another spot

For me personally it isn’t so much a matter of living as if He were coming back any second as much as how would I live if there were no hope at all? There would be no point in anything. Because I know He is coming back sometime and this life is temporary, I do my best. I have a reason and a motive to live as godly as possible besides the fact that it is the right thing to do. The phrase “hope in Him” caught my eye. Not THE hope, but hope in Him is the condition. Purify relates to commitment to refrain from sin with the purity of Jesus as an example. The idea originates with the Nazirite vow of the O.T.

Since Jesus didn’t stop everything and go on a literal fast before he cast out the spirit, I assume it’s figurative. In general, from the verses below, I understand fasting as a heart thing, and humility. Dan 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: Dan 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments; Joe 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye [even] to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: Joe 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he [is] gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil. Joe 2:14 Who knoweth [if] he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; [even] a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God? Seems to me what Jesus was saying the requirement for casting out the spirit was a mind focused on God and humility. The context of the record: Mar 9:21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child. Mar 9:22And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us. Mar 9:23Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things [are] possible to him that believeth. Mar 9:24And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. I think Jesus was perfectly capable of casting this spirit out whether the man believed and got humble or not. I think he said these things to teach him where and how the deliverance comes from. That is the same lesson he later teaches the disciples.

Phil 3:13. Check out the context. The past he is referring to is specific, not general. Along the lines of live for today because sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. Can’t control the past. That concept is again something added to the context. It is true in a sense, but it doesn’t mean you can’t learn from it. Just another way to compartmentalize and not think. One of those little mental boxes. Yeah I skrewed up yesterday, now I’m going to ignore it. Not dealing with things on the basis of it’s in the past is a lifestyle of either denial or sweeping things under the rug. Sweeping things under the rug has a way of coming back to bite you later. I’d rather live in the present with the wisdom I’ve gained from the past, alert to things from my past adversely affecting my present. Sometimes I look to the past to refine my present and improve it. I think it is taking responsibility for my own actions as best I can. LCM used to teach you don’t learn from doing things wrong, you learn from doing things right. I beg to differ. If you don’t recognize and understand the wrong, how do you recognize fully the right? I think both are needed.

lol. Something along this line was in the Lion King. My memory is vague. One whacks another on the head. The other objects. The first responds, "Forget it. It's in the past."

I got permission from eyes to post this excerpt from a letter from her. “When I read something about our/my experience with twi, if that something sheds light on a memory or feeling that I once had then its like the bad memory suddenly doesn't look so scary. The "bad thing" isn't quite so ominous when exposed. For me it’s akin to finding out that the reason that I limp is because I have this big gaping wound in my leg and that wound has festered for so long that it is filled with puss and everything around it is angry and diseased. But when I shine the light of knowledge and understanding onto that wound it gets cleaned out. The more I understand about how I got it, the less diseased it is. It will leave a scar, but I can deal with a scar, they only itch once and a while. They don't infect surrounding parts, they don’t make me limp or immobilize me. They are just a reminder that I once was injured. Facing demons: A person can either confront them, run from them or try and put them back into their box. Funny thing about demons, once they are out of the box putting them back in..is near impossible. So it is confront or run. Fight or flight. With help from others one will fight and win back his or her life...”

That really is a good question Abi dear. For myself, what Eyes posted was part of it. The other part is I had no idea what boundaries are. In fact I only learned that a few years ago. Somehow in all my reading I missed that one. It never crossed my mind it is abnormal for another adult to make my decisions or exercise great control over my life. I didn’t recognize “face melting” was not Biblical (verbal or physical violence, a striker Biblically). I knew it felt bad. I think twi doctrine itself made it very difficult to see the forest for the trees. As I write this I know it’s not a complete answer. Maybe we just see what we see when we see it. In any case, your question deserves more thought and discussion. I have the same one…

