George Aar

Of late we've been tormented with a revival of an old Edward R. Murrow serial "This I Believe" on NPR. The most recent contribution to this often ponderous, sometimes vapid helping of drivel I found to be quite refreshing. Take a look at Penn Jillette's effort: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557

Belle, Here's a quote from a great humanitarian of our time (me), "Free thought is not a hallmark of anyone with a religious mindset."

Well, not sure anybody gives a flip anymore, but the charge for the class was jumped to $200. the year I went W.O.W. the first time (1979-80). Yeah, that made for a swell time. You think selling religion is a tough gig when it's $100.? No, we never "got a class together" that year or the next time I went W.O.W. either. My believing? Yeah, I 'spose. That musta been it...

Linda, Don't know about the B6 therapy. Never tried it. or heard of it. The other side of the squishy "alternative" side of medicine is that you'll seem to get results when, in fact, you may just be experiencing a coincidental subsiding of symptoms or other anomaly that gives you the - possibly false - impression that your "treatment" is working. Such was the case with my carpal tunnel. I went over 25 years with a misdiagnosis from an Osteopath, then got "ministered" to by "believers" on a couple of occasions, then a vitamin and herb regimen prescribed by a "naturopath", then - FINALLY - I went to a medical doctor (HORRORS!) and got a REAL diagnosis. I was sent to a plastic surgeon who specialized in carpal tunnel surgery and he told me that I was tied for being the worst case he'd ever seen in some 30 years of practice. I did a LOT of damage by pursuing the freeze-dried granola school of medicine as opposed to seeking the counsel of those that actually HAVE some medical training. But the morning after my surgery - both hands all bandaged up - I felt better than I had in 25 years. It would have called it miraculous, save there were very down to earth, thoroughly understood reasons for the healing - non of which involved invoking invisible forces from the beyond or beckoning Mother Earth to sooth my ailments with magic herbs. But then, YMMV.

Linda, Is this the same "Naturopath" who would do a hair analysis on everybody and always find that they had "Aluminum poisoning"? Yah, O.K. fine...

I've been there, done that when it comes to carpal tunnel, tennis elbow, tendonitis (knuckles, wrists, and as I mentioned, elbows). So I can empathize a bit. Unless some radical, new procedure has developed in the last year or two. there's not a lot that can be done about tendonitis - other than preventing it to begin with. Being as it's "white tissue" damage, there's not a lot of bloodflow to the damaged area. So, as a result, healing can be quite slow in coming. The only thing I can recommend is to keep your wrists tightly wrapped to avoid strain on the tendons as much as possible. If you feel the characteristic pain coming on, stop whatever you're doing and attack it from a different angle. That's what I've learned to do to keep from hurting the tendons to begin with. I've done it often enough that I recognize the pain in my elbow or knuckles and have learned to avoid the particular movement that aggravates the problem. Sorry, that's about all I know about it...

No doubt that Lee and Grant were dedicated, honorable men. But they were on opposing sides of a stuggle, both convinced that they were instruments in the hand of The Almighty (as was Lincoln) and very much set on the destruction of one another. And in the process managed to help kill off several hundred thousand of their fellow citizens. Maybe it's just me, but I find that to be somewhat ironic, given that the Bible is so often regarded as some sort of roadmap to God's love and contains the words of The Prince of Peace himself. One could hope that whatever guidance they derived from "the Good Book" is not as widely accepted today... Oh, and yes, Snopes does have an "agenda"! How dare they put that sort of stuff on the internet when I've grown so comfortable with my urban myths!

I find it interesting that both Robert E. Lee and Ulysses S. Grant both laud the Bible for it's accuracy and wisdom and yet these two were both principal players in the worst bloodletting slaughter in American History. Obviously, it worked out real well for them...

Well, now that the thread has had it's run, I guess I'll give my opinion. Personally I think the "why" of religion is all about control. Life can be a scary place at times. And there's so much unknown, and, especially in our ancestors times, lots of dark and forboding places and even more frightening and heartbreaking events. Disease (entirely misunderstood until modern times), pestilence, starvation, predation, storms, earthquakes, calamities of all sorts were - and are - commonplace. Wouldn't it be nice if we had an invisible force that could fight for us? Help us out when things go wrong? Well, sure. That would be wonderful. So, we made one. Well, not one, but many thousands of these superfriends. Yeah, they're entirely ineffective at doing much of anything, but are you going to be the one to question that when you're heading out of the cave for the mastodon hunt? I think not. So that's all we have to do. Cook up an invisible, unknowable, unpercievable super ally who must be placated quite regularly. Make the consequences for NOT playing the game absolutely horrendous and the supposed benefits literally heavenly. Now who would dare NOT believe? Then add to that mix the element of a special class of people who become the mediators for this invisible friend, who garner great acclaim and status - and material abundance - for doing this mediating. Now you have a portion of the civilization with power and control who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, and will do most anything to keep the rest of us in compliance. And there you have it, religion. You're welcome to play if you like. You'll pardon me if I choose not to...

