another spot

P. S. Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Thank you, Evan. I mean that in all sincerity. I think we do have free will, and by that I mean our minds have the ability to make choices and decisions. If we didn’t, we would be barely above a vegetative state. I do wholehearted agree though, God is sovereign and not at all dependent on either our wills or our “believing.” I only use that word on this board. I prefer “trust,” which keeps waythink out of my brain. At the same time, God doesn’t force anything on us against our wills. He does do things to help people along to change their minds and carry out His will. I am thinking of both Balaam and Jonah on that one. I also agree a “self focus” is not a good thing. It is a quick road to self condemnation, amongst other things. The point is to rely on God and not on ourselves. I think also about Deuteronomy where God put in front of Israel both blessing and cursing. He put in front of them how it is, they had to make a choice, and He let them choose. It is true the word free will is not in the Bible, but I think it is implied. As far as the Shunamite woman is concerned, she trusted God in a general sense. The prophet wanted to return her love and care and God gave her the desire of her heart. According to Hebrews, it is impossible to please God without faith (trust) and He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. I don’t however read that to mean she was specifically believing for a child. I just see God’s grace in action toward a great woman that trusted Him. I think the thing about Abraham is he already trusted God before He made the promises about progeny. Also, the fact that it was quite impossible for Abraham and Sarah to have children is significant because it made it plain that this was a pure act of God and God alone. At the same time, Abraham trusted God would bring to pass what He said, with the result that Abraham was called the father of all those who believe. God was simply bestowing great grace on someone who trusted Him while He also brought to pass what He wanted. I also agree that God doesn’t function according to either our free will or “believing” in terms of His sovereign will. Yes, we would be hosed, because, spiritually speaking we are a bit dumb….I think that thinking our wills and our “believing” determines what God can or can’t do, or what even what His will is, is putting the cart in front of the horse.

Evan: if that’s all you found wrong with my posts, then I’ll take that as a compliment. Technically, yes of course, you are correct. From my pov though, when something is put in front of us to believe or disbelieve it is a request and not a demand from the stand point of freewill. I do see your point however, and I will try to be more careful with my wording in this regard in the future.

“To further define my original post, which seemed clear enough to me, and still does, here's my idea for a thread: Reading is good for learning. I'd like to propose a novel concept: read the article, and see if you can understand what the author is saying. Really. Then agree/disagree/discuss.”—Dan To me your comments reflect a chastisement for not understanding what you wanted, which as far as I am concerned, you did not in fact make clear in the beginning. The use of the phrase “novel concept” reflects you don’t think the above posters understand that idea. You further imply no one understood the article, and possibly not capable “see if you can understand. Really.” In general, your comments communicate to me you don’t think we’re too bright. You are of course entitled to your opinions of us, but I respectfully disagree. I am personally quite capable of conversation on most any intellectual level you’d care to dish out. Under the circumstances, I will not be participating in this particular one any further.

Yep. Pretty fantastic all things considered. God asked ONE person, Abraham to believe to have progeny from which the Christ line would come. Before that Noah believed, else all mankind would have been destroyed right then. The magi were taught hundreds of years before Christ to recognize the celestial signs and thus bring the money Mary and Joseph needed (as WW pointed out). So many things and events were involved and all leading up to the final victory. And so often hinging on one or few persons…And most of the time most people turning their backs on God. Did mankind deserve it? Not on the whole. I think of Cyrus King of Persia. Isaiah via revelation from God wrote about him 200 years before he was born. Cyrus would later read it and deliver Israel. Jonah swallowed by the big fish for three days and nights. He didn’t want to confront Ninveh (gentiles) for fear they would in the future attack Israel. Then God said to Jonah, “Is it right for you to be angry about the plant?” And he said, “It is right for me to be angry, even to death!” But the LORD said, “You have had pity on the plant for which you have not labored, nor made it grow, which came up in a night and perished in a night. And should I not pity Nineveh, that great city, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left; and much livestock?” This is one of my favorite verses: “persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left; and much livestock?” To me that’s really funny…dry humor. Pretty fantastic. How many marvelous things did God do over the centuries that were never recorded? I would expect a lot.

Isn't paganism in a nutshell self service by means of multiple "gods?" I. E. How to get what I want???

