George Aar

I just prefer not to bull$hit myself anymore. I know death is a rather harsh reality to comprehend, but I think it wiser to come to terms with it, rather than adopting a superstition that tries to soften it's image. The more I look at any religion, the more the glaring flaws in it's logic become evident. "God is love, God can do anything!" Oh yeah? So why did 20 or 30 thousand kids die of malnutrition yesterday? It would seem that God must be incompetent, uncaring, or oblivious. "No, no, no!" God LOVES us all SOOO much! You're just too stupid to understand how He works!" Yeah, O.K., fine. If spin-doctoring for the almighty is your cup of tea, indulge, by all means. I've gotten to the point where the normal excuses for why a religion doesn't work only emphasize the extremes people will go to validate their "faith". Can you say "denial"? Sure, I knew you could...

Waysurvivor, I don't doubt your memories of your experiences at Gunnison, but I do doubt their veracity. You seem to have a lot of REALLY serious issues with your time in WayWorld - as all of us can certainly understand, but, regardless of what actually happened to you there, I concur with the other posters who've suggested that seeking out a professional counselor would be far more helpful (and needful) than posting here at GS. I find your story very reminiscent to the McMartin Preschool scandal of a few years back. What actually went on there is still pretty vague. Memory - especially a child's - can be like that. It's impossible for those of us not directly connected to your story to be able to sort out the actual events from traumatic delusions. I wonder if you can. Anyway, my sympathies. I hope you find the help you seek.

This thread just gets curiouser and curiouser. Gawd, why all the fixation on "rejection"? Is how we define the word NOW the lynchpin to salvation? Geeze, can you make a pie from nits, after you've picked a bushel or so of them? For no reason in particular, here's a partial list of things I've "rejected" (using the approved Zixar definition) in my life thus far: 1. Santa Claus 2. Chiropractice 3. U.F.O.s 4. Miraculous healing 5. The Tooth Fairy 6. Astrology 7. Ghosts 8. E.S.P. 9. Jesus of Nazareth (or any other superman hero) 10.Buddha 11.Vishnu 12.Thor 13.Zeus 14.Ctulthu 15.Low-fat Ice Cream I'm sure there are others, but that's all that comes to mind at the present...

Laleo, "How can you afford to go out to eat, much less travel the world?" Well, last year was kinda over-the-top for traveling. But I only paid for two of those trips. The trip to NYC and one of the trips to Japan was paid for by employers or business associates. The trip to Tijuana was paid for by airmiles and then the "ministry" put us up and fed us. The other trips really weren't all that expensive. Traveling can be pretty economical if you don't want to spend all your time in a 5-star hotel (a MAJOR waste IMHO). I have friends in Japan who are always happy to have me over (Honest!) and feed me and take me anywhere I want to go (in exchange I do take care of any repairs to their houses that may come up). The last plane ticket, RT to Beijing (from Seattle), with layovers in Tokyo, cost me $725. Meals, lodging, and all the sidetrips I took only added another four or five hundred to the tab. The plane fare to Phnom Penh, RT, was only $900. And hotel accomodations and meals are ridiculously cheap there ($8./day for an air-conditioned double room, breakfast for $1.25, supper for $3.00) So, yeah, it cost, but wasn't THAT overwhelming. A lightweight drug addiction (or a penchant for tithing) would be far more spendy. My mother gave me some sage advice a couple of years ago, "Don't wait till you're too old to do some traveling. I'd love to do it now, but my knees and hips won't let me." Words that ring in my ears. So if you can possibly swing it, I say "Go now!" October or November are great months for Japan. Or else wait till spring (sakura time, ne?), say, late March or early April. Summertime is to be avoided, way too hot and sticky. Fly into Tokyo and spend a day or two (do the Kabukizaa, Rippongi, and a few museums, take the train to Nikko for a day or so, then head down to Kyoto, see a few of the temples (Kinkakeji, Kyomizu, Toji, and maybe Ryuanji and Ginkakeji) and maybe a museum or two there. Eat lots of sushi, drink lots of sake, maybe take a day trip to Miyajima (see the Kintai bridge while you're there, it's close), and if you've got time, definitely go to Nara for the day. Then, when you're all Japaned-out, hop on the train for Narita and you're home in a matter of hours. Amazing! What an age we live in, REALLY!

Laleo, No, that trip was the return flight from Tijuana. I guess it was two years ago now. I'd gone down with some people from my wife's church to build houses for the poor in Mexico. That's a whole 'nother story but suffice it to say, I won't be doing that again. It said something like "WYWAM" on the sides of the van we rode in ("World Youth - something or other - Ministries") but it might as well have said "Ugly Americans". I was never so ashamed of myself in my entire life. A REALLY disgusting venture. That's NOT the way to run a charity. After I came to on the plane I was painfully cold (extremely uncharacteristic for me) and I still couldn't sit up. So they just wrapped me up in blankets and let me lay there on the floor for the rest of the flight. When the plane landed in Seattle they took me off in a wheelchair and had some paramedics waiting for me at the terminal. They looked me over and asked me what I wanted to do. I told them to let me go home, which is what I did. The next morning I went to see a doctor. She took blood, looked in or at all the normal items, and all she could come up with is that I was probably dehydrated. That didn't seem likely to me, as I was careful to drink lots of liquids while in TJ, but that's where it was left. I flew to NYC a few weeks later (that was a rather anxious trip - wondering if I was going to keel over any minute), and had no problems. Then I went to China and Japan, and a few weeks after that went to Cambodia, then I went back to Japan a few weeks after that, and still no trouble. I dunno what it was, besides unsettling. Just one of those fun moments in life. I think I'm going to make another trip to Japan this fall (me and a couple of members of the "good 'ol boys" club). You got your passport warmed up yet?

