another spot

Self is OK. It is Ok to say I like this, or I don’t. It is OK to say I want to do this, or I don’t. It is OK to have an opinion. It is OK to have an independent thought. It is OK to look at something and say, “That isn’t right for me.” How many years did it take me to get to that point? More than I would have expected. I had a situation come up about a month ago in my family. My niece had knee surgery. My step brother sent her an email inviting her to his adult web site. He said in the letter she would need permission from her parents to go to it. She is 16. I was quite incensed when I heard about it. Ok, I was livid…The stance of the family was to ignore it in order to get along. I didn’t know which was worse, their attitude or the email. I made it known I would contact him myself if no one else would. If I did it, it would not be diplomatic… Silence would have two results: (1). Teach my step brother this was OK with the family and (2). Teach my niece she wasn’t important enough to stand up for. I really didn’t care if my position resulted in the family “not getting along.” Not even my sister, my niece’s mother was willing to take a stand. To be quite frank with you, had I not expressed my position and my anger, I doubt anything would have happened unless I did it myself. As it was, my step dad took care of the situation. Two years ago I would have done the same thing, I just wouldn’t have had the confidence to go along with it. At the same time, I don’t advocate anger as a normal mode of operation. It was just necessary in this particular instance to wake my family up in light of their resistance. Twi was slavery to the eyes of others. That is an understatement. There are so many things involved in recovery, but acquiring a backbone and the self confidence to speak up is a big one. A real big one…huge. And a lot of steps just to get there. Thanks Eyes for a great thread, and keep digging in that couch!!

Is there another way of understanding that verse which would justify speaking words which can potentially cause someone to abandon their faith?—Larry Not that I know of. 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Ti 2:16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Twi dished out enough harm in this category, why would I want to add to it? But that’s me. My own ethics prevent me from saying or doing anything harmful or potentially harmful to others in any category. I do this out of self love as much as love to others, so I don’t have to deal with guilt. Like you though, I’ve been known not to follow it all the time… Others have to make their own decisions.

(There is a moral (ok just a point) to this story): Spouse: I just f*arted in your presence. Me: Stop that. It makes me mad when you f*art in my presents. A few days later, I became more enlightened. “Progressive revelation.” Me: You know, f*art is just art with an “f” in front… Now I am an art critic. Nevermind. I’ll just throw the slimy tomatoes at myself…

Chapter Eight James Bird’s ears perked. The wolves are coming. “Hurry, we must find the stash of nuts.” They began searching all the compartments, each carefully labeled, such as “Law of Believing.” The wolves arrived. “You will never find them outside the household of the Borg, the collective unconscious” the leader snarled, saliva dripping from his jaws. Teeth clenched, Sir Squirrel began throwing slimy tomatoes with all his might, which was considerable. Surprised at the lack of appreciation for their wisdom and knowledge, the wolves stopped in their tracks and stared. They even stopped salivating. Meanwhile, James Bird found the bag of nuts in a dusty, unused drawer. It was labeled “reality.” Truly this was a great treasure worth all the effort and would be much needed when he got to the desert. He waved it carefully in front of the nose of each wolf. One by one they each passed out, unable to accept what was in front of them.

We've already passed "GO" and collected our $200. So for us, imo at least, we aren't even on the "payroll" of sin and therefore can't earn death.—Larry Quite right. But we do still experience it. I was trying to make the point it is a condition put on all, but not particularly earned in reference to your baby statement. Not completely thought out…of course we were redeemed. What do you think of Hebrews 2:14? I.e the devil having the power (exousia) of death? Twi taught the devil was the author of death. There is no such Scripture and clearly in Genesis God put forth the rules.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. The word “concluded” in Gal. is like fish caught in a net. It was a condition that doesn’t necessarily mean sin is committed. Also, because of Adam all men die and all are concluded in sin, but it doesn’t mean death in individuals is the direct result of individual sin. Also, I’ve read the correct translation to thou shalt surely die, is dying thou shalt die. It wasn’t spirit, as there is no indication Adam and Eve had it. It couldn’t logically be soul, and according to Romans, it was physical death. So there is a big logic problem here. They were allowed to freely eat of every tree except the tree of KofG and E. The only explanation that fits the facts for me is they had eternal life, sinned, received the judgment dying thou shalt die (thus losing it), and at this point the tree of life was withheld. I don’t know about the healing part other than there is a relationship between sickness and death and healing and life.