Well, I FINALLY saw this today. Yeah, it was kinda thought provoking. I loved the juxtapostion of stereotypes and the like, but the thought struck me about halfway through that this is a peculiarly Yuppified vision of the world. Yeah, there's down-and-outers and gutter folk, but it seems as if they are the concoctions of a decidely upper-middle-class vision. It tried real hard to be down and dirty, reality-based, in-your-face kinda film noirish commentary, but it still betrayed it's Belle Aire roots. So, see it for sure, but I'm not entirely satisfied with where it goes or how it handles things. It's odd...

Sudo, Yeah, it would seem that The Almighty has some serious self-esteem issues. I mean, I'm all for demanding a little well -deserved respect, but the "Love me or burn in Hell" tactic is a might heavyhanded, no? I'm also concerned with God's apparent spendthrift ways. Geeze, He's ALWAYS short of cash, and man, this time it's desperate. If He doesn't get some serious dough real soon - no questions asked - there'll be no telling how many cute kids He'll have to kill off. Remind me again, just what is the appeal of all this stuff?

I dunno, I can't get much worked up over it. Dispatch the critter quickly and cleanly and don't let them suffer. After that, I dunno, Bon appetit? I've eaten just about everything mentioned here except the rattlesnake. It was all good. Alligator po' boys were particularly tastey. I even had whale in Japan once (uh, is that politically correct?). Meat's meat, long as it isn't anybody I know, soups on!

Mark, RE:"A person who is terminally skeptical, in my past experience, just cannot be convinced." I let this line slip by me before. Do I detect maybe just a whiff of antipathy towards those with a skeptical mindset? I think skeptics get a bad rap in general. Is there something wrong with needing proof before you'll believe somthing? Personally I think skepticism is one of man's higher virtues. Without even working up a sweat, I can think of worlds of heartache and misery that could have been avoided had people been encouraged to have even a modicum of skepticism. Suicide bombers, David Koresh et al, and Jonestown being only a few examples. And just why is it that Almighty God would prefer His followers to be gullible? Does He have a softspot in His heart for chumps? I dunno... And as far as being "convinced" goes, hey, I can be convinced. I'm convinced that there's no such thing as Alien Abductions, Loch Ness Monsters, or a vast array of conspirators who shot JFK. I'm also pretty sure that the earth revolves around the sun, smoking is a major cause of all sorts of medical problems, and that most well-endowed actresses have had "boob jobs". Why? Because that seems to be where the preponderance of evidence leads. What's wrong with demanding evidence? Does it make one into a knuckle-draggin Neanderthal? I think not...

Cathy, I love the poster! Gee, a Polish version of a Japanes interpretation of a Shakespearian play. Talk about cultural diversity. Anyway, it got late, and I fell asleep about 15 minutes into the movie. - Dame dedanga! - I hope it's on again soon. Kurasawa is the greatest....

Oooo, I'd love to make a post now, but "Kagemusha" is on T.V. Honto ne! Chotto mata kudasai!

Going back a few posts here: Oak, O.K., I'll give you that you can know what you're thinking at any given time without utilizing any systematized method to any great degree. But beyond that, I can't think of anything that we can "KNOW" without the aforementioned criteria. We can suspect, have a theory about, or even be thoroughly persuaded about something, but if we can't record it, analyze it, and reproduce it, we don't KNOW it, do we? Even historical events, do we really KNOW what happened in the past? Yeah, we can be pretty confident about certain things, but "know"? I don't think so... Anyway, you two are doing fine all by yourselves, carry on...

Kathy, I follow your reasoning, though I can't relate to your particular experience. This is why such discussions always get so difficult. People have tremendously strong emotions connected with it. Some more than others. Personally, I've tried to "get right" with the Lord on a few occasions in my life, but never with any notable results whatever. I've had a couple of times where I pleaded with God to show me something, help me, thow me a lifeline, whatever, but all I ever got were crickets chirping. Maybe I'm his redhaired stepchild? And then there's the "But it's also worked at disproving anything that can't be seen or felt" aspect of science. To which I say "Hurrah!" How else can we find anything out FOR SURE? If it can't be demonstrated, documented, and REPEATED, how can we know anything? And Socks, re:" my cat's hitting 70 + years and still cares about how his fur looks when he goes out" How can I argue anyone whose mind works like that?