Sky, Re: "I cannot argue about Christ being alive in my life through the power of the Holy Spirit except to say, it is very real to me. Proof Positive to me." Well, I'm glad for you. Just, please allow a little room for those of us who don't share in your concept of spiritual realities.

I dunno. I had a "death bed" moment on an airliner a year or so ago (or so I thought at the time). I wasn't feeling right, and was trying to make it to the bathroom when I passed out. When I came to there was a whole circus of people hovering over me, a doctor shining a flashlight in my eyes, a couple of flight attendants (Wow! This is my first "medical"! , said one) and one or two passengers trying to render aid somehow. I thought at the time that this might be "it", as I looked up at the ceiling of the 737 swirling around. The only deathbed plea I made at that time was not to set down in Sacramento. "$hit, if I'm gonna die it's gonna be in my own bed!" and on we went to Seattle. Honestly, any thought of gods or Holy Thunderers, or eternal rewards (or damnation) was the furthest thing from my mind. What do I think? I think that Zix has a real need to believe in something, so much so that he's willing to go through all sorts of mental contortions in order to make a silly superstition sound like the epitome of logic. He'll graft scientific principles and theory onto his religion in order to give it more "curb appeal", and condemn anyone that doesn't share his beliefs as being sore losers or whiners, or spewing sour grapes. The idea that non-believers could actually be acting out of logic must be negated at all costs...

How about, Aw, go f%#& yourselves!

Mikey, Re:"I initially rebelled at such a thought, but gradually saw that it was right." Ooooo, GOOD DOG! Here's your biscuit!

Sky, "Either way its a miracle isnt it?" Huh? Oh, and I guess it's time to throw in the required agnostic response to talk of "The Cross". The cross, as a symbol, predates Christianity by many thousands of years. Just further evidence (to me) that Christianity is an amalgam of several older, more "primitive" religions. Virgin births, miraculous healings, strange speaking abilities, prophetic dreams, spiritual guidance from the beyond, and ,naturally, a "superman" hero to worship, all were practiced by numerous cultures centuries before Christianity. And, it seems to me, that Christians today are especially ignorant of - or blind to - the natural evolution of religion and Christianity's place in that.

Sky, Yeah, I'm pretty well aware of the propensity for statuary in the Buddhist faith. If you'd been around a few years ago you could have seen the picture I posted of the largest bronze statue of Buddha in the world (Daibutsudan in Nara, Japan). The comment I didn't understand was about the "molten" stone. And - I still don't.

Zixar, But sposin' the Hindus are right? Geeze, if you embrace Christ on your deathbed, that'll f'up your Karma, won't it? And sky, re: "I just dont want you to believe you can find it any other way, cause i know you can't Just a thought." Sorry to answer for Oak (hey, he did it for me), but you KNOW no such thing. You may BELIEVE it, but you don't know it. Belief may be very pervasive, but it's no substitute for reality, no matter how much you'd like it to be.

UH, Re:"kinda pathetic, don't ya think?" No, it's way past "kinda"...

The whole schtick just gives me the creeps. Just exactly what is the great benefit one should expect from their association with another smarmy group of Bible thumpers? Any ex-Wayfer who, at this late date, is still infatuated with such oily, spiritual soap-salesmen has GOT to have some serious issues they haven't dealt with. Gawd, I'd sooner call in to a 1-800 number for a "Pocket Fisherman", "Vegematic", or possibly a "Cap Snaffler". Surely they're the answer to all my problems...

Why faith? I dunno, false comfort is better than none?

Biggest mistake? Turning off the thought process. How many times did we see obvious, glaring, boneheaded errors in TWI doctrine, and, instead of taking somebody to task for it, simply "held it in obeyance" for a later time (that never came). Just a few of the major flaws in Wierwillian dogma that I caught early on in my tenure (but ignored): "The church epistles are ALWAYS in the same order in every known text" (they are not) "The council of Nicea was in France" ( wrong -Duh!) "The entire Bible fits like a hand in a glove!" (yeah, uh-huh) "The greatest of God's works is His Word!" (yeah, yeah, sure, sure) But we DIDN'T call anybody to task for such crap. We shut off our critical thinking and just accepted. The rest is history (you'd think more of us would have learned something from it)

Def, From my viewpoint, we're already off on the wrong foot. You ask "Why not?" Isn't that jumping the gun a little bit? Why not the Easter Bunny? Why not Zeus? Why not Islam? Personally, when I finally broke free from the mental confines of TWI I started in reevaluating all my beliefs. Why should I be a Christian? The more I thought about it, and the more I actually studied, the less and less I found to support the belief. It eventually dawned on me that Christianity, though, historically, it had the good fortune to find favor with the countries with the biggest armies, had little more to recommend it than did any garden-variety superstition. There simply is no verifiable proof for most any of it's claims. So "WHY Christianity?"

