another spot

This is an interesting subject I had to research for writing a trial brief. It related to undue influence with respect to the writing of a will which favored a church. By Oklahoma law (OS 15 Section 61): “Undue influence consists: 1. In the use, by one in whom a confidence is reposed by another, or who holds a real or apparent authority over him, of such confidence or authority for the purpose of obtaining an unfair advantage over him. 2. In taking an unfair advantage of another's weakness of mind; or, 3. In taking a grossly oppressive and unfair advantage of another's necessities or distress.” I think it speaks rather loudly. Been there done that with the self recriminations. It just boiled down to the abusive use of a trusted relationship that favored the individual/group over the person trusting because of the nature of the relationship. There is really nothing mystical or magical about it. Happens all the time in all arenas of life.

Arggg. The pot calling the kettle black. I am a paralegal student. Two thirds of the classes are also required in law school. Last year I took a tort law class. That covers civil wrongs. A few relevant examples: False imprisonment: based on the right to live w/o being under the physical control of another. Can be psychological. Does you will die/get possessed if you leave ring any bells? Libel: published slander. Published can be an email or internet forum. Or SNS tape. Slander: verbal slander, but published in the sense it is said to another. These two are based on the right to live w/o having ones reputation ruined by another. Speaking of which, negative things said on this forum that can’t be proven to be true could leave a person subject to a losing lawsuit by TWI. For that to happen, TWI would first have to find the person, serve him or her, and have damages exceeding $75,000 (if the person lives in a different state than Ohio). A lot of us could win a civil suit against TWI quite easily if the statute of limitations were not long ago past (one year in most cases). Ironic TWI continues to be so vigilant about its rights while it has a long history of ignoring basic human rights of followers. Civil wrongs are based on the right to privacy. Nonexistent in TWI. But back to the subject at hand. The settlement tells me some things. Their attorney knew TWI had no case to start with or figured it out during discovery. You never settle unless you are sure you will lose, or in the game of chicken the other side is willing to compromise. If client settles for no money at all: both client and attorney know there is no case or hope of winning if it goes to trial. The final irony: courts provide more justice than TWI ever thought of.

I dreamed I found a hairball in my bedroom carpet about the size of a golf ball. It looked so repulsive to me I got a potholder to pick it up. When I lifted it up, I saw underneath was a mother mouse and babies in a nest. My first reaction was to grab it all up and throw it in trash. But, as I observed the babies move I had compassion on them as living creatures and put them all carefully back in their nest and put each baby back close to its mom. I then repaired the nest. They didn’t ask to be mice. They were born that way. Yet, I didn’t want mice in my house because they will multiply within it. So I determined to let them live, care for them tenderly, and put them outside later where they could be healthy and prosper. Then I woke up. Translation: people are what they are. A living soul is valuable to God. He doesn’t look at social convention or standards. God looks on the heart and doesn’t see the same way man does. Whatever spiritual understanding we may think we have, God’s heart is enormously larger than ours. He loves what may seem repugnant to us. God is love. It is His essence. Even though man sinned and needed salvation, even though man was inferior to His standards, He lovingly provided a way. Even though our behavior and attitudes are repugnant to His ways at times, He has compassion on us to care for us and show us the way to righteousness. He cleaned us up and made us beloved and acceptable. He declared us not guilty of being mice in His house and allows us to be with Him anyway. Jesus scooped us all up (that believe) and put us back in the nest, gently guiding each back to its mom (God). Maybe we can have some of that same compassion for each other without regard for outward appearances or even behavior. And just maybe, without regard for what we receive. It is easy to hate. It takes something more to love someone as is.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me (Jesus). Eternal life is depicted in terms of a resurrection. This is a partial list of O. T. verses on this subject: 1 Samuel 2: 6 Job 14:14-15 Job 19: 26 Psalm 49 Isaiah 26: 19 Isaiah 65:20-25 Also: Dan 12:2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. This one is pretty clear about a resurrection of the just and the unjust. Eze 37:12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. Eze 37:13And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD. Based on this I would guess they weren’t expecting heaven, but a final place as Israel on earth. Hope that helps something.

That’s pretty deep, Danny. I’ve read the point about concentrating on the four on each side before (yes I thought it true and profound), but just the way you worded it really hit my heart in a much more profound way. I think it was couching it in terms of context. Insightful. Thank you so much!! Also: Sunesis: Awesome posts!! I enjoyed them very much.