Something I read this morning: Mat 25:34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Mat 25:35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Mat 25:36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Mat 25:37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink? Mat 25:38When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]? Mat 25:39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? Mat 25:40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me. Mat 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Mat 25:42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: Mat 25:43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mat 25:44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Mat 25:45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. Mat 25:46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Good article, Dan. The first thought that crosses my mind, is grace is not the opposite of law, it is a different way of living and relating to God (both us to God and God to us). The emphasis and framework is different. Law is works. Grace still contains the moral precepts but relies more on a firmer and clearer recognition that God is our sufficiency (His power toward us). The point of grace is to understand that it’s not by the light of our own sparks. In reality, grace is also about service. The root word for charismata (spiritual gifts) is charis (grace). I liked the remarks about the complaints of Israel about their food. Man seems to want to think God exists for man and not the other way around. This is reflected in serving God in order to receive (which ends in legalism and self service), instead of in order to serve others.

I thought about that too, WW, ever since I read: Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive. I was thinking several posts ago this may be the underlying principle for how God deals with the free will of others to exercise evil and good to bring about His own will. Not just in this record…In a lot of ways, the record of Joseph parallels the story of Jesus. Luk 22:2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people. Luk 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. I am thinking that is how He deals with Satan as well. Ultimately, it was Satan that wanted Jesus dead. The resurrection of Jesus delivered mankind and will bring about the eventual demise of Satan and his cohorts. Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power (exousia) of death, that is, the devil; Jesus gave up his own life and submitted to being killed. He prayed not to have to do it. God still willed it so He could bring to pass great victory. God knew ahead of time when He promised the Redeemer that Satan would want to kill him. He used that knowledge to turn the tables on him. Jesus still had a choice. He also knew ahead of time what God had in mind. Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Mat 25:32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: I’ve been thinking about this in light of the book of Job. Satan is allowed freewill with limitations. He worked with people to afflict Job. The error of Job’s friends was to think Job brought this on himself via sin. Even Job didn’t understand. Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Job 38:2 Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? In all three records, evil was thought against someone who didn’t deserve it, but the end result was greater good for the person, and in two of them great good for others. That’s where God’s justice comes into play. God’s providential and moral will at work. To be truthful, I think WW’s post on the tares goes a long way to make this comprehensible. That is, God allows evil and good to co-exist until the fullness of time. In the meantime, He continues to work the counsel of His own will in spite of the situation via the principle of Gen. 50:20, which allows Him to work His own will without overstepping freewill of anyone. In the doing of it, He doesn’t compromise His sovereignty or righteousness. These two things are comprehensible in light of the ultimate goal of a perfect universe.

Socks: TOO FUNNY!!! Would anyone care to interpret this post? I like replicate better than explicate. Just my POV. Forget the sandbags and gas masks. My pink high heeled shoes work just fine. I prefer duct tape for adversarial individuals. Beam me up Scotty...

As I considered the end-times, it occurred to me that they function as an intensification of the process by which souls determine their orientation, whether towards God or away from God. The process will be compressed in something like a 7-year timeframe. That's a life's decisions and actions squeezed into 7 years. That's why I considered it like a centrifuge. It will speed up the process, and do what was already happening- just a lot slower. As you can see, the same process, just a lot slower- happens day by day, decision by decision, right now.—WW A good bit like chaff and wheat. There are interesting verses in the O.T. that compare our lives to the process of refining gold (by heating) and getting out the impurities. You’re right. That process takes place by decision. There is a story someone told me about his three year old daughter. There was a baited mouse trap in the kitchen. She was headed toward it. He said,”Don’t touch that. That will hurt you if you do that.” She kept moving toward it, with her finger held out. He kept repeating himself. She touched it anyway and the trap shut on her finger. I would not have done this personally. I would have moved the trap, owing to the fact she was only three. I mention this because in spite of the fact that God lays out black and white choices, He does get it that we don’t a lot of the time, and factors that in. Compared to Him we are less than three year olds. Multiple chances and multiple warnings. Another words, He works with us in such a way that whatever our decisions are, we truly did decide. Otherwise He wouldn’t truly be just.

I'm not familiar with any ex-post-Way-centric teachings on God knowing/not-knowing whatever it is He's supposed to know/not-know. I imagine, guess it has to do with our free will, freedom of choice and God's desire to allow that to function freely, IE, if we are free to choose and God allows that, He doesn't clearly know what we're going "to do". ? I'm guessing it's something like that but not sure.—Socks I think the whole point of free will is to make a decision for or against God. Every creature God ever made (including angels) have been given that choice. Jesus had to make a choice too (the temptations). Why? So that when God brings about His perfect universe all that are in it will have made a clear decision. That’s why it will be and can be final. God wants those who are in it to have made that choice, else He could just “raise up stones” to be His. God does foreknow what those decisions will be. That’s well documented in previous posts. Here’s another example: Isaiah 44-45 writes about Cyrus who would be king of Persia 200 yrs. later. He would deliver God’s people from a situation that hadn’t happened yet. One of the ways God proves He is Who He says He is, is by the fact He does foreknow in such detail. As WW mentioned above, the fact God does foreknow is part of His trustworthiness. Otherwise, why should we believe most of what He says? O. T. history would have been quite different if when the prophets told the people of future consequences for not choosing Him would have been believed. One example is the Babylonian captivity. Choosing God is believing what He says is true. God’s integrity was called into question in the garden of Eden. God told them if you do this, then this (future) will happen. If His foreknowledge is in doubt, then so is His integrity. They are intertwined and can’t be separated. To state it another way: to doubt His foreknowledge is to doubt His integrity. Not picking on you Socks. Your post caused me to think this through even more deeply.

