George Aar

Geeze, I'm not quite sure if I should weigh in here or not. At the risk of being called a "faith blaster" or other epithet, I've gotta say, it doesn't look good for there being an all-knowing, all powerful, all-loving, benevolent diety "out there". Consider, if statistics are correct, 25 to 30 thousand innocent children died yesterday from such incurable ailments as diarhea, measles, malnutrition, and various parasites. Don't you suppose their mothers spent some time turning to The Almighty for help? You think maybe they pleaded, begged, wailed, moaned, and beseeched some invisible force to save their child? I think that's a safe bet. Yet they died anyway. Or how about the Jews and other undesireables that were exterminated like so many rats during WWII? You think maybe they prayed to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to help them? I'll bet it was incessant prayers, at least for awhile. Yet, again, no help came. How many times have we heard of good, decent people who have some horrendous event destroy their lives? It's certainly not uncommon. And then what do we hear from the religious community? Well, spin, mostly. Near as I can tell. It's gotten pretty hard for me to reconcile the supposed attributes of the loving Almighty God of the NT with what happens in real life. Looky, either He's omnipotent and loving, or He's not. If He can't intervene in some situation because of this or that, well, then He's not omnipotent. Or if He chooses not to intervene because of this or that, well, then He's not loving now is He? Unless we concoct some bizarro world where love equals neglect or power equals impotence, which is what I saw entirely too much of with the Bible-thumper crowd. But to get back to your question "Assume for a moment..." well, isn't that the way we should have really started out in our spiritual quest? Why should we assume from the outset that there IS a God? How can you come to any logical conclusion by starting out with such an outrageous a-priori assumption? But that's what we've always done, then get into the arguments of "Well, prove that He doesn't!" and other such illogic. Sigh... So, yeah, maybe it's a bummer to think that we're not going to float around forever with all of our friends singing "Cum By Yah". But also, it puts to rest any ridiculous notions of blowing oneself up because you think you'll be reincarnated to frolic with 72 virgins forever too. Life becomes more precious because you realize that this most likely is all we've got. We've only got this chance to live, love, and be decent to one another, and funerals really ARE final, so we'd best do the best we can with what we've got...

Boy, aren't we the lively lot, though? Myself, I'll be drowning my sorrows in a snifter or two of Courvousier, and ponder a year gone wrong. BTW, that's a great read Jim. Really interesting stuff. I never have done the New Year's thing. Not quite sure how it's even supposed to work. What, you get drunk and then do the bump and grind with somebody? I heard that's how it goes. Maybe I'll try it sometime...

And if you'd REALLY like to do some research, and not just shore up notions that you've already accepted, maybe spend some time reading something other than Bible-related dogma. I'd suggest A DEMON-HAUNTED WORLD by Carl Sagan for starters. Some great insights, put forth in very understandable terms...

A few favorites of mine, in no particular order: "Dr. Strangelove", maybe the best movie ever made. An absolutely devastatingly wicked satire. No doubt Kubrick's and Seller's best work. "Bodyheat" - Film noir at it's finest. You'll have to watch it at least twice to figure it all out. Phenomenal supporting cast (Micky Rourke was fabulous as was Ted Danson). "Reds" - Warren Beatty's epic about Jack Reed and the Russian Communist revolution. "Sandakan Hachibanshokan Bohkyo " A Japanese film of the mid 70s. Probably the most physically beautiful film I've ever seen. A bit heavy-handed at times, but still a great flick. That should hold you for awhile. I'll think of some more...

Belle, I got an adjustable filter for mine. I think Lowes carries them. They have a plastic framework and a woven, reuseable filter element that you cut to size and then fiddle around with the plastic frame to fit. I've used the one I have for 4 or 5 years now with no problems. Fairly inexpensive too. And the filter is supposed to be "hypoallergenic" or somesuch too...

Uh, no. But then, I was never much good at hearing voices...

Yeah, I've always thought that The Almighty must have His nose out of joint for anyone outside of the western world, as there aren't a whole lot of Christians elsewhere. Maybe He had a bad experience with wasabi?

Belle, Yeah, they might have changed my mind a bit. Still pretty skeptical though. I mean, it's not like nobody's ever studied The Bible before. And it's not like all sorts of new material has just been found. Near as I know, at least for the New Testament, it's the same 'ol stuff that theologians have been moldering around with for years. So how's come this guy has found out all this hitherto unknown wisdom of the ages? I hope he doesn't have a class to sign up for...

Well, here's the reviews from the "Amazon" readers (there's 25 currently): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006073817...glance&n=283155 They seem to like it pretty well...

I was O.K. with it until I got to the line "Until now, that is." So the really smart guy is going to straighten us all out again, eh? Sorry, Belle, don't know nuthin' 'bout the book, but the flyleaf notes are already giving me the jitters...

O.K., my last try... "air is there believe it or not your life is there wether i believe it or not" Absolutely, and NOBODY is disputing that, near as I can tell. So why ask the question? Have you ever even HEARD of anybody who doesn't believe in air? Or life? I guess I just don't get it. It strikes me as just silly. Trying to equate invisible things to spiritual is a stretch as well. Air and life can still be detected with the five senses. The fact that you can't sense them [/i]visually is hardly profound. There's lots of things I can't smell, or hear, or touch, but I still believe in them, because they CAN be sensed. Bah, I on a fool's errand here, trying to reason with someone who seems bound and determined to reject any such... And if you could explain what you mean by a "boundless heart", MAYBE we could discuss it. As it stands, well, I've already explained my position on that clearly enough, I think. There ya go, it's all yours from here on...

