George Aar

SirG, I've read your post about a half a dozen times and I can't for the life of me figure out what you're trying to say. Am I being dense or are you being obtuse?

I was just reading this in a review of "The God Delusion" at Skepdic.com (Robert Todd Carroll) and thought it appropriate to insert here: "There is nothing magisterial about irrational faith. Truth is truth. There is not a truth for reason and a truth for faith. To consider the musings of theologians about the Trinity as protected from rational analysis because it is a matter of faith is to abandon reason and admit that irrationality is as good as rationality as a basis for belief. That position can't even be argued for because it requires rationality to argue. Believing on faith is not something to be proud of; it is something a human being should be ashamed of. If we value truth, we must value reason. Faith is not the road to truth but the road to anything goes because we say so. To allow someone off the hook from having to defend his beliefs because he throws up the shield of faith is not only to grant him the right to be irrational, it is also to grant that his irrationality is on an equal footing with your rationality. We shouldn't allow that. We should make it clear that we think a human being should be embarrassed to think it a good thing to believe something on faith. And we should not confuse faith with trust or probability." (this is copyright material, but the site allows for "fair-use excerpting" - I assume that's what this is?)

Is He? Isn't that really what we're discussing? How do you know it just wasn't the ramblings of some old sage? Are people really so stupid that they couldn't cook up a book of mildly intelligent aphorisms? And if they did, and then somehow or other it gets branded as wisdom from The Almighty, how would we know different? Sorry, just the sort of things that run through my head whenever I read a "pat answer" type of response.

Why should you be a Christian? Well, I'd say "'cause you wanna be". I can't think of much else to persuade you. I know that when I finally gave up on the whole religious aspect of my life, nothing really changed. Life still went on pretty much as always. I had problems and successes, ill health and good, happy times, sad times, abundance and lack. In other words, normal life. I did have a little more time on my hands, though, what with no meetings to go to and no holy writs to study and contemplate, let alone all the time I wasted trying to con something out of some holy-thunderer somewhere (praying). Wouldn't you think that if there was really THE MOST POWERFUL BEING IN THE UNIVERSE actively concerned with every aspect of my life that I'd have noticed SOMETHING different? But, no. He prefers to keep a pretty low profile, I guess. And then when I was in Mexico I noticed all the peasants done there, active, DEVOTED Christians, who prayed incessantly, went to church as regular as clockwork, yet they had TREMENDOUS, obvious, basic need in their lives. They went without needed medical care, decent clothing, food and shelter. What are they doing wrong? Is it just that they're the wrong brand? I mean, they are mostly RCs. Maybe that's it. God just hates those damned Catlickers? I dunno. And then when I visited Cambodia I found out what REAL destitution looked like. Good grief, that place made Mexico look affluent. And yet those people were really devout in their religion as well. Again, maybe God just gets ....ed if you haven't figured out how to worship Him PROPERLY? Then how do you explain people like me? We don't do sheeit to help out the poor 'ol Almighty, yet He continues to shower us with blessings. We're just riding on the coattails of all the GOOD Christians around us? Yeah, that must be it. And those poor bastards in those S$%thole third-world countries? Well, they're just SOL, God obviously doesn't deliver there...

BTW, the swastika is still in common use today in Buddhist and Hindu temples. There is a clockwise and counter-clockwise design and - though what the meaning is seems to vary greatly depending on who you ask - it's generally said to be a symbol of longevity, abundance, and good fortune. Personally I find "faith" to be simply an excuse to believe in something that you have no proof for whatever, but, as a great sage once said, "Whatever blows your skirt up"...

Gawd, what a great site to launch an MLM business. Lots of young, unemployed marks-er-associates to do your bidding, no questions asked! Hmmmm...

Well, great, I really admire the guy. But I used to feel like I was at least an adequate dad till I saw this...

Korean War vets knew her well enough to name a mountain after her...

