George Aar

Keep your eye out for one with front and rear suspension. No sense saving money on a bike if you're going to end up doing your body some expensive damage. They tend to be a bit heavier, but they're so much nicer to ride and easier on your bones...

I can't speak for everybody, but personally it's the constant wearing away at me that eventually gets me to change me mind. I put things on the back burner of my brain and let them simmer. They're always there, slowly cooking. After a long-enough period whatever makes the most sense to me usually (hopefully) wins out. With my "spiritual" beliefs, it was a constant nagging in the back of my head. The tenets of Christianity just didn't make much sense. Why would God want to set things in motion the way he did? What good does sacrificing His Son do? How could somebody else dying make up for things I did wrong? If He loves us so much why doesn't He make it evident? Why is understanding His will soooooooooooo complicated? Eventually, common sense won out and I tossed the silly, childish notions of having an invisible friend. I don't think epiphanies are as common as just gradual progressions. At least that's how my head works.

Yeah Allan, I know that's how the believer crowd likes to dress it up - "pleasure or pressure". That way you can conveniently pat yourself on the back for withstanding same (not like those lesser folk who caved), and simultaneously reinforce those same beliefs, despite yet getting any sort of evidence that they're real. Personally though, when I reverted to my native agnosticism, it was neither a particularly pleasureable or pressured departure. Just a progressive dwindling of any belief in unsubstantiated fables. Life continued on pretty much the same as it had during my "believer" mode. I just didn't have to go to the goddam meetings anymore...

Mo, I first remember becoming burnt out on religion at about age 5 or 6. I remember looking in the "sanctuary" at our local Lutheran church and thinking to myself "man, this sucks" or words to that effect. Eight or ten years in a Methodist (Reformed) Church didn't help my attitude any. Then WayWorld came along with all sorts of promises of manna from heaven and all sorts of miraculous stuff. And, well, you know how that turned out. I also had a bit of exposure to the Mormons, being as how the PNW is sorta their territory, but, sorry to say, wasn't particularly taken with their dogma either. But as they say, YMMV...

I think maybe this one has my name on it? To give you the short answer: No, I didn't see a lot of "miraculous" stuff. And, yeah, I "spoke in tongues", so what? Do you really know what you're doing when you do that? The Bible is certainly vague enough in that regard. Yeah, I know Wierwille had it all figured out and all the scriptures showed it so clearly, yada, yada. But where is the verse that says "You move your lips, your mouth, YOU do the speaking!" etc.? And where's the verse that says that - once you get over you inhibitions and start blurting out some gibberish - that that is an actual language being supplied by God? And furthermore, why the hell would an all-knowing god want his people to even DO such a bizarre thing? Yeah, I know, we can't ask those kind of questions, not our job and all that... So agnosticism seemed like the only reasonable choice to me. I went on for years, praying, believing, studying and fellowhshipping, just like a good believer should, but I never saw any benefit from it. I prayed, I never got so much as a "hello" in return. I "believed", never saw anything come of it. I fellowshipped, only to wind up getting a good foot-chewing now and then - for no particular reason. There was no discernable evidence that there was an Almighty God, or even of half-assed god for that matter. What I DID see in my "Christian" period was a lot of desperate people. People desperate to find some sort of evidence that they're not going to really die, but that they're going to get to live on and on. And desperate for comfort, for reassurance. So, if the "miraculous" didn't happen, they helped it along a little bit. Everyday happenings and the odd coincidence took on the attributes of divine intervention. Parking spaces at the front door of the mall, a child recovering from a cold, a promotion at work, and such like all became fodder for the "looky what God did for me" testimonies. Eventually I started to view all of it with a very jaundiced eye. Why would such a powerful God need to have his effects measured with a micrometer? You sure don't see THAT in THE BIBLE. And for that matter, why should we lend any credence to The Bible at all? And if we should, then which version? There's literally THOUSANDS of them. And why would Almighty GOD want to be so obtuse about WHAT his word actually is? Just a few of the questions that finally pushed me over the edge. And now I find - miraculously - that things make MUCH more sense if I take off the "God" glasses and just view them as they REALLY are. Gosh, what a concept...

Are we living in the "best" of all possible worlds? How the hell could we know that? All I know is that it's the only one we've got, we should treat it thoughtfully. Do I give in non-religious venues? Exclusively. I'll be damned if I want to build one more monument to superstition, or spread same to the "unwashed" heathen. BTW, the trifecta that you copied pretty much follows the same reasoning I used when I reverted to agnosticism. I.e.: an "all loving", "omniscient", "all powerful", and "omnipresent" god cannot be made to conform to the reality we encounter everyday. So, we can either toss the notion as childish fantasy, OR become adept spin-doctors for the Almighty. I tired of the later role...

