another spot

You can take a person out of twi, but it’s kinda hard to take twi out of the person…not only that, twi isn’t “user friendly.” (Some of my weird thoughts for today). Well, I wrote this post before I saw the latest. Very possible, Listener. I know I am not ready yet to decide what exactly conscience is. Still gathering information. I am still looking at it Biblically, but also from other points of view. T-bone: Nice. I was reading Thayer’s this morning. It had some real interesting things to say about the change in emphasis from the letter of the law to the moral emphasis in NT. Unfortunately, I can’t copy and paste it. In any case, the basis of the moral emphasis is love God, love your neighbor. So it all kinda ties together. And, until just now I hadn’t thought about the sin part! You know, if it was just a matter of identifying doctrinal error to “get over it,” while a massive project, it wouldn’t be SO difficult. It isn’t just that. That is what is so intriguing about this thread. I personally want to define for myself just what happened to me, as clearly as possible. I have realized some things during the course of this thread, but I still feel like my understanding is just dancing around the edge of it so far. One thing I realized a few minutes ago: It wasn’t so much that the doctrines were such a big problem (if they were, I wouldn’t have paid much attention to twi at all). It was more the context and application of the doctrines that were so destructive. Take the law of believing for example. Had it not been used like a baseball bat, it wouldn’t have been so bad. Be indifferent to terrible tragedy, because believing was at fault. How about especially good to the household? Well that’s in the Bible. Fine. The problem was in the application. Twi was the household. Be indifferent to all others. Thus, twi redefined right from wrong in a manner that would violate the ethics of most people, Christian or not. All over the world, to be exact. So, our ethics changed, our morals changed, our beliefs regarding right from wrong changed, we suppressed our emotions, it changed who we were in some very fundamental ways. I know it affected my conscience, I’m just not sure how exactly. At a bare minimum, it was certainly sedated. I think of sedated as asleep. Turns out it’s a synonym for numb. That fits too. Hmmmm….sin. The leadership sinned ie T-bone’s post. They taught us to do the same, see paragraphs above. Hmmm, hmmm, hmmm. We did it. That by itself is a big deal.

Bolshevik: That's a great question!!! Wish I had an answer!!!! I enjoy your posts a lot. Yep, Listener, I keep thinking about it too. T-bone’s comments about morality have my attention today. I was also considering the phrase, “law written in their hearts.” What does that mean, exactly? I still don’t know, but according to Thayer’s Lexicon, “law” here refers to the moral aspects of the law, which makes sense owing to the fact Gentiles had no access to Mosaic law. In any case, below is text from Wikipedia: "Morality (from Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behaviour") refers to the concept of human ethics which pertains to matters of right and wrong — also referred to as "good and evil" — used within three contexts: individual conscience; systems of principles and judgments — sometimes called moral values —shared within a cultural, religious, secular or philosophical community; and codes of behavior or conduct morality. Personal morality defines and distinguishes among right and wrong intentions, motivations or actions, as these have been learned, engendered, or otherwise developed within each individual. Conscience refers to the impulse toward morally 'right'. For example, if a person was concerned about what is morally right, then s/he would most likely not rob a bank. The actual definition of right behavior varies according to belief system. Religious belief systems usually include the idea of divine will and divine judgment and usually correspond to a strict moral code of conduct". Still pondering.

Eyesopen: This is why while in TWI many supressed their natural "instinct" to fight or run, where an animal would not have any such inhibition when faced with such adversity. I love that sentence! lol. Makes me think of times people came down hard on me. Growling or perhaps hissing would have been pretty satisfying!