IIRC, the "Snorky" was a reference to his swimming ability (snorkel?). I guess he was on the swim team in school. He was a great guy once upon a time. I wonder if there's any chance of him finding himself again?

Has anybody ever? I'm pretty dubious. But then, I would be. Personally, it seems like it's all a scam. Levitating gurus, faithhealing apostles, or just a hackneyed magician sawing a woman in half, it's all just a performance. There's never any verifiable proof and our only options end up being - believe or don't. I don't...

I lived for two years in Alabama. Uh, I guess you'll have to put me in the ranks of those that just don't get it. And I REALLY don't. God help me if I ever had to go back...

I'm pretty sure there hasn't been a generation in existence - EVER - that didn't believe they were in the "end times". Even in the Bible there's ample evidence that they believed they would see the "end" soon. Another noteworthy example of the endtimes thinking was the Reverend Miller in upstate New York in the 1830's and 40's. He had worked out the timetable and concluded that 1843 would be the earth's last year. All the congregation got together on a specific day to meet the Lord and be taken away to Neverland. Musta got a tad awkward after a few too many hours of waiting. Anyway, the Reverend - still unabashed in his prophetic beliefs gathered his followers again a few months later, as he had revised his calculations and was sure this time. Alas, the results were about the same as before, save having surely alienated a few more parishoners by then. Eventually the whole "ministry" broke up over the failed predictions and formed up into "splinter" groups, the most noteable being The Seventh-Day Adventist Church and the Jehovah's Witnesses...

And, if we buy that story, how do we know that Gabriel or Michael won't jump ship next? Honestly, I think the Bible could have used a good proofreader/editor who could have straightened out some of the incongruities and blatant errors (yes, Virginia, there ARE some)...

Vickles, No, University Place is about halfway between Steilacoom and Tacoma. It's a bit off of the I-5 corridor, which is why I have never been through it. I can't imagine how they picked that little town as a place to send their W.O.W.s. Just thankful it wasn't Everett or Marysville or Mt.Vernon, where there's a good chance I'd run into them. Did I ever mention that I have an irresistable draw on any nutcakes in my general vacinity? It's horribly true. If there's anyone within a 4 or 5 mile radius of me with a rather tenuous grasp on reality they IMMEDIATELY feel compelled to come over and be my friend. Just lucky I guess...

The biggest help for me was posting about a gazillion times a day on WayDale. Everytime something came up in my head that ....ed me off about WayWorld, I'd start another topic. After 6 or 8 months I was feeling a LOT better, thank you very much. Professional help (somebody who specializes in ex-cult stuff would be a plus I'd think) might be a good thing too, if you can afford it.

Slightly off topic for a minute, if you'll indulge me. I LOVE good coffee, but I've got to say, it's the ultimate tease. It NEVER tastes quite as good as it smells. One of life's little disappointments...

"looks like it's a suburb of tacoma." Yeah, curiousity got the best of me and I looked at a map. I guess I've heard of the place, now that I think about it. And I've no doubt driven right past it on numerous occasions, just never paid it any mind. Fortunately, it's a good hour or so drive, so it's not likely I'll run into the poor deluded dweebs... Oh, and yeah, when we drove to the ROA, we'd usually follow I-90 to I-94, then sort of meander south around Wisconsin...

O.K., I live just north of Seattle (and have off and on since 1960) but I have no clue where "University Place" is. Anybody clue me in?

Religion really has all the earmarks of a rather hackneyed sales campaign. The ever-present carrot and stick - Go to hell if you don't play by the rules - Go to heaven if you're "good". And then, of course, they have to beat back the competition with numerous admonitions that their way is the ONLY true way, and any others are corrupt and EVIL. Once you've managed to distance yourself from it a bit, it all becomes pretty childish and silly...