Sorry, Jerry. I reckon I read your posts too quickly. I’ve been deeply involved in reviewing twi teaching in this area for the past several weeks. Most of it doesn’t hold up to my satisfaction. I haven’t made up my mind what I think about it in general yet. Re chapter and verse: twi was so rabid about that yet accepted (we) so much without it (where I’ve found most things that I believe to be in error). Other things out of context. The only way for me to wade through it is to ask myself what does it say? What doesn’t it say? Is this Scriptural, or something vp made up? I’m sure there will come a time when I won’t be as insistent about it, but it won’t be until after I’m done with this process. I took a 7 yr. break from it which is why I’m just now finishing up. I will say it is a heck of a lot easier with more time and space between me and twi than it was back when we were working on pfal!!! In any case, thanks for clarifying. Carry on, lol. Deb P. S. I’m sorry about your brother.

Irish: you don’t know me very well. I’m not an attacking type poster (if you are thinking that). I ask just you read what follows with an open mind. What you do is up to you. Is there any Scriptural basis for saying that people who are hypnotized are possessed? Anything other than twi doctrine? Twi’s basis for alcoholism as possession is weak: “drinks up the Nile” re: Leviathan. I’m not saying it’s impossible, just not specifically Scriptural. Even if that verse refers to alcoholism, without specific revelation it would be impossible to know. For instance, not all people who are deaf and dumb are possessed. Another example I can think of off the top of my head is depression. Twi claimed this was possession (no Scriptural backup). It has been medically proven this is often caused by a lack of serotonin or dopamine (chemicals). These individuals are often susceptible to alcohol and nicotine addiction as they mimic the presence of these chemical shortages. Bipolar individuals also have chemical imbalances. One drug used for treatment is Zoloft, (although more primary is Lithium which is also used for epilepsy). It alters the way serotonin operates in the brain. Could it sometimes be caused by possession? Maybe. I am suggesting it is possible for things to go on we don’t understand to not be possession. There is a relationship between hypnotism and sedation. (From that point of view it is nifty Irish brought that up). According to Wikipedia: “Another physiological definition states that the theta state is required for therapeutic change. The theta state is associated with hypnosis for surgery, hypnoanesthesia (the use of hypnosis to numb sensation of pain), and hypnoanalgesia (the use of hypnosis to decrease sensitivity to pain), which occur more readily in the theta and delta states. Anesthetics, sedatives and hypnotics disrupt neuronal synchrony, thought to underlie theta waves, in both humans and animals, as well as in simple neuronal circuits.[3] It should be noted that hypnoanalgesia of the skin is a common test for somnambulism. Arm and body catalepsy are one of a few tests done to determine readiness for these surgical applications.” The article suggests hypnosis is not an understood or agreed upon subject. Anesthesia itself is not fully understood. Some drugs prevent consciousness others don’t. Some prevent memory. The ones that prevent consciousness are a major chemical assault on the mind and body that occasionally is so severe it results in death, hence the requirement to sign a waiver. Some of these drugs result in the patient being unable to breathe on their own (thus even brain stem function is stopped). Under these circumstances I don’t have much trouble understanding someone having NDE experiences or memories. Is it the result of chemical and physical assault or possession? Is it possible some folks have similar NDE experiences because they took the same drug? Has that possibility been looked into? Or maybe it’s related to the trauma itself? Just thinking out loud: I’ve read serotonin and dopamine disorders happen either from heredity or as a result of childhood abuse (or both). Also immune system diseases can happen that way. The human body reacts in powerful ways to emotional trauma. Ulcers happen as a result of prolonged stress. It seems possible if not probable to me for severe physical trauma to cause some strange things. Perhaps it affects the brain in categories, such as dopamine deficiency causing certain characteristic emotional behavior that is not necessarily the same in all individuals or experienced by all, depending on the particular brain chemistry of the individual and how it reacts to the drugs and/or trauma (not necessarily drug induced). I think it’s also possible for this level of trauma to cause the “soul” to leave the body (does it actually happen? I don’t know). From a physical point of view they are nearly dead. Are their NDE experiences reliable sources of information? Not to me. Not under the circumstances. But maybe. Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to use critical thinking skills outside the box of twi…as usual when I post it’s nothing personal and doesn’t matter at all to me if anyone agrees or not. I don’t post to be agreed with or get an ego boost. Just my thoughts at the moment. There is nothing sacred to me about my thoughts. I do like to think, however.

“If demons can cause a hallucination resulting in someone believing they were in heaven, they might be able convey information to someone's brain during trauma convincing them that they travelled out of their body.”—jbarrax Are you sure about that? Is it Scriptural or twi doctrine (and non-Scriptural)? Can d. s. be discerned by the five senses? Can you name one incident in the Bible that describes or supports this in any way? Can you justifiably accuse others of possession or influence without direct revelation or Scriptural backup? Hypnosis, for example. Twi doctrine is that is possession. Is that Scriptural? No it isn’t. Could there be another explanation? Yes. Truth or twi superstition? You have a fine mind, Jerry. I am familiar with your work on PFAL. I am just suggesting you apply it in this category. You know me as Sunlight 8. I hope you are well.