T-bone: “Which hits me as the conscience being more of a law-observer – than a lawgiver.” Yes. The conscience bears witness to but is not the source of law written in hearts by nature. There is no consistency between one man’s conscience and another’s. 1Cr 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man's] conscience? Conscience bears witness to godly behavior. 2Cr 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward. Conscience can be defiled by ungodly behavior and have dead works. Tts 1:15 Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Finally, Paul instructs people to consider conscience with regard to decision making and motives: 1Cr 10:27 If any of them that believe not bid you [to a feast], and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. ________________________________________ 1Cr 10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth [is] the Lord's, and the fulness thereof: This is an example of something not being a problem from God’s perspective, but from mans’. The law is God’s will which is perfect, and conscience is composed of man’s will, reasoning, thought processes and decisions, and may or may not reflect God’s will. Conscience is variable. Even so, God still thinks it’s important. If conscience were perfect in the sense of law giver, then it would always reflect God’s will, and it couldn’t be weak or defiled. On that basis, the tree of knowledge of good and evil can be ruled out the source of conscience because of: Gen. 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; What would make more sense, is the tree of knowledge of good and evil was the source of the law written in hearts by nature, if it weren’t for this: Hebrews 8:10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: V11: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. V 12: For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Sigh. And finally. The Bible instructs us to trust God. It never instructs us to trust our conscience or use it for guidance. If conscience were perfect and unerring, we would not need God or the Bible. Or the new birth.

You know I’ve been doing a lot of reading on the subject of conscience. I learned that theologians, sociologists, philosophers, and psychologists have been debating it for centuries. That being said, the central issue is what is it (Biblically, not a dictionary), and it’d be nice to know how did we get it, and when. Unless we can answer that question definitively, we can’t really define the impact of twi (or anything else) on conscience, never mind relate it to other parts of the mind with any authority. Beyond that, well I am not sure I still agree with my own posts… The only thing I am sure about right now, is conscience Biblically is affected by decisions/actions ie, references to a pure conscience because of actions (guilt free) and seared conscience because of actions (beyond guilt) (Jeaniam, that was sharp!). T-bone, I am not so sure Romans 1 is saying the witness within is conscience. After reading the chapter a gazillion times, the issue seems to be the witness of the power and righteousness of God (God’s qualities) within and without. I don’t see how the internal witness of God’s power and righteousness equals conscience, since conscience relates to right from wrong, not God’s qualities….and context is recognizing God vs idolatry. I’m not saying you’re not right, I just don’t see yet how you got from one to the other.

T-bone: Excellent Since you mentioned image: I wonder if at least part of made after the image of God, had to do with the fact that man as originally created had no disobedience in him?

“You shall be as gods, knowing …. The original temptation was special knowledge that would give them special results. It wasn’t sexual at all. The text doesn’t tell us what the actual act of disobedience was, other than they partook, but whatever it was, it logically had to be something that would make sense to get the result of KNOWING. It had to be something they would think was logical. And, I can understand it. We got into twi thinking we would get special knowledge. Nobody but twi had it. Once we had it, we would do special things, like stand between the devil and the rest of the world. Creepy.

An interesting point to me… When the serpent said “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil,” he spoke the truth(although he lied about you shall not surely die). V22: And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us (elohim), to know good and evil:” It seems reasonable God knew there was a possibility of disobedience. Therefore, by making it possible for Adam and Eve to have a conscience they would have an internal warning system to help them, otherwise they would be open to constant disobedience and not much holding them back. They needed to know the difference between right and wrong, as well as all mankind that would follow. This explains why He chose this particular tree. If concience is something that is a characteristic of God, then that is a good thing. That sheds some (not much) light on why it was so tempting.

“The truth of the matter is that the conscience is a warning indicator, to point out dangers and pitfalls. Can the conscience mis-identify? Sure. That's why you add THINKING to the system. Not adding thinking is just plain silly. DISMISSING the conscience and only going by logic- and, to be honest, external arguments-is to deny one warning system that alerts even when a threat hasn't been fully articulated. Without it, you're prey to any convincing-sounding argument.” That’s right. When my conscience bothers me, I feel guilty. There is an emotional response to my own conduct or motives. That is the internal guidance system if you will. If we go with the hypothesis that conscience is innate and something we are born with, then we can move on. I don’t feel guilty when I eat ham. Those whose religion forbids it, do. So, conscience is affected by beliefs. Beliefs are acquired through education. When someone agrees to and accepts that education as a belief, it is because he or she has used reasoning (or thinking), and decided this new information is right or wrong. Reason can be at variance with conscience. This is where our consciences got “sedated.” We let reason override conscience. In time, our consciences became somewhat changed. Twi changed the essence of who we were, at least to a degree. Here’s a weird thought: what would the world be like if no one had a conscience?

