George Aar

2Life, Hell, I can't find the $7.50 deal now either. I know it was up there a day or two ago. I guess they've moved all the back issues they wanted. Anyway, re: "I don't want to be a skeptic. Skepticism (to me) just feels a bit restrictive-- and dull." I can only say "huh?" I think you misunderstand the whole concept. A skeptic is not closed minded, he simply wants (and expects) PROOF! Not all that hard to understand. And I take issue with the idea of a "healthy amount" of skepticism. Geeze, does anyone think there's such a thing as a "healthy amount" of gullibility? I would hope not. From where I sit, I see two basic ways of gathering information. You can either question things, figure out a little about how they work, what makes them tick, decide whether the whole concept is viable or not - or - you can accept it at face value. A skeptic doesn't neccessarily have to be dull (though the charge has been leveled at me on occasion). He just doesn't spend a lot of time wondering down blind alleys or buying snakeoil. The only restriction you may encounter is that you're far less likely to play the fool for anyone. Gee, that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make...

First stop I'd recommend for any potential "seeker": http://www.skeptic.com/store.html Hey, four issues for $7.50! Get a glimpse how REAL skeptics think...

BTW, "A classic anti-seeker"? I didn't know there was such a thing (is there?).

Sirguess, My reaction to this film (or, actually to the buzz about it) is about the same as if there were a film perported to be about gourmet cooking and I found out that Jeffrey Dahmer was listed as a contributing editor. My advice to anyone? Go see the film if you want. By all means. Just be aware of the highly suspect nature of the producers. You liked it. Wonderful. If it comes out on video (and it's on the "bargain" rack), I might even give it a viewing. But it would be with a very jaundiced eye, I assure you.

Def, RE:"Christianity says the work has been done. All I have to do is accept. I hope that helps." Gaaak! How could it? Just accept it? But, but, Gawd, I don't even know where to start (refer back to the "disconnect" in my prior posts). How can you just accept something that you have no proof of? You don't know where the Bible came from, who wrote it, when it was written, why it was written, and certainly not whether any of it is even true. You don't know if there ever was a Jesus of Nazareth, what he actually did if he lived, what he really believed or said (even if you believe the Bible all it ever does it quote him, he didn't actually write any of it). So with all that unknown, we're still supposed to just accept it. Why?

B.S. ALERT! B.S. ALERT! WHOOP! WHOOP! Cheezus people, look at who's on their list of contributors - RAMTHA fer chrissake. That and a decidely large number of Phd.s from Berkeley is all I need to set my Charlatan phaser on "Destroy". Am I exhibiting an extreme prejudice and bigotry with regards to this film? Indeed, and not without reason. Gawd, did you guys learn ANYTHING from your cult involvement?

I dunno, I find myself reminded of the ramblings of another great MOG of our time - Dr. Bronner (you know, the soap guy). "Five Billion strong and we're all one, exceptions eternally - absolutely none!" Am I the only one who actually READ the label? Talk about odd. The only stream-of-conscious labeling I'm aware of. Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled. BTW, Satori, I found myself chuckling along with your description of our resident Wierwille guru. A specimen indeed. Talk about your pathologies...

Waterbuffalo, It was Sam Graham who wrote "Love is Brown".

Sky, Well, maybe I was "fortunate" as well, in that I'd spent many years in denominational Christianity before WayWorld came along. But PUHLEEZE, don't be "saddened" for me. I'm fine. I just don't care to adopt an arbitrary religious paradigm as "THE TRUTH", because there's an old book that people claim says so. And re:"With respect to the Bible, the prophecies in Isaiah and elsewhere about Christ certainly give authenticity to the writings." Uh, How? Look over your responses and those of the other "believer" folks who've posted. Do you see anybody talking about "evidence"? I sure don't. It's all about what you already believe or what you feel, or - as ckeer conveniently said, the penultimate Wayfer statement of belief "I JUST KNOW". I'm sorry buddy, but for a non-theist, there's just not enough to go on. If you enjoy it, well I guess that's your business, and I'm not trying to be derisive or confrontational, but for the life of me, I can't see the difference between your chosen "faith" and simple self-delusion.