Mr. Hammeroni, Re:"Does anybody know what "Doctor's" "doctorate thesis" was about?" LOL! Near as I know, there never was one. I've heard some hard-core Wierwillites make the excuse that "Well, he's written so many books, and any one of them would be the equivalent of a doctoral thesis, so it really doesn't matter." There are none so blind...

Oak, Thanks for doing the heavy lifting while I was away. :P--> And Def, you seem to have illustrated exactly the impass I was trying to describe in my first post. We have a disconnect. We're not speaking on the same level. You are in believer mode, and I am not. Hence, we'll have great difficulty understanding one another ( I think I have the edge, though, as I USED to believe very similarly to what you seem to now). For all the evidence I could cite as to the various disagreements among scholars about who actually authored the O.T. AND N.T., the discrepencies in supposed secular sources (Josephus, et al), or (as Oakspear has already done) point out all the logical fallacies in your arguments, I'm quite sure you'd be perfectly comfortable dismissing it all with the wave of a hand, because it disagrees with your accepted "faith". The place where I allow my mind to go is verboten to you. You cannot allow yourself to really take much of it in, without getting increasingly uncomfortable, or even downright angry. I get it. And, no, I'm not claiming superior intelligence or insight or anything of the sort. I think I have a more skeptical nature, that's all. And I think at best all we can hope to do is agree to disagree. Such is life. And Sky, I guess you're on sebatical, but when you return, could you explain the thingy about Buddhism and molten lava? I REALLY don't get that. I'm far from an expert on the faith, but I do go to Buddhist temples from time to time (more for the architecture than anything else), and from what I can tell, they're raison d'etre is to achieve "enlightenment". Not a bad goal, really, but what's with the "molten stone" nonsense?

Darrell, It's only a matter of degree. The procedure for girls can be much more damaging and traumatic, I guess. But it's still the same motivation, one of trying to appease God (or gods) by mutilating the flesh. And another thing I've always wondered, if circumcision was to be a "sign", couldn't they have figured out a more convenient location? I mean, it would be a little odd at the Walmart "Are you a Jew?" "Why sure, just looky here." There must be a better method. And, as Evan noted, this is a practice that is hardly unique to Judaism. It's been done in numerous primitive cultures for centuries. And I STILL think it's an ignorant, superstitious act that says more about the inhibitions and fear humands inately have about sex, than it does about any god.

3-cents, Re:" Part of the goal FYI, was because the GI bill paid tuition at accredited colleges for veterans, they wanted some of that money for veterans who entered the way corps." It never ceases to amaze me how utterly mercenary the whole organization of TWI was/is. Another juicy tidbit...

Oh, but we will be parting with $36/ea. this coming February to see the "Kodo Drummers". For the uninitiated, this is a group of young Japanese men who dedicate their lives to playing drums for a few years. They live in a commune of sorts, and do nothing but play the drums day in, day out. In performance they wear nothing but a Sumo-sort of g-string and a headband. And they work themselves half to death by beating those drums with clubs. To say it's an energetic performance would be a ridiculous understatement. I've only seen them on T.V. before, but was seriously impressed. Looking forward to that...

Gawddam, you guys like to part with a lot a dough. Suzie and I saw Boz Scaggs at the pier in Seattle (there couldn't be a better venue) for $28./ea. And a great show, at that. Normally we see some jazz act at "Dimitrios Jazz Alley", the top Seattle jazz club. Real cozy place where you sit a few feet from the performer and can talk with them after - or even have a drink with them (as I did with Mose Allison). We've seen some great talent there, Ray Brown, Horace Silver, Spiro Gyra, Manhattan Transfer, Ahmad Jamal, Karin Allison, Marian McPartlan, Leo Kottke, and lots of others. We've never paid more than $25. for a seat. And these are actual musicians (as opposed to being overhyped celebes with a guitar pick for a penis). I'm with mstar on this one. Give me a small venue where you can actually see the performer (and hear them) any day. The "get mashed in the crowd to see the rockstar" days are over for me - longsince...

Call it what you want, it's still ritual genital mutilation. Funny, when it's done to little girls in Africa we all wring our hands and bemoan the fact that those peoples are so superstitious and barbaric. When it's mentioned in THE BIBLE, it's somehow an inscrutable act of holy devotion. Hey, maybe it is just what it seems like. An act of an ignorant and superstitious people to try to curry favor with an unknowable god.

And for anyone who's interested, here's a great primer on "Critical Thinking": http://www.skepdic.com/refuge/ctlessons.html Some short lessons on the basics of how it's done (and NOT done). Gawd, is the internet amazing 'er what?