Wow, T-bone!! This thread is a pretty good example of ministering to others all by itself, and boy has it got me thinking! When it gets down to it, living a lifestyle of numbing yourself to your own feelings and judgment and the feelings of others in order to be obedient to God and leadership is a really perverted way of living, and it’s all fear motivated. I knew that before, it’s really sinking in right now. I had connected it to love God, love your neighbor, but did not connect it to conscience. And it took until just now, for that to sink in. Ok, a big loud duh, now... Mind boggling how much twi produces in a persons life that is opposite to what they claim. Great posts, Listener! I agree the people here are pretty great. Fellowship is a wonderful thing (please bleep out like-minded…). I always believed it was a way for God to minister horizontally, not just a bunch of meetings. They talked about full sharing, just never saw it.

likeaneagle: I've been taking a crash course. I left 7 yrs ago and flat refused to think about any of it at all. Couldn't and wouldn't deal with it. But yeah, like a washing machine. The dirt keeps coming up and I am shocked I put my valuables in it. Then I can't believe I fell for it all. Especially the mog part, most of all. We have a water problem in my town. Somehow they can't get it together to provide drinkable water. Between Jan and Feb there was a boil water order out. I didn't find out until late Feb. I am a coffee drinker. The water looked ok. I never intended to drink bad water, I just wanted coffee.

This "therefore no condemnation" thing makes my skin crawl and I don't know why right now. I read it in context, and if you lump conscience in with the flesh, then it's saying you have no conscience or your conscience can't be trusted. To me that says you can't trust yourself to know the difference between right and wrong, and ignores what T-bone said. So the next step is no matter, no condemnation. Seems like another way to tune out right from wrong. Perhaps the way it works is the conscience is a part of walking by the spirit because of "19 because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. " Well, I don't understand, so I'm not being too articulate.

Mr. Hammeroni: Ain't that the truth! likeaneagle: Hugs back! Well, 60 days in GS and I've gone from thinking vpw was flawed but not that bad, twi was more good than bad under him, Martinfail ruined it, to my post above. I can tell you quite honestly, it wasn't a quick or easy transition, and a part of my mind fought it constantly. All the while, asking myself, "am I thinking evil?" And then, just a few days ago the pieces fell into place and then I understood. A lot of folks said things quite helpful, although I didn't comment on your posts because most of the time I was pondering, pondering.

Absolutely Highway, but I didn’t know it until recently. I remember when going witnessing, we were to “look for needs.” Seems innocuous enough. We were looking for people not satisfied with their current system for managing life. People who pretty much had it together weren’t typically interested in twi. Well I was one of them. Twi offered simple solutions with what I thought had God’s stamp of approval. Cults are complicated. I was reading some more about it today. There is great disagreement amongst those in religion, sociology, and psychology on every aspect of the cult experience. I don't know if GS'rs will figure it out in total. I think each day we get a little closer to answering the question, "what happened, and why?" Answering that question helps answer the question "who am I? and why?" Then go back to the beginning and address the issues that led us to want to be taught in the first place.