“The depths of despair...the complete loathing of self...the utter separation from God and all whom I loved...it was the deepest and most blackest of despair...a bleakness that defies description…”—Rascal Which is why in my opinion spiritual abuse is the worst kind. It is one thing to see you lack value to another person, that can be easily dismissed. To think you lack value to God is devastating. ”Destructive doctrine and morally depraved teachers go hand in hand.”—T-bone. Boy that’s the truth!! Nice post, T-bone. I hope you don’t mind, but I am copying and pasting something you said on the pfal thread and putting it here. “In my opinion, one of the most beneficial functions of the mind - reflection - was discouraged in PFAL and of course in TWI. There’s something about the mindset of PFAL that gets people to sever their connection with reality – TWI folks don’t like to dwell on the past…thoughts that tend toward introspection are suppressed. What is the practical consequence of such a mindset? It doesn’t see any relation between past thoughts/actions and current conditions. Adrift toward some future – awash in confusing details of past and present…It is shallow thinking – incapable of mining personal history for self-improvement, for lessons learned, for understanding how we got where we are now, the direction we’re likely to head, and what adjustments we need to make in our course heading. It breeds impatience – demanding that those who reflect should move on. The attitude is also tinged with arrogance – assuming people who review experiences have such a lowly status and recommend they move on to another level. To avoid reflection is to stymie healing, growth, understanding, character development.” Yes it is arrogant to tell someone “why don’t you move on.” It is also emotionally abusive. For someone to say that to me is crossing my boundaries and my human right to make my own decisions, take things at my own pace, think my own thoughts, and assume that position in my life for me. As such it is an attempt to devalue me. Any attempt to devalue another person is not love. Loving myself involves understanding this and not accepting it. The first thought that crossed my mind this morning was: if you can’t discern the counterfeit, how can you discern the genuine? There is a reason why the Bible lays things out in contrasts, so you can clearly see the difference. Understanding what it is to respect God also involves understanding what disrespect is. Furthermore, how can you really love and respect others unless you really understand what it is not? Maybe that’s the real point of this thread. At least it’s an underlying one.

That was pretty profound T-bone!!! Really hit the nail on the head for me this morning.

Oh Shifra. I know you are ok now. At the same time, I went through something similar. I read your post and I cried and cried. I cried for me, for you, for all who have gone through this. I know what it is to hug your knees and think God is gone and I am all alone. It is the most horrible experience I can think of. You bet it was taking God’s name in vain and you bet it was abuse. Was this what God had in mind? I think not. Thanks for your post. I am fairly certain it was really hard to write. It’s hard to go back there. It’s hard to remember. Let’s face it. It’s hard to face. What courage it takes to look something like that in the eye and say, “I don’t care what you say, I am OK.” “You brought me to this degradation, but that doesn’t mean I really am.” That is YOUR opinion.

Rascal: That was one terrific post. You are quite right. It is a tough thing to face. I struggle with this thread daily because I really don’t particularly like thinking about it. It would be very easy to abandon the entire thing. It seriously would. What actually started the wheels turning in my head was reading about the women vp sexually abused as well as children sexually abused by leadership. I realized something is far more rotten in Denmark than I previously supposed. And, it isn’t as if I didn’t know about it. I knew this from my Waydale days. Yet until now I just wasn’t ready to examine it for what it is. How exactly does that fit into this picture? How do you reconcile this with a ministry that teaches the Bible? I am starting to understand. In a way I am sorry about talking about my childhood. In another way, it was important to me to make it perfectly clear I am not having an intellectual or theoretical conversation with you. This isn’t something we can beat around the bush with and understand. Now let’s look at this for what it is, as hard as that may be. And as you do, please remember you are not responsible for actions that are not your own. I also want to remind you, your experiences don’t define you. Your response does. Mentally, I so often go back to T-bone’s conscience thread. I hope you know how really important it was. Without it, I would not understand what I do today. It really was a very necessary piece of the puzzle. In the words of my great aunt: Life isn’t for sissies. I also go back to Eye’s backbone thread, and some synonyms I posted there: moral fiber, strength of character, stamina, fortitude, courage, guts, grit, determination, resilience, self-discipline. We had those things. We still do.

I had to laugh at your last post, Eyes. I remember how awkward it was trying to explain to my parents why my ex and I couldn’t make even a minor decision without the approval of leadership. Once again: Great post JJ! Abuse in any form isn’t funny. It isn’t theoretical. Spiritual abuse is just as terrible as any other kind, if not more so. I’ve tried to express that it takes something quite wrong with a person to be willing to abuse others, especially on a regular basis. It is harming others without mercy or conscience. Most certainly it is the exact opposite of love God and love your neighbor. I really use to see twi more in the sense of doctrinal error. I saw vp as someone who sinned greatly and perhaps a false prophet. I am finally getting around to looking at him in light of the fruit of his ministry. There are a lot of things I can conclude simply from having lived with abusive people, looking at what the Bible says, as well as having been in twi. I never knew him personally, but I can certainly deduce a lot without having to guess what was in his mind or his character. It is obvious. Eyesopen’s Romans post got me thinking about people, especially leaders, who claim to know God but whose lives and ministries don’t reflect even the basics. Tts 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: Tts 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. The word “blameless” means a leader is to live righteously sets a proper example. Tts 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; “Selfwilled” has to do with pride and stubbornness and being focused on oneself. He was not to be quick tempered, or drink a lot. A “striker” has to do with violence in words and/or actions. “Filthy lucre” is inappropriate desire for money. Tts 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; He thinks clearly, is proper in his behavior toward others, has a right relationship with God, and he has self control. Tts 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. Tts 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: “Unruly and vain talkers” talk the Bible but it doesn’t produce godly results. The result is deceiving, and in this context, particularly true of legalism. Tts 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. They were teaching things they shouldn’t for dishonorable gain. It could be ego or money. Those things a leader is not to be pretty much describe twi to me…A ministry built on taking the Lord’s name in vain and legalism is obviously not going to produce godly results. I would have to put most of twi in the category of unruly and vain talking.