" I didn't say God I said religion! And science with it's straining out all spiritual matters has hurt it just as much!" Well, as they say in California "Luv YA!", but I just don't agree. We still haven't proved that there even IS a God yet. I know, I know, if you have that belief from childhood you pretty much take it as a given, but... And science has hurt? Could you give me some specifics? What has raised man out of caves and mud and put him in airliners, listening to Wagner on stereophonic headphones, while sipping a carefully crafted Pinot Noir, while heading for a weekend in Bali? All the while being protected from disease with a regimen of vaccines? What made it possible for 2 or 3 percent of the population to feed everyone? What reduced infant mortality from double digits to a fraction of a per cent in less than a century? What raised the life expectancy from 28 to 78 since the middle ages? What gave us air conditioning, central heating, waterproofing, insulation, and Cheez Whiz? Well, it wasn't religious folks hell-bent on spending their time locked in intercessory prayer, or pseudo scientists trying to contact your dead relatives, or spiritual "guides", or shaman, or alternative medicine practitioners. It was people doing good science, or their best effort at it. Yeah, science has also given us the two-edged sword of nuclear power :blink: and numerous other dubious "advancements", but the overall effect has been one of tremendously improving the quality of life for the entire world. Outside of the Sistene Chapel and Handel's "Messiah", what has religion really done for mankind? Well, other than make us feel guilty...

Sirguess, Re: " better sex, better food, better clothes, better tools, better community, better survival rate, deeper friendships, a sense of safety, more children, more industrious and innovative (and all because we more or less agreed on the same mythic "other" God-father figure for this inherited exclusive family-ness). Without a few thousand years of this, “the brotherhood,” we would have never moved into our more rational era." I couldn't disagree more. I don't think religion had a DAMNED thing to do with any of that. In fact, it seems to me that if anything, religion retarded any such developments. It was SCIENCE, the innate curious nature, the questioning of how things worked, that brought about technological advancement. The reason the Dark Ages were dark wasn't because of a lack of religion. It was the curtailment of independant thinking and scientific inguiry. So we stayed huddled in filthy, disease-ridden shacks and prayed the rosary everyday and shambled off to mass every week and never questioned what the pope said, and there we stayed. Until finally we were able to shake off the blinders, and men like Newton, Da Vinci , Descartes, and a few others started thinking again. That's what brought about the Renaisance, thinking, inquiry, experimentation, SCIENCE, that led us out of the superstitious, hopelessly backward, darkness towards a quality of life that the authors of the Bible couldn't dream of. I've got more along these lines, but I've actually got a job to go to, so I'll spare you...

Socks, Well, yeah, I made my mind up quite some time ago as regards religion. Not to say that I'm completely closed off to the notion, but it'd take some real PR work to get me back in the fold... And, yes, I know that the study was seriously skewed, but just how is it that one can quantify and categorize something as squishy as religious thought? Anyway, the biggest issue for me is that religion is simply oversold. It's never said that "Jesus will make your life somewhat more bearable, generally speaking!" or "You'll find a modicum of comfort and escape by going to church!" No, it's always in the superlative: "PEACE LIKE A RIVER!" "JOY LIKE A FOUNTAIN!" "THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE!" etc. It was never like that for me. Not ever. Not once. Just didn't happen. I kinda got to feeling like back when I was a kid and everybody was dropping acid. It was always "WOW! That was FAROUT!" "Man, that was the coolest trip ever!" So I tried it - several times - and all I ever got was seriously freaked out. Never cool, never farout, just really screwed up. Likewise with my forays into religion. Lots of (for me) empty promises but damned little of the enlightenment I was promised. I just got really screwed up behind it all, trying my damndest to make sense of the incomprehensible. So, yeah, I've got a chip on my shoulder to a certain extent, and I don't much care who knows it. I don't care for religion. But I'm still mystified at how the faithful can still be swayed. I really don't understand. I don't get it when somebody becomes infatuated with astrology, Krishna Consciousness, Christianity, or alternative medicine. After one has tasted the fruit, taken the test drive, and seen all the warts (is that enough analogies?) how do you keep coming back? Gawd, don't you ever just get tired of the same ol crap? To me religion is an empty box. It holds nothing more than what one puts in it. If you're convinced you'll find fulfillment, purpose, love, joy, peace, I think maybe you will, at least to an extent. But as far as it changing your life, I've just never seen it, in my life or anyone else's. Good people remain so, as do the jerks. Maybe it's MY point of view?