No CM, I don't think we're even talking the same language. There's obviously a huge disconnect between what we say and what the other perceives (especially so with Mr. SGaL, whose verbose prose I NEVER understand). Maybe we exist on different ethereal planes? Looky, EVERYBODY with a moderately functioning brain believes that we have AIR. What's not to believe? Likewise with life. We all have one, more or less. Where do you get the notion that there are some who DON'T? And, as was pointed out earlier, "the boundless heart" or "unbinding" a bound up one (would Metamucil help with that?) is meaningless blather. Very poetic, but it communicates nothing. So, what I got out of your post (and I think others of a skeptical bent got as well) was simply another smear, another swipe at the way I think. "How can you NOT believe in the stuff that I do?" "Don't you have any heart?" "Has the Devil blinded you?" "Are you so out of touch with the important spiritual stuff all around you that you can't see what I do?" - That's what I read in you initial post. Was I so far off?

And might I add to Garth's post a bit, The clear implication of the title of the thread is that - not only is CM addressing the unbelievers - but there is something WRONG with them. They don't believe what he does. How can they not? What's WRONG with them anyway? Well, maybe nothing. Maybe his criteria for what constitutes a plausible belief is what's ailing. And Socks, I gotta disagree with you re: the Penn and Teller clip. I thought it was pretty well thought out. Bombastic and profane, fer sure, but definitely food for thought. The best line I heard in the show was from Michael Shermer "Smart people are very good at rationalizing things they came to believe for non-smart reasons." Explained a lot for me. Oh, and BTW, if religion and Godly worship and all that are so vital to a good, healthy, fulfilling life and all, why is it that life expectancy was only 28 yrs. in the time of Christ and is in the mid-70s today? Have we gotten that much more holy, closer to God, over the centuries? And all throught the Dark Ages - even though people were building cathedrals and attending mass and paying obeisance to The Almighty, nothing improved. But come the renaissance, and a rebirth of scientific thought and inquiry, lo and behold our quality and length of life improves exponentially. Gosh, I wonder why that is? Anyway, carry on...

Ron, About your steering wheel: 1(888)828-3276 If they don't have one, they don't exist...

My wish is to never have another one like yesterday. Come to think of it, maybe just never have another one...

David, Thanks for the sentiments. I really do appreciate it. I realize that my lot in life is hardly the worst around, but ocassionally it gets the better of me. I also know that there's lots of guys who've been down the same road I'm on (you, me, Ron, Raf just in this thread). I think we deserved better. But then, ... I would... Been thinking about going back to Minniesohda this spring for some fishing (maybe just after ice-out). You ever put down your fiddle long enough to pick up a fly rod? Lake Vermillion northerns maybe? Not even a lump of coal Raf? That's harsh...

Well, I got a calendar. That and a huge load of heartache, an even more generous portion than last year. It just keeps getting better and better. $%^& the holidays...

Sudo, I was stewing myself in a pot of self-pity, but Lordamightyno, who gives me a call but the Memphis Deacon hisself. While I don't begin to pretend thinking that my holiday phobia is going to subside anytime, I sure appreciate the call the and the sentiments. So may I say (in my highest and sqeakiest voice) "God bless us, everyone!", or something like that.

Irisheyes, Jeezus Gawd, are we having a contest to see who can be the MOST condescending? Get a grip already, not everyone still subscribes to the idea of there being an invisible friend, floating around in space, looking benevolently down upon us (uh, never actually DOING anything, not so as you'd notice anyway, just looking - oh, and expecting unquestioning obeisance). In reality though, CM did start it. His opening salvo in this thread actually says (at least the way I read it) "Hey boneheads, how can you be so goddammed stupid to not believe the same stuff I do?(!)" Yes, he phrased it a little more politely, but that's the essence of it, no? But, being as it is the holiday season, and one that some people actually enjoy, I guess I'll be nice and not say what I really think. Enjoy it while you can, tomorrow may be real B.S., you never know. And there just might NOT be some sort of ethereal, eternal reward for your lifetime of dedication and worship of the unknowable. Like it or not THAT is at least a possibility... Cheers...

Yeah, what is the point? Some folks have found a life out here beyond superstition. It works pretty well for the ones I know. Why is that a problem? I have no issue with the air I breath, the life I live, but I'm a little uncertain about the "boundlessness" of the human heart. I've seen some definite boundaries there...

This one has been on my "things to read" list for awhile now. Anybody read this one? http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=316580&page=1

Ah, Google to the rescue (uh, sort of), http://www.carlysimon.com/vain/vain.htm

Moony, Re:"At the time, there was rumor that the song was about her and Jagger" I thought it was supposed to be about Warren Beatty. Can't remember where I heard that now, but...

And if I might add to Evan's post, In order for it to "work" PFAL needed the support system of the whole MLM scheme which was TWI. "The Class" itself, when viewed without the idealism, inexperience, and community supplied "blinders" of our youth, is pretty tepid material at best. What really made it seem noteworthy was the cast of cheerleaders continually touting the miraculousness of what would have been - were it not for their efforts - a really dreary 32 hours of blather... If you think that "The Class" is still some great kinda stuff, I'd submit that you need to get out more...

Making a brief entrance I says to Bluzeman's querie: Why that's Mr. Lips hisself, ain't it?