Me too, Cman... _________________________________________________________________ The book of Job I don’t pretend to understand the exchange between God and Satan, however I have great disagreement with vp on the meaning of the book as a whole. In the initial exchange, Satan questions whether Job would still trust God if he was afflicted. God then gives permission. The three friends are of the belief Job must have sinned, that is Job’s life was a direct reflection of his own obedience or lack of it, therefore determining God’s actions. In chapter 40, God responds not with answers but questions. Job 40:1-14 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? He that reproveth God, let him answer it. Then Job answered the Lord, and said, Behold, I am vile: what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further. Then answered the Lord unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? Wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him? Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty. Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath : and behold every one that is proud, and abase him. Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret. Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee. For several chapters God makes the point that Job is not capable of understanding how to run the universe or His righteous judgments. The idea that Job had fear that allowed all this to happen is just a different twist on the same idea Job’s friends had. What Job finally gets in the above verses is God does what He does, as opposed to being an instrument of the will of man, and when He does things to bless and deliver it is because of His own righteousness and not the relative righteousness of man. Going back to Deuteronomy, God’s actions to deliver the children of Israel from slavery had nothing to do with their own actions. They had no idea who God was. 1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. God’s greatest acts of love and deliverance were not earned in any sense.

Nevermind. My math is all wrong...so sorry. Just double checked with my spouse who is good with math... Nonetheless, I am intrigued with the phrase.

P. S. If it’s true that Abraham was born in 2166 B.C., and if the average age for the firstborn of each generation was 21.66 years, then a thousand generations would take us to the birth of Christ. Approximately.

I am no fan of vp or pfal, and I’ve tried at times to come up with anything at all positive I got from twi. There is one thing I do remember that caused me to sit bolt upright: 1Cr 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Oh geez. I am writing this post remembering something along the lines of had the devil known it blah, blah, blah. Now I read “princes” plural, and so I realize there is a good chance it refers to the government and church leaders… The entire rest of the class I was bored beyond belief and uncomfortable from the metal chairs. As far as are the dead alive now, I don’t care. I trust God to take care of it. The trinity? I didn’t believe it to start with. At the same time, I know twi diminished Jesus a LOT. I am not through with this subject. Beyond that, I have a lot of Bible in my head and still have many twi doctrinal “fleas.” A real chaff and wheat situation, which I continue to sort thru, much like a big fire and sifting through the ashes. For those that think twi was a great thing, well I don’t suppose to be a judge of what others should think.

Unless I missed one, the first place I could find that states God loves is here: Deu 4:37 And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt; The second one elaborates on this further: Deu 7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth. Deu 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people: Deu 7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he [is] God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; The NIV translates verse nine as a “covenant of love.” This covenant of course was initially with Abraham, who was called a “friend of God” because he believed God. The verses go on to say that if they loved Him and kept His commandments they would enjoy freedom from disease, deliverance, they and their animals would be fruitful and multiply, their crops would be blessed, and other things. God loved them. He wanted them to love Him back and obey for their own sakes. They were in a covenant relationship. God was faithful to keep His covenant with Abraham, He is asking for Israel’s faithfulness. Verse nine almost sounds conditional, but I’m not sure about that one way or another without doing much more reading. In any case, what I’m trying to do right now is locate every verse that says anything about God is love or that He loves. One thing I think we can safely conclude is that God loved Abraham and the outstanding thing about him is that he believed God. Israel then was benefiting and receiving God’s love as a result. According to Romans, this faith/believing was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness. So you’re right, T-bone. It is a relationship. This is something else I thought was pretty great: Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.

If one practices this law, as with all the laws of keeping kosher, it requires you to put much thought into your food preparation. The result of that thought is a respect and thankfulness, far far beyond the simple repetitive "blessing over a meal." There is a real sense of connectedness to the earth, the animals and vegetation that are here to sustain us, and to God for designing and creating the whole thing. When you have this sense of connectedness, as you develop it and build upon it, you have more care for (emotionally, spiritually, and via physical action) the things around you, out of genuine love and respect instead of out of legalism, coersion, obligation, etc.—Abigail That’s interesting. It reminds me of: Gen. 9:3-6 (NIV) Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man. Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man. I remember reading somewhere that the blood was to be buried. At the time I thought that was puzzling, however I wonder if the point was the action caused a person to be more mindful and respectful…both of the life and the blood. Blood was set aside for atonement and other purposes. I am also intrigued with the phrase, “image of God.” I’ve seen this phrase elsewhere in connection with life and blood. It would be just as easy to say respect the life because God made it. Instead, it’s respect the life because man is made in the image of God. That communicates just how disrespectful it really is to disrespect life. The other thought I had was that Jesus certainly understood love God, love your neighbor. What He had to go on was the OT… Good posts all, and lots to ponder. This is just the first thing that sprang to mind.

Please feel free to elaborate about what you learned about OT laws, Abigail. I think if I’d spent more time in the OT, I wouldn’t have the questions I have now…all I know about OT laws is the majority define sin and right from wrong. That’s it. That’s all I know. I don’t agree with vp on dispensationlism or that the OT is just for our learning. A big part of it can be taken quite literally and should be.