Interesting posts. I’ve always been intrigued with this incident: Act 20:9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead. Act 20:10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing [him] said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life (psuche) is in him. It implies Paul was able to raise him from the dead because his soul was still within. It is a contradiction to twi’s “soul sleep” I should think. Evidently the soul does leave the body. My sister is a nurse. It is not uncommon for a person to be declared dead at the hospital, sent to the morgue, and then revive spontaneously several days later. I’m planning to state clearly in my will I am not to be messed with for four days after I’m dead. Just to be sure. Ha! Another weird thing: Patients who have lost part or all of limbs can still feel them. There is still an energy force there. It is a scientific fact.

T-bone: lol. Sorry, Wordwolf for my meanderings....maybe I should start another thread. "Deb's meanderings." "Journey out of confusion." Something.

P. S. I have no issue with folks who feel they sensed someone was born again or some such. My issue is vp’s definition of d. of s. is non-Scriptural. Take non-presence of a spirit. Is there Scriptural evidence of that? Nooooooo….What about permission to cast it out if evil? Noooooooooooooo….A definition of a Biblical concept should have Scriptural backup. I should think. Just venting, but I really do find it irritating to have to spend so much time unraveling this stuff. Time and time again I find vp adding, subracting and taking things out of context. I only take the time to sort it out because I know if I don’t it still lurks in my brain. If you leave the dust balls in your house, they remain. Special note to Cinder: With very few exceptions people were healed of spirits as God’s sovereign will to redeem and heal. In all cases it glorified God. Not once was it ever to persecute, hurt, or demean. That’s just plain evil. There is no record of someone born again being possessed. Does that mean it can’t happen? I dunno. Does anyone know the definition of “diakrisis” (discerning) as relates to I Cor. 12? It has several meanings according to Thayer’s along the lines of separate, distinguish or judge. What did this word mean at the time? We are told in I John to test the spirits whether they are from God in the context of false teaching. It seems to me that is vastly more important than knowing whether someone is possessed. I am starting to lean in this direction simply because the purpose of the manifestations is service within the church as a whole, and this is the only indication that is specific concerning us and evil spirits. False teaching may really be so subtle as to require revelation to detect it coming from the wrong source. The Bible does say devils have doctrines. Remember Jesus saying to Peter “get thee behind me satan?” Just thinking. And I could be all wet. It's happened before....

I haven’t read this entire thread, but I didn’t see any indication the original question got answered. Maybe it was and I missed it. In any case: 1Ki 22:19 And he (Micaiah) said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. 1Ki 22:21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. There’s no indication they were healed or delivered. Or not. This is something Micaiah knew after the fact. He didn’t look at them and know they were possessed. This sounds more like word of knowledge to me. As to what the practical application looks like? Strangely Scripture is silent about that. Mar 9:17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit; Mar 9:18 And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not. Mar 9:19 He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me. Mar 9:20 And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming. Mar 9:21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child. If you read the entire record, you will see no verse states anyone (including the father) got revelation the child was possessed. One could argue it’s implied, but still I find it odd. I found this to be the consistent pattern. We only have the assumption of others that d. of s. in I Cor. 12 refers to detecting spirit. Could be true, and could be false. I’m not sure at this point. No question twi used it abusively. “It is to discern, detect, be made aware of their presence, and to determine their identity, whether they be the spirits of the devil (diabolos), the holy spirit, or the spirit of man. If evil, whether they may be cast out (this requires the manifestation of Workings of Miracles).” There is no record in the N. T. whatsoever of anyone at all discerning H. S. or spirit of man. Working of miracles? Maybe. All instances referred to it as “healing” or “healed.” Saul got delivered from an evil spirit because David played music. “Many” who were possessed got healed when Jesus taught. Manifestations weren’t involved at all.

Lol. See your point. I do tend to go all over the map when I’m pondering something. Gnosticism, I’ve seen that. What did vp know? That was our starting point. For some that is not resolved. For me it is imminently clear God’s moral will can’t be ignored without consequences. Col. 2 deals with spiritual elitism and a desire to look into things not known, setting aside God’s moral will. But God’s moral will was really the point from the beginning. It is the point of the new birth. And the deeper I dig into it, the more vp’s idea that grace is freedom from moral will blows me away.