O.K., since experiences are "dangerous" (for others anyway), I guess we need to throw out a couple of thousand years of scientific and technological advances and go back to cave dwelling and the hunter/gatherer lifestyle.

I've got several that I use as well. This one's pretty good: http://skepdic.com/ As is this one: http://www.skeptic.org.uk/ And this one: http://www.skepticnews.com/ And for "spiritual" matters in particular I find this one helpful: http://www.catalaw.com/detox/detox.shtml?results

I second that notion Mr. Odd. The Vickster was one sick mutha. The idea of regret or contrition - or even a modicum of honesty - NEVER entered his mind, it would seem. He DID love to cry the crocodile tears and blubber about how humble he was though. THAT'S what the epitaph is REALLY all about IMNSHO...

And what if your "vantage point" is nothing more than a delusion? You have no way to corroborate or - God forbid - prove your observations - after all the senses are not to be trusted.

Isn't this what always happens when we suspend our rational thoughts in deference to fables? Be it Medieval crusaders, Salem witch hunters, the Taliban, al qaeda, whatever the group, when you abandon reason and embrace unsupported nonsense, all manner of less-than-wonderful stuff is going to result. Gawd, the paranoia was sooo ridiculous. I remember Corps Week '86 being like the aftermath of an atomic bomb. People everywhere walking around absolutely shell-shocked. In retrospect I only find it silly - and maybe mildly amusing... (and yes, I knew several people that "carried" all the time at Wayworld. It was commonly known amongst most all the staff, IIRC)

Mo, First platter of ribs is on me...

Two words, Duct tape

Oh, GAWD, Johnur, I had no idea how lost in WayThink you still are. Just to help out, There probably is no God, no devil, and no holy writ of some diviine source. Blathering on about what superstition is more "accurate" almost approaches insanity, IMNSHO. Religion ALWAYS has to denigrate what we experience over what it's dogma says, because our experiences will SELDOM agree with the dogma. I.E. - Jesus DOESN'T "walk with me and talk with me", God DOESN"T supply all our need, and the sick often remain sick, the dead ALWAYS remain dead, despite what we may choose to believe. And Jesus may "love the little children", but he's got a damn peculiar way of showing it (being as 25 or 30 thousand of them died yesterday, if it was a typical day). So, there you have it. There's no God, no Jesus floating on a cloud looking benignly down upon us, and no perky, ethereal, afterlife where things are finally gonna be good for us. Anything you want done, you'll need to do yourself, or, hopefully, get someone to help. Today is all we've got for sure, make the most of it. If there is a God "out there" I'm quite confidant He'll get along fine without my supplications and worship. Damn, religion is just so farking silly...

Having just spent 11 weeks wrangling with a cadre of minor bureaucrats in a local office, just so I could do my damn job, you can guess which half of the argument I side with. And also, having just gotten my son his learners permit at the DMV, I have to wonder - is there anything the government does that couldn't be handled better, and more efficiently, by a moderately intelligent wino? Anyway, kudos to Malone...

OR, we could realize that with some 5,000 different renditions of The Bible, varying in meaning from "slight" to "extreme" that there's never going to be a definitive "WORD OF GOD". Furthermore that it's pretty unlikely that an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful god would have ever set up a method to make Himself known to His creation that is so frought with peril and errors. Then, we could just get on with living life, trying to be moderately decent to each other, without yet another manufactured chism to divide us and engender strife. But, whaddu I know? I guess arguing over whose god is the strongest is more fun (not to mention all the "unbelievers" we can damn to hell)... O.K., I've done my "witnessing" for today...

Freelady, I get the impression that you feel "The Class" is somewhat akin to those chain letters we get every now and then. You know, the ones with some innocuous prayer and a guarantee that - if you don't break the chain all sorts of good stuff will happen to you. Personally, all I saw in my 15 years of obeisance to the dictates of said class was: a new address every year or so, a different group of "friends" every year or so, who really never got to know me (or I them), a different job every year or so, no roots, no sense of community, no REAL family life, no nuthin'. Just a lot of mindless dedication to someone else's supposed "goals". To summarize my feelings about PFAL content, well, it's pretty basic Bible study sort of fare with few provocative entries and a lot of REALLY questionable "principles". I.E. - "The Law of Believing", which is utter nonsense (yes, you may quote me on that), "The Law of Giving and Receiving" (ditto), the "principle" of "receive, retain, release" (again, more nonsense), and the topper was the parlor trick of "Speaking in tongues" (BLATANT B.S.) which, contrary to Mr. Wierwille's adomnition, IS gibberish. And in the pursuit of all things Holy, due to the sense of urgency and importance that was attributed to the class materials, we all put our REAL lives on hold for whatever length of time we spent in TWI. We gave a lot, accomplished little, and a very few jerkoffs at the top of the "WayTree" made out like bandits. You'll pardon me if I'm not overly enthused that people are trying to resurrect this Bible blather again. If you like it, be my guest, but I remain underwhelmed...