Interesting…WW. Would you care to elaborate on that? Something else I thought of. If God were to tolerate sin or evil, how could we trust Him? That goes against God is beneficent.

One other thought: Abraham is referred to in the Bible as a friend of God. Yet not even he was considered righteous by God’s standards. Romans says God reckoned righteousness to him because of his believing. In a similar manner, righteousness is reckoned and given to us when we believe the gospel of Christ, thus putting us in a position to not be destroyed. It is an interesting way to give us something we didn’t have, could not get on our own. The result: Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins: So by choosing with our freewill to believe we get this. God worked out a way to overcome our sin problem without overstepping our freewill.

I thought it might be interesting to consider this topic in light of God’s ultimate goal: peace within His universe. Peace, freedom and sin cannot co-exist. God created angels. Some of these used their freewill to sin. Then man came along and by way of the influence of the serpent sinned as well. The plan to acquire ultimate peace for all God had created was Jesus. Jesus not only redeemed man, He will destroy the devil and the angels who sinned in the future. In that light, I can start to understand the penalty of death for sin. The only way to make it gone is destruction, which is ultimately what will happen. Jesus paid the price so all mankind would not be destroyed. Yet God doesn’t like death. He considers life precious. Confronted with wrong freewill decisions there is no alternative. At the same time He is unwilling to overstep freewill. The lack of freewill is slavery. So what does He do? He works within things to bring about His ultimate desire, including evil. Gen 50:17 So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him. Gen 50:18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we [be] thy servants. Gen 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for [am] I in the place of God? Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive. I believe this last verse is the underlying principle. Don’t ask me to explain it right now. I can’t. I don’t know if I ever will. I don’t have foreknowledge, ha! Thinking back WW’s post about the tares. God is doing this even with the angels. Not in the sense He is going to make more (as far as I know), but in the sense they both continue to exist until He is ready to complete His ultimate goal. Clearly God’s foreknowledge goes all the way back to before He created angels.

Antichrists: 1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1Jo 2:19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. The basic idea of an antichrist is they claim to have a special anointing. By way of this, they set themselves up in place of Christ in the lives of Christians. An antichrist is a false teacher. They go out on their own. This is set in contrast with the verse below. 1Jo 2:20 But ye have an unction (anointing) from the Holy One, and ye know all things. The word for anointing according to Thayer’s: 1) to anoint a) consecrating Jesus to the Messianic office, and furnishing him with the necessary powers for its administration b) enduing Christians with the gifts of the Holy Spirit This verse is making the point that all Christians are anointed and therefore not to believe some special anointing. 1Jo 2:21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. They teach lies. 1Jo 2:22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 1Jo 2:23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also]. The word for deny is not meaning they say Christ doesn’t exist. They teach false things about Him and deny Him and God in the manner that they live and teach. Their teaching will promote lawlessness. 1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life. 1Jo 2:26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. They wouldn’t succeed in seducing Christians if they weren’t “teaching” the Bible. 1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. These verses in essence describe the cult phenomena. This chapter emphasizes the need to abide in Christ in life style in contrast to the false teaching that promotes and ignores lawlessness (sin). And tying into what WW posted, these are the preceding verses that introduce the subject of antichrists: 1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 1Jo 2:17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. Once again you see the motive of false teachers/antichrists.

You bet. This is a subject I haven’t put a lot of thought into in the past. I do have at this stage a clear mental picture of God (in so far as it’s possible) and how He deals with us humans that I did not have before that I can apply to my day to day life. I see more clearly my free will and how God works with me. One of my still current post-twi concerns is clear up exactly how me and God is supposed to work…. The most remarkable thing is it opened up an understanding of God’s grace in my life. By grace I mean His unearned willingness and ability. (I posted on this aspect in detail on Dan’s thread in the decaffeinated section, so won’t repeat it here). I do intend to take the posts and copy/paste into a permanent document when it’s done. You may feel like you're talking to yourself, but you're not... :)

Larry, Seems to me if you are serious about getting an answer to your question, the logical place to start is to find out whether or not it is true God regenerates people’s hearts. If you don’t have a concordance, you can access one at online.bible. I could put in the time for you, but since it’s your question it would seem reasonable for you to put the time into it on your own. Then if you’re unable to answer it, ask for help at that point, and see if anyone has the time and mutual desire to study it with you. It also seems to me that WordWolf is smart, but being older and wiser than my twi days, I no longer rely on any one person for information.

