George Aar

In "Logic 101" this would be deemed a "false dilemma" IIRC. There's likely many more options than simply the two you're presenting, not the least of which being that BOTH ideas are false. BTW, my favorite arguments generally are about nothing. From my vantage point now, I can't think of anything more trivial and ultimately meaningless than religious tenets. It's right up there with arguing about U.F.O.s or Bigfoot or 911 "Truthers" maybe...

Well, here's a current (well, cir. 2007) photo of Mueller's grave (scroll down the page a bit). It does look like it's been neglected for some time now, but I have no idea what that says about Mr. Wierwille's credibility. Uhh, doesn't change my opinion of the guy much: http://georgemuller.blogspot.com/2007_03_01_archive.html

Now that Mstar mentioned it, I recall my Aunt always keeping her refridgerator and pantry packed to the limits with food too. There was just her and my Uncle to feed (and my Uncle never ate anything) but by God, she wasn't going to run out!

My dad told some stories from time to time. But the really ugly stuff he kept mum about. But living through the depression in Northern Minnesota musta been a tough row to hoe. I remember him telling about going to the butcher shop and buying chicken cartilage for a few cents a pound to make soup with. And his mother opened a boarding house and housed and fed an ever-changing cast of lumberjacks, fishermen, and bootleggers for a few dollars a month. My dad then joined the CCCs and pretty much supported his mother and sister (along with the income from the boarding house)with the money he made there. I guess the government just sent his check straight to his mother's house, and he never even got to see it. He was well fed in camp, though. And he always talked fondly of the time he spent in camp, so it must have been a pleasant-enough of an existence. After the CCCs he got a job in Greenland (cooking again) and from there went straight into the Navy for WWII.

I'm currently doing some remodeling for a Muslim client. Funny, she has no hesitation at all to join in when I mention how silly - or even ludicrous - many tenets of the Christian faith are. But if I say the same things about Mohammed and Muslim beliefs, NO, NO, NO! That's the REAL truth. And she KNOWS it in her heart. And God has PROVEN it (to her). Yeah, O.K., fine...

Agreed (wholeheartedly). So what then is the "extraordinary" proof of 1. Noah's Ark and the litany of remarkable tales outside of the known laws of physics of the Old Testament 2. The virgin birth of Jesus 3. Walking on water 4. Raising the dead 5. Healing the sick, lame, blind, etc. with a mere touch of a hand (or of a garment) 6. Communication with holy entities of all sorts - God Himself, Jesus (His somewhat ill-defined alter ego?), and angels Isn't religious belief simply a choice rather than any sort of intellectual exercise? Despite protestations to the contrary, it strikes me that "spirituality" is all about emotions and requires little or no reason (in fact, I think reason often gets in the way of traditional religious thought).

Why is it that - of all the endless "holy" writings of the ancient world - the BIBLE should be accepted in toto while all the others can (and of rights I guess SHOULD be)totally disregarded? Krishna is said to have defeated an evil enemy by striking him with a feather, Yogis are said to be able to levitate at will by focusing their minds, the Daruma - in a show of dedication and humility - clipped off his eyelids so he wouldn't go to sleep while praying - and eventually his legs simply melted away from lack of use, Mithra is said to have been born out of a rock and slayed a bull single-handedly. And the list goes on. A myriad of miraculous things performed by gods and god/men. But of course, good Christians aren't swayed by such tripe. They only believe the "REAL" miracles. Feh...

I never cease to be amazed at the certainty some believers exhibit - be it the fourth century Romans or GS posters today - about a book as malleable or inscrutable (and even filled with palpable errors) as The Bible. How can one possibly be so goddammed certain about something when theres so many equally intelligent and dedicated scholars with wildly diverse ideas about what it means? And, in a larger sense, why would an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful God come up with an instruction book that was so obtuse? Maybe He's just got a sick sense of humor? I dunno...

Me three. If it wasn't so ominous, I'd find a good bit of humor in the conservative/fundamentalist labels of late. "Patriot Act", "Defense of Marriage Act", "Intelligent Design" and such like are absolutely morbidly obese with irony...

I'm just in shock. Say it isn't so. Gawd, I'm just having a hard time thinking this is real. I'm so sorry for everyone who was close to him. Though I only knew him from online banter and an occasional phone call, I felt like we were certainly friends and shared a certain comradarie. My heartfelt condolances to all and R.I.P. Rummy...