I’ve taught this in twig so many times. I even taught it at branch meetings. I’ve heard it taught many times. In twi, I learned it’s “the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation.” Ultimately this was a formula. Poke verses in brain, crank out love. How heartless, impersonal, mechanical, and bizarre! A formula for love? Are you serious? The defining characteristic of agape in twi was, “God so loved He gave.” I’m not opposed to that except that it is very possible to give with no heart in it whatsoever. Compare that to this sentence: I was so hungry that I cooked dinner, so that all in the house might eat. Then I say that “cooked dinner” is the chief characteristic of hunger. Well it’s not. There are many ways I might deal with dinner, but ultimately, I am going to eat. Likewise there are many ways I might express love, but ultimately, the expression and chief characteristic of love is that it is loving, which may or may not include giving, but usually does. The importance of “God so loved He gave” is not that He gave. The importance is we had not earned it, had done nothing to deserve it, and He gave a precious thing, that is His Son. It was a heart thing. The point of this thread: It is an attempt to answer what does it mean that God is love? What does it mean to love God? What does it mean to love each other?

Eyes, thank you for your kind remarks. Your sofa posts were excellent. I’m kinda talked out on this topic for the moment.

Shifra, I’ve read enough of your posts to know you were magnificently hurt by twi. Those verses were wrongly taught and most certainly wrongly used. They could have focused on Habbakkuk and we would find those verses hard to cope with also. There are verses that have driven me up the wall until I dug in, and figured out what was right (with the assistance of others). My best to you, Deb

Oh sofa mia, so plaid and red I’d dreamed to be a table, and awoke a bed It’s all so different now, the sofa quest I’ll lay my head now, and get some rest

I think you’ve got it all wrong, Socks. The literal according to interpretation is “more on.” Or “off.” I’m fine with it either way as long as there is a switch to turn it on or off. I like having a choice.

Chapter Seven James Bird (is that an ostrich I hear squawking something about plagiarism? Never mind…) and Sir Squirrel finally found the food pantry after much meandering and climbing over various metal objects. They approached the stove with much caution and a certain amount of fear. Carefully, James lifted the lid on the pot that was emitting green steam. “It’s simmering strange metallic doctrines” he screamed. “Ready to be served on a silver platter and assimilated by the handful that still care about it, and fed to their collective conscience!" In a fit of vengeance, Sir Squirrel leaped to the top of the stove and began chopping up the meal. As he hacked and slashed, his rusty sword grew sharper, and his mind became clearer, in spite of the green steam. James Bird was growing faint, however.

Darn. Only at GS would I find out my true identity is a piece of furniture. And probably full of feathers and sand...

“TWI offered the best of two worlds, to be big with both God and man at the same time and all you had to do was give away your soul and sear your conscience.”—Eyes. It gave us an identity. One we thought was worth all the effort. At the same time there was enormous fear of leaving (get possessed etc). Upon leaving, well, we didn’t know who we were anymore. It wasn’t just the doctrine was false. It was necessary to rebuild and rediscover ourselves from the ground up. For me at least, all the way down to every thought that crosses my mind. Still: because I know I still have twi crap in my head…Out darn spot… Yep, the harmony was false, so was “likeminded.” This way was the only way. And the deeper I dig, the more bizarre it looks to me. Eyes: your explanation about commitment really makes sense.

Eyes, I think you found more than a dollar! Still digesting it... I'm with you Bramble. It isn't just the control I don't like. I can't bring myself to make a commitment to anyone but my family and friends, especially with regard to time and effort. I have NO idea why. I really don't.

Wordwolf: Well that was a nice thing to wake up to!!! :)

That's too funny. Darn, I wish I'd named him James Bird in the story.... You guys feel free to add chapters to the story, if you want. I just started it is all.

I was just reading “adultery vs soul stealing” thread. To be honest I couldn’t read much of it. God had no part in that. I really can’t put that in perspective. At all. Other than to say everyone’s life is different and you really can’t put a blanket statement “one shoe fits all” on everyone…I can only speak for myself and my own life. Twi was one sick puppy and I’m glad we’re gone…I’m glad we have each other to work through it. I am glad for the way we support each other. I am glad for God’s justice. Spiritual abuse isn’t funny. Sexual abuse isn’t funny. Sexual abuse of children is evil beyond description. These are terrible realities of twi, a monster creation of vp. If it were easy to put off, we wouldn’t still be here years later. Kathy, there’s no grammar police here on this thread that I know of. If that were to occur, trust me, I’d get in the middle of it. Your thoughts and insights have great value to me and others. I personally enjoy hearing what you have to say, and from what I can see, you have a great heart. That is what matters…from your great heart words come that speak to mine. I agree with you that twi was confusing and contradicting. It was oppressive in many ways. Performance, performance, performance. And no amount of performance was enough. I enjoyed to hearing about your conversation with your son, I enjoy knowing who you are, and what’s on your mind. I’ve been attending a small Presbyterian church the last few months. At first I really liked it. Lately they’ve been pushing tithing and service for all kinds of busyness. Not for me. I am looking for a different one…I just can’t do the performance thing anymore, and I can’t stand being a slave to the eyes of others. Multiple meetings per week, forget it. If I can come and go as I please OK. Otherwise, no. I don’t care about being profound. I am just me.