Exposure of oneself is difficult. To be honest I don’t feel real comfortable with it. However, I am going to put some of myself out there. I have a reason. That is, I have a great heart’s desire to make this subject understandable as possible. I am copying and pasting a section of my post from the “seizures” thread. ”As a child, I was physically and sexually abused. I don’t recall when the beatings started other than I don’t remember a time when it wasn’t going on. It was brutal and multiple times per day. I don’t remember a day I wasn’t one solid red-purple bruise from my neck down to my knees. I prayed every day for a year I would die so I could go to heaven. During the summer after second grade, I talked to a neighbor about it. She took me to church and I got born again when I heard about Jesus. That night while taking a bubble bath I spoke in tongues. Things changed after that. I would get thoughts to say this or that when I could sense a beating about to come and say them. He would stop in his tracks. The anger I could see would disappear like flipping a switch. I weighed 55 lbs. pounds at the time and I spiritually took control of the house. I knew perfectly well I was dealing with spirits. My terror of him was not greater than my desire to protect a younger brother and sister. I really did it more for them. I lived this way for another four years day in and day out.” As an adult, I spent 17 yrs. with an abusive husband while being in an abusive religion. I’ve read a gazillion books on the subject of abuse. However, the majority deal with it as someone who hasn’t experienced it. I can tell you I was an abused child. You can apprehend, you cannot comprehend, no matter what I say. You weren’t there, you didn’t feel the feelings, you didn’t have to deal with your mind and the situation. I have no degrees or credentials. I have my life, the books I’ve read, and what Scripture I know. I do not ask for or need pity. I am a child of God and I am OK. More than OK. I’ve journeyed out to a great degree, but as of this date I am not completely satisfied. I simply want to pass on what I know at this point. As I do, it becomes more clear to me also. I want to leave you with this thought: Experience does not define a person. One’s response does.

Fascinating post, Eyes. I reread Romans 1 and a verse caught my attention: Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; The point of this verse is not that the truth isn’t known but is held in unrighteousness. Galatians 3:1-3 NIV You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Bewitched is an interesting word. In that culture, it was understood as like an “evil eye,” and if one looked at it, a spell would be cast. Breaking the spell involved looking away. The Galatians were under legalism to carry out their relationship with God. Paul was saying they were looking at the wrong thing. As long as they did so, they were blind to the truth and caught up in their own human efforts. The Galatians were not living according to God’s standards, but the standards of men…their interpretation of proper living. It was controlling and abusive. Using an example everyone is familiar with, believing was certainly taught in twi. In practice, it was not believing but mental human effort. The focus was not on God’s ability to do but our own mental gymnastics to get results. Our lives were judged in light of how successful we were, not according to Biblical standards, but twi’s. Such as, believe to get enough money to go to the Rock. Abuse is about power, but it is also about control. Control is exercising more authority over another than is rightful. It can be either covert (subtle) or overt (obvious) or a mixture. I read in a post somewhere (I think it was Tonto that said it in the thread on the False prophet thread) about vp screaming about mints. That is overt. The target is expected to perform at an unreasonable level to satisfy the controller. Spiritual abuse is also psychological and has this effect of bewitching. The spell is not only doctrinal error but emotional. When people are being abused, they tend not to see it for what it is and get caught up in trying by their human effort to meet unreasonable standards to maintain what they believe is God’s standards. The difficulty of this leads to guilt and shame and even more effort to try harder. It is much the same as an abusive marriage. If one does not know what a healthy relationship looks like, or if one is unaware of what abuse is, it was quite difficult to recognize. It starts out friendly and caring. It looks good. Slowly the abuse creeps in. More and more is expected. Boundaries are lost. It is human nature to want to get along with others and to want to please others. Children by nature want to please their parents. We wanted to please God. It is also human nature to respond with more effort when we feel we have failed. It is an attempt to regain that sense of caring and acceptance. The twig setting put a lot of pressure on people in this regard. The level of control twi exercised would not have been possible without the frequent small group meetings with tc’s given as much authority has they had.