I think the primary ways my own conscience was affected is the twi belief system. Things like: Be especially good to the household (only those in twi) Who is your neighbor (twi) Emotions come and go, the Word abides forever (twi version) That caused me to make decisions that were hurtful to others, ignore my feelings, and think I’d done right. The mog concept replaced Jesus Christ; vp was my pipeline to God. Not to mention, the Word replaced the “absent” Christ. Then something I learned recently. Taking the Lord’s name in vain isn’t limited to using the GD word. It is behaving in a manner disrespectful to God. It can be things like putting God’s name on something you decided or did and put God’s name on it, when He had nothing to do with it. For ex: “God told me, I was led, I believed for a parking space”, when He didn’t have anything to do with it. It is anything we do that we connect God to that doesn’t express absolute respect. It is using God’s name frivolously. Treating God like a genie in a lamp springs to mind…how about “clear and concerned” where we direct God as to how to answer prayer? Then I got my first teaching on what worship really is in church this last Sunday. It is first recognition that God is ALMIGHTY. 2nd, an attitude of humility because of point 1. 3rd, it is not doing things in order to receive from God. 4th, it is understanding that God is the audience, not the congregation. We were taught to worship God via S.I.T., a mindless thing that doesn’t address attitude. It is just as instructive to look at what was not taught, as what was… In summary, twi taught me to disrespect God, ignore Jesus Christ, and mistreat most people. This is the real reason I believe twi was/is a cult. In all ways important in my life, twi was a barrier (like a giant, poisonous mattress), and the whole time I was convinced I was right because my conscience took a back seat to my brain which was not functioning on all cylinders because it was permeated with doctrine that rotated around and reflected a disrepect for God. And in my opinion, vp’s worst sin wasn’t sexual. His worst sin is he made a living taking the Lord’s name in vain as a lifestyle and taught us to do the same. The sexual sin was just one manifestation of it. Every time he twisted the Word to justify his sin (like OT is for our learning, mentions in NT about adultery refer to spiritual adultery) p...ed all over God and then he taught it to us. Every time he took license with the Bible and justified it because he was the mog, he p...ed on God. Every time he declared God told him this or that, lied about the snow, etc. he was taking God’s name in vain as a manner of life. And he sold it to us in a class. It wasn’t ineptness. He taught us to use our minds in a way that produced evil, across the board, and ultimately to ourselves. Just calling a spade a spade. I understand now Dr. Juedes’ statement on GS Radio about wayfers coming to him after being out 20 yrs and more, still wounded. He said it was a wound to the heart. I get that. The deeper I look at it, the more appalled I am.

What happens when men of gourds have no transportation...please send money.

I reckon no escape goats for you then...are you undoing your mind? From the Dark Side, A. S.

Dr. T: I am reading your new book, Long Lines, and encountered (excuse me, found) this gem: “All the goats in the kingdom belong to the king, which means that since the O. T. is for our spurning, I intend to acquire all the goats and share my 8-track tapes with them, and perhaps a few sheep as well, in the event the goats prove stubborn.” Now I understand your need for a bus. From the Dark Side, A. S.

Keys to the undone mind. Mix the following ingredients with a mathematical aggressiveness and scientific incision: 1. Focus on redundant thoughts and repeat out loud with no regard to the things spoken. (Best done privately….) 2. Generalize, never analyze. 3. Use limited and different vocabulary from the rest of the world. Cook slowly so that it comes out perfectly half baked. Dr. T, Re the bus project: On hold due to lack of funding. Perhaps a Sock of All Ages would be a good fund raiser. In the meantime, I am sending new wheels for your skateboard and some more Band-Aids. From the Dark Side, A. S.

Same music, different notes.

n looking at this off and on but today I had to know if you had any answers to 1. How to turn your brain back on after twi? 2. How to reset your brain back on after twi? I am sure some would like to hit the reset buttom on their brains just adding a little fun to a great subject thanks thank you with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy Dearest Roy: My preacher has been talking a lot about how God comes looking for ya. If you want to be found, He will find you. It will be OK. Don't worry about your brain. It will be OK too.

Well, chin up T-bone, I did like the part about 4 simplified. From the Dark Side, A. S.

The pumps are shining brightly Now don’t you take it lightly I’m the best in centuries Bring the dough, bring the dough, all your dough. I dunno, T-Bone. My confidence is shaken. I listened to how you took off hair on fire, eyes wild, and dirty beard on your skateboard. After which, you gave an old lady a band aid with your withered arm. You called it a miracle, even though she beat you with her umbrella while screaming, “I don’t believe in your class!” Sounds a little far-fetched. And as for the man who wanted the pink drapes, well….what can I say.

"Born again of the wrong seat" Dear T-Bone: Concerning Keys to the Proper use of Drambui, ie how to rightly divide it, I submit the following chart. 1. Where it was used before 2. Context 3. To whom it was drank 4. Dang, were there 3 or 5? The numbing effects are already kicking in. As far as what to say at a time like this, I suggest "Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow." From the Dark Side, A. S.

"For this purpose - was I scared!"