I'm a little lukewarm on the whole vigilante justice sort of thing. Around here a few years back the locals caught up with a "child molester" and - after beating the living daylights out of him - burned his house down. "Well, gee, isn't that just special" I thought. Then, later on it was revealed that not only was the house not his (he was staying with friends), but that there was considerable doubt as to whether he had actually molested anybody, or was he simply the victim of a disgruntled ex-girlfriend's vindictiveness. (it turned out that she accused him of statutory rape of her daughter, and the alledged incident had taken place some 4 YEARS earlier [when her daughter would have been under the age of consent] Her daughter denied anything ever happened) But, we got our pound of flesh! The "class 3 child molester" (according to the news) had been dealt with good an proper by some plain 'ol folks who know better than them durn activist judges! uh un.....

Oh my! It's worse than I thought! Lordy Greg, you do for Biblical research what panty hose do for spontaneous lovemaking...

Even the title of this thread is an absurd Wayforism. "The Best" - compared to what? Is it really possible to have "The Best" of anything? Isn't there always just a little more that could be added to the mix? Of course if we're really "tapped in", then we can be certain that we know what's "best" can't we? Just like the guy I used to know who was absolutely certain that there were flying saucers buried under the pyramids of Egypt. It seems that certainty and absolutes are often within the purview of the metally unhinged...

Well, I remember the '60s pretty well, being born in '52, but I don't think I remember them the same way you do, sprawled. I remember a turbulent, unhinged, often aimless time. Everybody was trying to find their own path, their own drummer to march to. And I think we came damned close to anarchy. Don't get me wrong, I really liked the '60s, but it was a really unsettled time. Certainly not for the faint of heart. The war protesters, the Weathermen, the Black Panthers, LSD, the whole counter-culture thing, the battle between the generations. It wasn't always pleasant, but it was exciting. It burned itself out though, and slowly morphed into the malaise of the '70s and then the tech-revolution of the '80s and now the period of neo-imperialism (augmented by large doses of self-righteous religiosity), where the ultimate goal in life seems to be to invest wisely in real estate. All things considered, I guess I would prefer to be sitting around, smoking dope with a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals and blathering on about the ills of "the establishment", but - unfortunately - I was forced to grow up. Oh well...

Personally, I think man's greatest spiritual problem is believing there is something called "spirit". That is, something that cannot be perceived by the senses, cannot be falsified, and can only be experienced, never proven. Geeze Pete, we're well into the 21st century now, and with the evils of religion so apparent (and so DEADLY!) now, GAWD I wish we'd just snap out of it already. It's all a joke people. And the joke's on us. We're all passengers on the same little planet. We only have a short life to live. Do we really need to spend so much time hating one another because we don't share the same superstitions? If there IS some afterlife of some sort, we have no way of knowing about it so it's futile to speculate, and downright harmful to argue over. So, here's an idea. Let's live like decent human beings, pulling our own weight and caring for one another as best we can, and if there is a remarkable next life, we'll be all ready for it anyway. And if there ain't, we won't know it. I used to be somewhat ambivalent about religion. I figured "live and let live". If someone wants to believe in whatever metaphysical nonsense they choose, what difference does it make? That was until 9/11. I don't think that way anymore...

Yeah, O.K., I'll play the spoilsport. There's numerous stories on the net about such events. They commonly seem to have some sort of connection to male genetalia, and the usual result being that poor, stupid man renders himself unconcious. All of that's well and good, and being as groin injuries (to men, anyway) are sooo humorous, I guess I can see the popularity. But, have you ever been knocked out? Do you even know anyone who has? I sure don't. I myself have been struck in the head with a 20' piece of 2" steel pipe and - though I did see stars for a few minutes - remained concious. We all seem to have the notion - reinforced no doubt by countless T.V. shows - that it's incredibly easy to be knocked unconcious. That's simply not true. And to think that someone could do it to themself by bumping their head under a sink, well it strains credulity to the breaking point (for me, anyway). O.K. back to the show... Oh yeah, then there's this:http://www.snopes.com/critters/farce/hindlick.htm