Thank you WW. I understand now. You discussed “All Loving” on your post #29, page 2. Here’s some quotes from it: “If all three statements are true, then there's something fundamentally missing from our understanding, something that makes all of this make sense together, how a God of Love finds it sensible not to blast every instance of evil from existence the moment it happened. It is my conviction that this is true and that Scripture teaches this. It is my belief that the matter missing is one of both FREE WILL and of the COMPLETE PICTURE.” --WW “Am I stating I KNOW and can explain all suffering? No. I'm saying that the little I DO know-and that's little enough but it's enough for you to see the basics- is enough for me to be confident that trusting God and waiting for the ENTIRE PICTURE will mean it will all make COMPLETE sense LATER.”—WW For me personally I have no trouble accepting that there is evil or that bad things happen in light of God is love because I also believe He is righteous and just. I believe His judgments are just whether that is always evident right now or not. I would guess His righteousness and justice far exceed anything we can conceive of as well.

WW: I believe this is the first time I read something of yours I flat don’t understand. “Consider a 3-dimensional being-such as one of us- attempting to interact with a realm where everything is 2-Dimensional. They 2D'ers would not be able to perceive all of us in their realm-their realm doesn't HAVE enough dimensions to show us. We would be perceived only when and where we intersect their realm- thus, we would APPEAR 2-Dimensional, and only existing as the part that intersects theirs. If we rested, say, our fingertips there, we would be perceived as 10 flat points- which is all they can perceive. A 2-D'er would have great difficulty in understanding a 3rd dimension they have no method of perceiving at all. The only way it COULD perceive a 3rd Dimension would be for a 3-D'er to pluck them from their realm and show them existence in 3 axes of direction-at which point, it may perceive its own realm as greatly limited. (Comic-book fans may be familiar with the 5th Dimension of Zrrff, home of Mr Mxyzptlk, Qwsp, Johnny/Jakeem Thunder's Thunderbolt, and Bat-Mite. One JLA/JSA crossover shows Captain Marvel and Green Lantern in the 5th Dimension, looking like flat playing cards, as they interact with the natives, who are simplifying themselves to interact with them. Several natives travel to Earth, contracting from 5-dimensions into 3-dimensions to do so.)”--WW I basically get the point of the above. I understand what you said about Abraham, and I agree, completely. I understand the ideas separately, I just can’t connect the two together. I am not trying to be dense, obtuse, dumb….I just don’t get it. Too abstract for me? I don’t know. It isn’t for lack of reading or trying. I’ve read it over and over. It isn’t as though I can’t understand abstract ideas. I just don’t understand this one… Aside from that, I am more than delighted to see you active in the doctrinal section. This is a great thread and important, imo. I have high hopes you will get into God’s sovereignty at some point. I don’t quite buy twi’s ideas on dominion.

Larry....

These posts hurt my heart and make me sad.... :(

1Sa 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. 1Sa 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. 1Sa 8:7And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. 1Sa 8:8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. 1Sa 8:9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them. Maybe there wasn’t anyone else, or prophets other than Samuel. From reading the section, it doesn’t sound like it. At this stage the people didn’t care about God. You can see by their attitude they weren’t listening to Samuel either. Perhaps a government type rulership was the only option. Since Israel as a nation had rejected God, there wouldn’t be much to pick from for leadership. David was only what, fourteen (?) when he took on Goliath during Saul’s reign. I liked your post about God, Larry. I thought about this: Psa 139:17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! Psa 139:18 [if] I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

“Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me. Declaring the end from the beginning And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure.’” (Isaiah 46:9) 1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained (prognosko-know before) before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Clearly God already knew the fall would happen before the foundation of the world, but He had a plan. Gen 50:18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we [be] thy servants. Gen 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for [am] I in the place of God? Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive. Joseph had been sold into slavery and imprisoned. I’m sure you know the story. God worked with the evil free will decisions of the brothers to bring a great deliverance. 1Sam 15:11: I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not carried out My commands. This verse could almost make a person think God didn’t know Saul would be evil. However God predicted this in Sam. 8:11-17. I Sam. 8:18 Then you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the Lord will not answer you in that day. The ultimate result was God raised up David, from whom Christ descended. This pattern of God working with disobedience and free will decisions to bring about His own will for good, repeats over and over.

Lol. How many times in all these years did I say works for saint and sinner alike??? Never stopped to think what that meant until now...