Sky, Re:"I dont think I am preaching a set of beliefs either. All I need is Christ, and I know that he was crucified." But... isn't THAT a belief? That's the disconnect I was talking about. HOW do you know that there even WAS a Jesus Christ or that he was crucified? What possible proof could there be? Isn't this simply an idea you accept or reject? Why should anyone give an credence to the Bible? Why? Or - for Mike's benefit - why should we give any credence to anything "Doctor" Wierwille ever said (that one's even MORE preporsterous)? Doesn't it always boil down to the Wayfer's credo "I just know"?

Hell, I'd send 'em over a pitcher of Kool-aid.

But Sky, But, you haven't given us anything. You're still believing it because you do. I know lots of people who have widely disparate views when it comes to theology. I knew a girl who was absolutely convinced that astrology was God's way of communicating with man. I have a very good friend who's certain that the priest at his temple (he's a Buddhist) can levitate at will (though he's never actually SEEN him do it), I have friends (ex-Wayfers) who are WAY off into "apocalyptic Christian" movement (I REALLY don't get that). I also know several Mormons, a Muslim or two, and a JW. These folks are all as convinced as you (it would seem) as to the veracity of their particular belief system. Yet, they cannot all be right if you are(and vice versa), can they? People believe all sorts of stuff. And there are absolute, sold-out zealots in just about every religion you can think of. Every bit as convinced of the rightness of their faith (and the wrongness of everyone elses) as you seem to be. How can you be so sure you're not just deluding yourself? Somebody someplace must be, no?

Well, we've been up and down this road before, haven't we? The difficult part of this dialog is that there is a disconnect between the believer and the skeptic. There is a certain point in the believer's mind beyond which he will not go, for to tread in that territory would put at risk all he has come to hold dear for all the years of his "believing" stature. I know as a Christian I would never entertain the thought that the Bible could be anything but GOD'S WORD ™. For to do so would raise all kinds of questions I just wasn't ready to face. Not terribly difficult questions, ones like Oak and Mosh have already raised, and a few others. That is where the disconnect comes in. The skeptic has no problem venturing into those forbidden topics, because he has no fear of finding out something he doesn't want to. The believer, OTOH, risks his very identity. So the skeptic can ask all those type of questions he wants, but the believer, IMHO, will forever be playing a game of obfuscating, spinning, and twisting the facts - I think often, unconsciously - in order not to upset his accepted mythology. I know personally that intellectual dishonesy was where I lived throughout my tenure as a "Christian". Maybe I'm the only one?

Shellon, If I knew for certain that the guy is still "messing" with kids, I'd drop a dime on him in a heartbeat. Give an anonymous call to CPS and they'll be all over him like a cheap suit.

O.K., it's not exactly new. But it's finally out on PPV so I got to see it last night. I gotta say, for all the hype, I was sorta disappointed. Yeah, Sean Penn was pretty convincing as a semi-reformed hoodlum and Kevin Bacon was O.K., but the story really didn't go anywhere. If you strip away the one plot twist, it was a pretty poor murder/mystery yarn. I'd figured out who the murderer was long before it was revealed - but the reason I'd assumed for the murder wasn't it. The reason for the murder was left sorta vague and didn't make much sense to me. And Tim Robbins was horribly miscast. I never could believe him for a minute. He just couldn't do the role properly, IMHO. Anyway, I'd give it a marginal thumbs up, I guess. If there was nothing else on, and you HAD to watch SOMETHING. Otherwise it's a pass. Maybe Clint should go back to doing "Dirty Harry"?

Song, Forgive me, but after I'd read your letter and then got to the missive from your "feyahless leaduh", I just broke out laughing. It was just SOOOOO absurd. Cheezus Gawd, for all the talk of "The Love of God" and "Walking in Love", blah, blah, blah,...so many Wayfers didn't even know how to fake a loving response. Hell, that clown couldn't even fake a HUMAN response! The Way International - and all it's various and sundry lackies (and spinoffs) is so utterly devoid of anything worthwhile, so completely inbred and self-serving, and just so unbelievably STUPID, I stand in awe. The one thing in my life that I've done that I would unhesitatingly say was disgraceful was to ever get involved with that pathetic P.O.S. organization. I'm truly ashamed of that. I trust your life is going immeasurably better now that you've broken free. Sorry for the all the #$%^ they threw at you in the meantime, though. And it's a dump, but you're welcome at my house anytime as well.