I wonder, Has anybody glanced at the study I posted (other than Sudo)? I'd be interested in the reactions of those with a religious mindset to the basic focus of the study. I.E. that statistically the most relgious of countries do not exhibit greater charity, humanity, love, or kindness than those that are less apt to embrace faith in an invisible overlord. Quite the contrary, in fact. I mean, this was published in the L.A. Times and what was the reaction from all the devout followers of whoever? Crickets chirping... Huh? Isn't one of the main selling points of religion that it will clean you all up, reform your bad habits, give you a reason for living, fill you with love, etc.? If someone comes along with evidence to refute all of that, wouldn't it rile you up a bit? I dunno... Personally I came to the point, quite some time back, where I realized that religion (and the Bible specifically) didn't make anywhere near the sense that simple agnosticism did. I got so tired of the mental gymnastics I had to do everyday to maintain my belief, and finally threw in the towel. Vengeful God committing mass genocide (quite frequently, BTW), talking mules (Francis anyone?), arks full of animals, miraculous healings, rabbits that chew their cud (they don't BTW), and all of the supposed "faithfulness" of The Almighty, but without a trace of actual evidence that any of it actually happened. Ever wonder why Almighty God, even though he claims to be "ALWAYS faithful" and a firm rock we can depend on, yada, yada, never does anything for you like he claims? Pray for the sick, they die, give of you abundance so you can continue to prosper, you go broke, depend on HIM for peace, peace of mind, harmony in the home, hell, any of the supposed goodies that a believer is supposed to be blessed with, and, when it doesn't happen, what do you get? A logical explanation? Hell no. You get spin control. "Well, it's by God's timetable", "You aren't walking in love", "We can't question the mind of God", and other such tripe. Gawd damn, it's so much more logical - and "fits" so much better with reality - to view life as happening outside the purview of any loving, omnipotent creator. And so much easier on one's brain, not having to make what goes on in real life conform with the musings of an ancient and ignorant people. But, as they say, your mileage may vary...

I found this study (recently published in the L.A. Times) to be rather enlightening: http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/pdf/2005-11.pdf (Don't be intimidated by the apparent length of it, the last half is simply graphs and footnotes) So the question comes to mind, just what is it that those who are religiously disposed actually "get" out of their faith? Does it make you a better person? More at peace? More loving? More productive? More charitable? What? Worshipping as I do, at the altar of pragmatism, I'm not much inclined to study the Bible anymore, or pray, or make any sort of supplications to a being that may well not even exist. It never did anything for me in the past, and I don't see that pattern changing anytime soon so... But the question still lingers, what is it about one's faith that keeps them coming back? From my perspective I can't see as anyone has had anymore dramatic input from The Almighty than I have. But then, this sort of thing is really subjective. So, what is it? What is it about your beliefs that keep you at it?

Rascal, The year was '79/'80. IIRC this happened around January or February. Not real sure now. Been almost 26 years now (!). And just what the hey was somebody as unstable as this corps gimp was doing in charge of 7 other people? That was the real crime. Sending off unsuspecting sheep to be subjected to the actions of a whackjob like that. And then for the ministry to hush the whole incident up and pretend that all was sweetness and light when we got back to New Knoxville. Could it get anymore dishonest? And this was hardly the only such incident. What a morally bankrupt institution. Utterly disgusting...

Sorry, I'm a bit late to this thread, Yeah, I knew about the murder in Alexander City, Al. One of the guys in the "family" was - it seemed to me from my brief contact with him (W.O.W. days and such) - trying real hard to make the dubious "priniciples" of WayWorld really work in his life. He was an innocent in so many ways, and vainly trying to actually live the way the insane conman from New Knoxville had instructed. At least, that was my impression of him. Anyway, the next thing I'd heard about him (after maybe one-too-many beers with a corps FC) was that he'd been shot by the interim corps FC in some miserable little mobile home that all eight of the "branch" were forced to live in. Kinda severe reproof, no? So, two less W.O.W.s were present at the "homecoming" the following summer. One was in jail, and the other in a grave. The careful observer will note that there were no announcements of this incident at the following ROA or anywhere at all, for that matter. And what was the Limb Leader's response to all of this? Why, he beseeched the Almighty to lift his hand of blessing off of Alexander City! Yeah, that'll show that 'ol Devil! This is what happens when superstition is given preeminence in one's mind, and thoughtful skepticism is shunned. Gawd, the foolishness and harm we put up with in the name of some bogus theology...

Socks, Sheesh, when Neil Diamond did it, it was just barely humane. I'm reminded of Judy Garland's last few performances, and I must admit, Yes, Virginia, evil does exist...