all sorts of shaded critiques and jabs at the ex-TWI community. WE'VE missed the mark (again!), we're indulging ourselves in a VICTIM mentality, we need to turn back to THE WURD! (rhymes with $%^&). I for one have had enough of anointed (self-appointed) leaders pointing out my "weaknesses" or ladeling out their unsolicited advice as to how to make myself acceptable to God. If someone wants to get advice from (and finance) the likes of JL, MG, VF, CG, DS, or any of the other of the myriad of spin-off meisters, be my guest. But when they post on a public forum and start berating and criticizing folks - unsolicited - they're asking for it. And I'm glad they're getting it. They've got it coming...

I dunno. Spoiled? No more than Christmas was "spoiled" when I found out there was no Santa Claus. It was an eye-opener fer sure. But spoiled? Nah, but like the "tree of knowledge" in the garden, once you taste of it, there's no going back. Really, I can't imagine ever entertaining any mystical notions of creation or an afterlife or any of the icky religious sort of feelings I had in church or WayWorld. There's nothing to it. It's an empty cistern, a vapid, banal concept. Why does anyone waste their time with it? I couldn't begin to tell you, anymore...

Laleo, I love it when you talk dirty...

Oh, and please illucidate me. What could be accomplished in a face to face debate that couldn't be handled, in front of God and everybody, right here on the internet? That is, unless you plan to use the "braille" method of mind reading? Grow up junior...

"I challenge you to meet ME face to face (uh, in MY hometown) so you can debate with me as to whether professional wrestling is rigged." Just when I think all the real maroons have been flushed out, another one comes along, burping and farting his disapproval of most everyone and everything non-Way flavored. Why is genius so scarce and stupid so common?

Evan, I think you're referring to "Semi-Tough" (also with Kris Kristofferson).

I guess I see it a little more sinister than that. (Hey, I'm an agnostic, I'm not required to think no evil - just another of the perks of giving up my religious propensities) To me the whole argument is formed into cutesy bite-sized nibblets. "One-liners" that are supposed to convey some larger truth, but in actuality overlook the convoluted, difficult aspects of a philosophy in order to keep their "troops" satisfied. No need to think, just accept what the learned MOG has said. More than a little reminiscent of the ministry that spawned this one. I'm sorry, the whole line of reasoning smacks of WaySpeak, and gives me the creeps. (and I'd certainly follow Cynic's admonition with regards to poker or any other noteworthy endeavor)