Rascal: I read your posts and I can almost feel it myself. No kidding, I can. It reminds me of something else I learned in that tiny little church. (I don’t go there anymore because they starting doing the performance thing.). The Pastor mentioned often how God looks for us, calls out to us, beckoning us back to Him. It’s such a tenderhearted, non-condemning thing. The first thing God said to Adam and Eve was where are you? He knew full well where they were. And then He covered them. It’s not a derail at all, Rascal. I think it is an important perspective on the healing aspect that no matter what we’ve been through and no matter how far off the road we get, we aren’t out of the reach of God’s love the instant the time is right. Oh well. If I say anymore I’ll just repeat you and you said so beautifully… Whether we get it at all, He does. That’s a really comforting thought, Rascal, and it really gives me a lot of peace.

Rascal: That’s a really heartwarming, wonderful story. We really are HIS kids aren’t we?

Thanks you guys, I am really glad you got something from it. I was just thinking about some recent threads is all…I enjoyed your post, JJ. “I would rather cuss like a sailor than tell someone that God had told me anything.” –Eyes. Me too… Some other things: I think about vp claiming to fool someone he was speaking in tongues and interpreting in Greek, yet he was not at all fluent in Greek, well, just all the things he lied about to support the idea that he was the mog and a Bible expert. How about all the claims of revelation? “This is the guidance…” I could give many examples you guys are familiar with. Twi was in essence built on vp’s premise that it was ok to take the Lord’s name in vain. He lived it as a lifestyle. On top of this premise he stacked a mountain of “knowledge.” It isn’t surprising to me he went that route. It doesn’t surprise me he collected a bunch of stuff that didn’t address that sin isn’t OK and treated God like a genie in a bottle, heavy focus on the spirit realm, fear motivation, etc. In that light, I made the statement on another thread that it is interesting that the first thing so many exwayfers turn to is love God love your neighbor, almost instinctively…which leads me to believe twi was a thing we put on for awhile that caused us to behave strangely but I don’t think it was the real us. While I understand all this, I still don’t understand what it is in a person that makes them think abuse is OK. I don’t think disrespect for God and others completely explains it. What causes the disrespect? Or am I trying to dig too far? Why do I care? Because part of recovery is understanding the abuser. Because I lived in this mess for 20 yrs. and I still don’t fully understand how it affected me and why.

I wasn’t very clear Eyes, was I? What I meant was the regular inappropriate use of knowledge indicates disrespect for God and people in the same manner that any abuse is disrespectful. Logically, the disrespect must be there first. Yes, of course, then the knowledge becomes the tool or vehicle for how the attitude is expressed. Attaching to it that it is God’s will and the fact that the knowledge is about God, then indirectly and directly God is used for a baseball bat also. So taking the Lord’s name in vain is the state for lack of a better word, and the means is knowledge. Knowledge isn’t a problem, the inappropriate use of it is. Thus I conclude, the root of the problem isn’t just the fact that knowledge was elevated above all else. Or even that fact that it was misused. I am merely pointing out the disrespect is an issue. I’m really not looking at this from the point of view of us individuals so much as the organization itself. I think very few of us ever had any intention of disrespecting God. Far from it. I surely have no intention of condemning anyone. It’s in the past, what can we do about it now except try to understand it so we don’t inadvertently keep up the stuff? We were caught up in something that wasn’t what it appeared to be, imo. It took going to a tiny little church in a Podunk town to find out after all these years what it means to take the Lord’s name in vain. Kinda important information, I think. And, love ya back!