Raf, Yeah, I could give you the name of the guy who called the airlines (he still lives in the area, though I haven't seen him in years, I could find him) And I know the gal that handled the phone during the meeting, though I have no idea where she is now. There's probably a few other names I could come up with. Oh, and J#e C%ulter was the guy running the meeting (and also the one who chewed out the skeptic). Ya really think it's that important? I find it simply typical of the old grifter. There's a myriad of similar stories I know of...

Garth, Which is precisely why I never argue with the boy - or people that wear tinfoil hats, or have lengthy discussions with invisible friends, or hear voices, or... Some things just don't make any sense to fool with...

Sudo, What, no "Goofy" hat (with the long ears)? I always wanted one of those to wear to inappropriate events (weddings and funerals and the like - well, maybe not funerals) but they don't make one big enough to fit my Norwegian head. (maybe that's the true source of my animosity towards Disneyana?)

Wordwolf, There's an additional "snow" event in Mr. Wierwille's history too. Back in '74 or so in Seattle area, VP and Howard were supposed to be coming out for a big meeting. Everybody showed up at some convention room and was waiting patiently for the arrival of the man/god and his lacky. Minutes go by - no show. MANY more minutes go by - still no show. Finally we get a phone call. VP explains that he and Howard are stuck in Reno. They just can't fly out, the entire airport is SNOWED IN! Boy, he just can't explain how his believing has failed, but, geeze, the flights have ALL been canceled. So, he does a "teaching" over the phone, a few unmiraculous minutes go by. Everybody sings, prays, and does their mystical stuff, the Vicster gives us his benediction and hangs up. Fine. Except one of the "believers" in the audience took it upon himself to call up the airlines and ask them about all those "canceled" flights. Turns out that NONE of the flights out of Reno had been canceled that day, and there had been NO snowstorm. And what was the result of all of that? Said believer got his a$$ reamed by the LC for being suspicious of THE MAN OF GOD! Yeah, and I overlooked all of that at the time. Whatta twit...

I haveto reiterate what Belle said: "I honestly can't find one d@mn good thing about the time I was involved." I used to say "Well, except I found my wife there!" Uh, yeah...

Except Johnur, I saw VPW rant, rave, tear some poor S.O.B. and new one, make really questionable sexual remarks, beat his dog with a stick, and play the hero at every event he attended. A also know several women who were the recipients of his advances. Once the hero-worship and warped, mystical thinking faded, it wasn't difficult to connect the dots. With the JFK assassination, there's no such evidence available. Lots of wild speculation that doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. Being a skeptic doesn't mean that I don't believe ANYTHING, just that I would like to have a modicum of proof first. When evidence is scarce, you have to make a judgement call as to what seems the most likely. Geeze, is that so hard to comprehend? OH, and those "loose ends". Take a closer look and they aren't as loose as the cornspiracy authors would have you believe.

One of the science channels (Discovery, TLC, History maybe) did an extensive testing of the "Magic Bullet" theory a while back. They set up a tower at the exact height of the TSBD window, set up tracks with a Lincoln limo and an exact reproduction of the seating arrangement. They then made ballistic gel molds of Kennedy and Connelly and dressed the models in suits. They ran the Lincoln past the tower at the same speed as the original was going, and had a marksman take his shot - aiming at the base of Kennedy's neck (where his first wound was made). And what was the result? The bullet went through the Kennedy dummy, into the Connelly dummy, exited the Connelly dummy and lodged in the "arm" of that model. The wound hole in the Connelly suit was almost an exact duplicate of Connelly's real one. A "magic" bullet? I think not. And such is just about all the conspiracy theorists "evidence". It's all very compelling, until you really examine it. BTW, Gerald Posner did an excellent analysis of the whole sordid mess in his book "Case Closed". He was rational, logical, and even-handed - all things the conspiracy authors are NOT - yet came to the conclusion that - the Warren Commission was right, no conspiracy. But, as with any faith-based belief system, logic seldom wins the day...