Having sampled the wonderful fruits of the institution of marriage, one wonders why anyone would want to join in the carnage anyway? Maybe I've just slipped off into the "hopelessly cynical" phase of life? Uh un, but get off my lawn anyway...

It seems to me that one can tell when a Biblical Scholar has finally "arrived" in that he no longer believes in much of anything anymore. He embraces agnosticism with open arms relieves himself of the daily struggle to try to make sense of the inherently irrational...

And if one takes another step back for a little larger picture, I think just about any religion ends up there. Sure it's all about the love, goodness and forebearing of the chosen Diety du jour, but sooner or later it always gets around to the worthlessness of those damned infidels. I think it just comes with the territory...

Blessings be upon Jack Chick for lo, his many "Jesus-Freak Comix"-inspired, cannibis-addled giggle-fests...

I think simply talking (or posting) till you're all talked out is about as good a therapy as you can get. It worked for me, anyway. I'm not much of a "believer" anymore (of much of anythiing - though the basic laws of physics seem to hold up pretty well), so I don't put much faith (read "none") in any sort of relationship with some invisible being. I've never seen any benefit in that (though I know there are legions who will take me to task on that point), in or out of WayWorld. But just posting day in and day out for months on WayDale helped me work out a lot of the angst and resentment that I'd been harboring for years. It finally got to the point where I just didn't care to talk about TWI anymore. It eventually just became irrelevant to me. As I think it will for you too, given a little time. I think I'd recommend reading too, but NOT the Bible. Gawd, you've had enough of that for awhile, doncha think? A couple of good reads that I enjoyed in my "decompressing" phase were "Guns, Germs and Steel" - gave me a much-needed alternate view of mankind and civilization, and "Confuscious Lives Next Door", and "Why People Believe Weird Things", among others. Really, anything other than religious stuff was a wonderful change of pace, and allowed me a little space to detox. Yeah, and there's regret too. I don't know as that ever goes away. Hell, we wasted a large portion of our lives for basically nothing. That's a bitter pill to swallow. But, what the hell, lots of others have done as much and worse. And it's done now, so the only thing to do is make the best of what time we've got left. Oh well...

Don't you do yourself a disservice by allowing your brain to make these wild leaps of illogic? I see it so often with the fundamentalist mindset that adherents will paste a few crumbs of science into a patchwork of immense, unfounded assumptions, and then make even more absurd conclusions based on utterly baseless assertions. It's your party, you can do what you like I suppose. But why not drop any pretense to actual science and dispense with the technical terminology. And, as I'm fairly confident you already realize, there are really simple, rather prosaic explanations for the supposed "mysteries" you're invoking. They're definitely not as much fun though. And I think that that in itself is one reason that religion is still popular today...

This one's 51 years old now, and still fresh. The older I get, the more I identify with the sentiments of the title...

Well, it may be a slightly newer look, but I can't say that it's really any better.He may have a lot of talents, but being attractive isn't in his repetoire I'm afraid...

It was years after I'd left WayWorld that I finally put together the double-entendre of "sugar" and realized what the "Shack" was even for. O.K., so I never claimed to be a genius. On question #2, Sarah Silverman has no detectable sense of humor, near as I can tell. And I've never heard of Dane Cook (M or F?)...

Old habits die hard, don't they?

If I may digress for just a moment. I noticed this in the news this morning, along with the tag line that the lone survivor was a "miracle". http://pacificeyewitness.com/2010/05/12/breaking-plane-crash-in-libya-kills-103-passengers-one-survivor/ One wonders how miraculous it was for the other 103 passengers...

I think they were LOTS of folks who knew, but they were carefully chosen, probably because they were thought to be capable of keeping a lid on it. I'd heard some vague references to stuff going on from some 1st-year Corps folk back in 1980. They didn't know a lot fo specifics, but they had been indoctrinated with the approved rationalizations ("If someone really NEEDED sex, what would be the LOVING thing to do?" and other such tripe). It sounded peculiar to me at the time, but hey, I was just a lowly Twigite. These guys were in THE CORPS, right next to the MOG, they MUST know better, right? What a farking waste of life it all was, REALLY...

It was a close race for me. The much vaunted "Law of Buhleeving" and "The Bible is the Revealed Word and Will of God", both exited from my radar at about the same time. Don't miss either one a bit...

Yes, in my in-depth textual research, I've discovered in Matthew 5:5 that the word "meek" in the "the meek shall inherit the earth" is more properly translated "cockroaches". There ya go...