David Johnson & Jeff VanVonderen in The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse describe the action: "It's possible to become so determined to defend a spiritual place of authority, a doctrine or a way of doing things that you wound and abuse anyone who questions, or disagrees, or doesn't 'behave' spiritually the way you want them to. When your words and actions tear down another, or attack or weaken a person's standing as a Christian- to gratify you, your position or your beliefs while at the same time weakening or harming another- that is spiritual abuse." Abuse in general, whether it is spiritual, emotional, physical, verbal, or sexual is more about power than anything. It is the use of power that crosses boundaries that one way or another denies or attempts to deny the target the opportunity to say “no” to hurtful things. The perpetrators for reasons of their own give themselves permission to wound the hearts, minds, and bodies of others, and somehow this is OK with them. This is of course, grossly disrespectful and callous. No human being exists for the improper use or mistreatment of others, or the means to someone else’s ends, even if it’s just ego to “win” an argument. The weaknesses of another are not more important than my well being. Recovery partially involves understanding that this isn’t OK, and yes, it’s OK to say “no.” It involves resetting boundaries. Numerous books have been written on this subject, I am simply trying to define my terms. That’s the psychological perspective. From a Biblical perspective, the use of God to control or otherwise harm others is many things, but bottom line, it is taking God’s name in vain. Breaking this commandment could involve cuss words, but it is any frivolous or wrongful use of His name. Ex: “God told me,” “God inspired me,” as though the words and actions have His stamp of approval. It is of course, the ultimate baseball bat, and saying it doesn’t make it so. Twi was built on this. Everything from non-existent snow and vp teaching the Word like it hadn’t been known since the first century, to false accusation of devil spirit possession, to “I believed for a parking space.” Or just plain old, “I know spiritually what you should think or do. Here’s my list of verses, now you should live as I think and change your ways.” If you think about it, if God is truly behind something, it isn’t necessary to say so. It will be obvious. When He isn’t, that’s obvious too after awhile. Works indicate believing, not words… Taking the Lord’s name in vain permeated twi in every regard. With this level of lack of respect for God and individuals, it isn’t hard for me to understand other types of abuse went on also. About the time I think I’ve really gotten to the bottom of what was wrong with twi, I realize there is yet another layer. I see now the “knowledge” trip was just a symptom. As much as I would like to finally put this all to rest and behind me, I just can’t yet. I get really tired of Gs sometimes. I tell myself I am done and won’t be back. Then I come back because I am just not done. Something isn’t.

In no particular order: Wordwolf: Exemplary thinking skills. I really wish you’d do more in the doctrinal section and start threads of your own…I reckon you have your reasons. Beyond that, I have doubts I would have ever put twi into perspective without your threads. I don’t know you personally, but certainly wouldn’t mind it. VP in Wonderland by WW, must read as far as I am concerned. There is another I can’t think of right now. Wish both of those were put somewhere easy to find. You have me beat in the brains department, yet you are always nice and respectful to me. I appreciate that. JavaJane: Interesting, thought provoking, and good hearted. Hammeroni: You can nail in one sentence what takes me several paragraphs to say. I enjoy your posts, and your sense of humor. Hope you defeat the Borg… Dmiller: Level headed and balanced. Bolshevic: I enjoy your posts also. Eyesopen: Wow. One of the few people I’ve known that can handle shoes off, let your hair down and be honest and caring at the same time. Smart too. Also, you’ve helped me a lot in numerous ways. You really are wonderful. T-bone: Funny, intelligent, and brings a lot to the table in any discussion. ChattyKathy: A sweetheart. Rascal: Fiesty and profound. Jeaniam: Get her in an arena that involves sheer thinking skills, and she shines. Others I enjoy reading: Catcup, Dooj, Year2027, Waysider, anotherDan, Templelady, Abigail, Ex10, I dunno. Listener. Where have you been? That’s all I can think of off the top of my head. I know there are others. There are some good people here. We were before, and we are still. Twi was just a suit of something we realized we didn’t want to wear at some point. It pinched, confined, it did a lot of things. It was…well, can’t be described in one paragraph. It hurt, it was confusing. Some experienced greater pain than others. Some experienced pain I can’t even imagine. Love is a lot of things. Most of all I think it is acceptance. As is. You don’t have to be some certain way to be OK with me. I hope I don’t have to be either. Can I make some mistakes in front of you? I hope so. I’m just me, I can’t be anything else. My performance days are over. So are yours, as far as I am concerned.

Lol. The next time I bump into someone I will declare them to be a relative.... Great post, Eyes.

I also believed the part in PFAL about "fear motivation" and didn't allow anyone to control me through fear, more or less.—Oldies I understand. I had lots of fear about leaving, I just wasn’t recognizing it. Leaving was unthinkable. I never understood or recognized the control by fear until at least a year after I left. In any case, you did use your backbone, Oldies. Maybe it wasn’t some big process for you.