Well of course he's not going to indulge in any real debate with anyone here. He's a busy man (unlike any of us), busy, busy, busy (did I mention he was busy?). He's got the weight of the whole world on his shoulders, after all. Since the emminent DR. WIERWILLE (who would be VERY proud of him) has passed, it's only JAL and co. that are the TRUE ministers of THE WURD. All those gazillion other guys out there who make their living by selling Christian theology, well, they're just not doing it right. We NEED CES as it's the only bastion of the True Wurd left for us. And naturally, when you're in charge of an organization THAT important, you can't take time to talk to mere people. Especially when there's not much fresh meat around. He's busy, afterall. Remember? REALLY busy. Bah, just another drive-by posting...

I've made this pitch before, but what the hay, Former Wayfers might enjoy reading "Judgement Day" by Nathaniel Branden. He was a major player in the inner circle of Ayn Rand's, uh, er, cul.., organization. (He was also her lover for a time). Anyway, the parallels to WayWorld will be evident to anyone. An eyeopener for me when I first left TWI, and a good read besides...

Nevermind the incredible bull$%&* you had to endure with the looooong drive, I always had trouble figuring out what the point of a "twig fellowship" was, even when it was done "right". The Bible is only so many pages. You read, you reread it, you reread it, you talk about it, you reread it, you reread it, you talk about, you hear somebody else talk about it, you reread it, you talk about, reread, somebody else talks about, CHEEZUS, enough already! I GET it! Damn, but I wasted a serious amount of time running in circles...

Watered Garden, Oh, I remember the car O.K., I just didn't connect it with the "black limo" that Blue Sunday mentioned. I thought I'd missed something. When I left WayWorld staff in spring of '89, the engine in my wife's station wagon (a beat-up old full-size Ford) was going bad, so I had to plead with "transportation" to fix it. They couldn't find a decent engine anywhere around NK, so I suggested to Jack W. that they pull the motor out of the Lincoln (they were the same block) and let Mrs. Wierwille drive one of the Way Builder's trucks. As Jack was on his way out the door as well, he almost considered it. I guess he felt, WayWorld's sins notwithstanding, that the Mrs. deserved better. I would've loved to have gotten at least that lick in on the bastards, but it was not to be...

I don't have any specifics, hell at this late date I have few generalities, but I never thought ANYBODY else was ever really in the running for Pres. My impression at the time was that it was a done deal. Craiggers would be the new prez. I know Wierwille's line at the time was that the job could go to "any PFAL grad". Yeah, sure. Everybody knew THAT was B.S. But it seemed for years that LCM was being groomed to take over. He was the one always traveling with VPW, always got the "plum" kinda jobs, always leading the crowd or warming up the room for VP's victorious entrance. I was certain it'd be nobody BUT LCM for years. It always seemed like everyone else around was playing second string. VP always threw the laurels to Craig. Nobody else got that impression?

Is anything more of a relief than finally breaking free from a domineering cult? A shame the family didn't make it out intact Oak, but at least you did. And re: Tom H. I knew him just a bit while I was working at Gunnison. He never struck me as having an overabundance of brain power. Maybe I misread him, I dunno. Though your experience doesn't do much to change my initial opinion. Whenever I hear stories like that, though, I always wonder. What's going to become of these Stepford "leaders" when the show is finally over? Out on the streets, no job, no job skills, no resume, no education, and nothing but tainted memories of a deluded, misspent life. Oooo, that ain't gonna be pretty. Glad you're "here" and not "there"!

Oh course, if he'd been paying attention, he'd have realized that the ranks of glassy-eyed, fawning, a$$-kissing, star-struck lackies was in short supply as well. Which would be closer to my guess as to why he isn't spending an excessive amount of time here. Of course he does have his "work" to do. Hooo, boy, all that heavy lifting really takes it out of a guy...

Come on Blue Sunday, Fill us in on the rest of the "Black Limo" story. I'd never heard a word of it...

OM, "George, it's pretty difficult for me to reason with you if you now believe everything about your experience with twi was one big obscene waste of time." Yeah, reality can be a rather harsh taskmaster...