I think lots of us experienced some of the same things in twi. Generally, my view of my involvement was having free choices. "freely avail", as they say . I was free not to go to twig, or to leave, and did so on some occasions for several months. I made the choice to go back too. I accept full responsibility for my choices. This doesn't mean I always was in full control. For instance, I went WOW twice, and was in the corps for a few months. During those venues, I relinquished my will and wishes to someone else's, in many cases. This was done freely and for a purpose. To grow, to learn. Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. I accepted it as a challenge and look back on those days as good learning.--Oldiesman Well that’s certainly a far healthier attitude and perspective than I had. For me, it was do this, do that, or else be a grease spot…and no where else to go. That’s sort of the enigma of it. Yes on the one hand these were my final decisions, but since I believed twi was the only place to be, they were sort of under duress. My own belief system held me in jail. Weird, huh? Like you, I do in fact accept responsibility for my decisions, including not thinking for myself. I also agree with you that submitting to others to grow and learn is a good thing in and of itself. I have a question for you, and if you want to answer, I assume you got exposed to the idea twi was the “true household” and walking away made you a “copout” not only to twi but to God. How did you process that in your own mind? I am asking so I can step into your shoes and maybe you can also step into mine. When we’re done, maybe we both learn something and become better people for it. Let’s cross this bridge, whatcha think? Templelady: Good for you. I can sure identify with your post. Been there, done that. Btw congrats on your healing!!!! Fantastic news!!! Our little stint in the Way in many ways has allowed us to see these subtle things. Most others that did not have twi in their background do not see them as easily until after the fact. We are of course not perfect, but it was an experience that most of us can say we learned that little bit of perception from. For example if we were manipulated then we see when someone is trying to manipulate us now more readily. Something like that. Ahh...it is good to see that onion again...can I get a parfait? --Eyes Only if you share…I’m going to be assertive with backbone. I want the part with the cherry on top. Ha! The rest of your post, yep. I agree. Isn’t Grease Spot great? It’s the people here that make that way…You have a thought. I have a thought. Together we make some sense of things. A Borg of a different kind...

In terms of behavior, I think you were right the first time, Eyes. I think in terms of character though, that backbone was underneath the passivity and subservience, keeping us going. Recovery is sort of like pealing away the layers of an onion (the false doctrines and adaptive behaviors) and seeing there was a diamond at the core of it. The adaptive behaviors weren’t so great, but that doesn’t mean WE weren’t. This really is a great thread, and it is prompting me to really think about this stuff. Oldiesman, my incident relates to twi recovery. I was trying to relate something specific to help make Eyes’ point more clear, for the benefit of others. And, it’s taken me several posts to get very clear about it myself…this thread is sort of a work in progress. Maybe things will clear up for you after awhile. If you experienced the twi phase of having to get permission to move a muscle, and understand that as passivity as a result of abnormal control, then perhaps you can understand there is a process to becoming a “normal” adult again. By that I mean regaining the confidence to make your own choices. Not everyone experienced the same things in twi or even reacted to it in the same way, so I can understand it can be hard to understand experiences that are not your own.

Some synonyms for “backbone” according to the thesaurus in Word: moral fiber, strength of character, stamina, fortitude, courage, guts, grit, determination, resilience, and self-discipline. I thought these were nifty. Thinking about twi, we never would have gotten through it in one piece without some or all of the above. It takes all that just to deal with the spiritual abuse day after day. It also takes all of it to put oneself back together again afterward. Then the day arrives when the confusion is kinda cleared up, and it's possible to stand up and speak up without tons of doubts. Rediscovering one's backbone... And maybe in the process we discover we were worthwhile all along.

There is a difference between being passive, aggressive, and assertive. The lines between them can be fine. Passive is saying “yes” when you want to say “no.” Aggressive is saying “no” in an abusive manner. Assertive is having a strong enough sense of self and the confidence to just say “no.” An adamant “no” is OK when the need arises. I think assertive is a synonym for “backbone.” I also think that passive or aggressive by nature excludes genuine kindness, mercy, grace, and even the ability to help others. Assertiveness or backbone is having enough courage of your convictions to help yourself and others. It is honest. Passivity/spineless isn’t honest. But, aren't there times in life, where we extend a hand of kindness and compassion, mercy and grace, where ourselves don't matter so much, because someone is in dire need of ........for lack of a better word.......help? Yeah, Jesus took a stand, but he never expected people to come up to his standards, he met them where they were. –ex10 I think it takes a strong sense of self and backbone/assertiveness to genuinely do this.