Computer programs are entirely logic based. A common string is “if then else.” It is a conditional statement. For example, if all variables are less then ten then add all variables under ten else subtract them. This is called a “boolean” string. I know this seems obscure to some, but makes perfect sense to me. Computer programming is entirely logic based, and when a hole in logic occurs, the program crashes. A computer knows nothing except what it is told. There is nothing magic about it. Likewise: Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Eph 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ; Compare to: Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Lasciviousness, uncleanness and greediness all pertain to sexual immorality. When a person does this with no remorse, they become darkened. The condition of no remorse is no conscience, they have reasoned out their error. Vp did this with regard to sexual sin. He justified it with the Bible, altering meanings of verses. Such as fornication doesn’t apply to sexual sin, but idolatry. He taught others to do so. Those who support him on the basis of everyone sins don’t understand the Bible. Error for which one has remorse, but doesn’t make a habitual practice is one thing, having no remorse is another. The consequences are being spiritually darkened. Those who support this error do not treat the moral will of God very seriously. “Understanding darkened” is the opposite of “eyes of understanding enlightened.” No remorse involves a reasoned out decision. The reasoned out decision of vp resulted in “darkened” spiritually, if the Bible is correct. On that basis, I have no confidence in anything he taught. The moral will of God stands even if some want to disregard it or minimize it. If one rejects God’s moral will and has no remorse, according to Ephesians that person is spiritually darkened. They are not qualified to teach because they have no spiritual understanding. If you do not respect God's moral will as a reasoned out decision , then you are spiritually darkened. Then you cannot discern light. You have blocked off the possibility of eyes enlightened.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. This is one I thought of this morning. Lcm taught the word “direct” in the Greek Septuagint is the same as “rightly divided.” He expressed how precisely God will direct our paths in the sense of a blank check in all matters. No. That would entail revelation in all matters, else we’d never find the invisible yellow brick road. It would also entail ceasing thinking at all. Surefire formula for failure. Context is wisdom. Paths are defined in context. Pro 3:13 Happy [is] the man [that] findeth wisdom, and the man [that] getteth understanding. Pro 3:14 For the merchandise of it [is] better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. Pro 3:15 She [is] more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her. Pro 3:16 Length of days [is] in her right hand; [and] in her left hand riches and honour. Pro 3:17 Her ways [are] ways of pleasantness, and all her paths [are] peace. If the first two verses of this post are read and understood in context, then trusting in the Lord means trusting His ways of wisdom are best. We acknowledge Him in all our ways by endeavoring to make His ways our ways. The result is the wisdom we put in our minds will direct us in the paths of wisdom. It is very much along the lines of Jesus saying He didn’t seek to do His own will, but God’s. We are not to lean on our own understanding of what we think wisdom might be, but God’s. That involves a great deal of thinking.

Part Five God’s will in our lives. Gird up the loins of your minds cont. From Thayer’s: “1) to gird up 2) metaph. be prepared a) a metaphor derived from the practice of the Orientals, who in order to be unimpeded in their movements were accustomed, when starting a journey or engaging in any work, to bind their long flowing garments closely around their bodies and fastened them with a leather belt.” I can see this as “prepared.” I can also see it as do something about the loose flapping around that gets in the way. (Sounds like an apt description of twi, lol. Please, someone turn that fan off!). Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure. “For” indicates reason. What is His will and good pleasure? Isn’t that spelled out in His Word? It is saying God energizes His will in us in the category of obedience and salvation. Obedience and Christian conduct is the general subject of this chapter. His moral will. It isn’t guidance or anything extra-Biblical. It isn’t a blank check in all matters. This is probably where “I feel led” or “inspired” comes from. Or perhaps from: Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. It is unlikely Jesus just felt led, or took for granted every thought that passed His mind was being led. To me, feeling led, feeling at peace, gut feeling or inspired are all based on feelings. This is not to say God can’t work that way, there’s just no Scriptural basis for it. That is not how the instances of revelation are described. Especially, in all examples I looked at with regard to manifestations, I did not see any instances of manifestations for every day personal decisions major or minor. Even I Cor. speaks of them in light of service to the body of Christ. I am not saying God couldn’t or wouldn’t for some reason provide revelation for personal decisions, but owing to the fact it isn’t described in the Bible (that I could find), I shouldn’t think it would be normative. If it did occur, it would certainly be very plain. There is no verse that says feeling at peace is a validation for decisions or guidance from God. Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Context for walking by the Spirit is walking according to God’s moral will. This phrase was SO abused in twi to mean guidance. It was almost as if revelation was a shortcut to moral law, if not a substitute. Open and closed doors: Act 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles. The opportunity for faith to the Gentiles was provided. Act 14:28 And there they abode long time with the disciples. Col 4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds: This is speaking of an opportunity to speak the Word. How these verses transformed into a doctrine that God opens and closes doors in our lives for decision making in the sense of guidance is beyond me. In all instances of the phrase it refers to witnessing. The concept of “called.” Act 16:9And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. Act 16:10And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them. In this instance, the “called” was preceded by very plain revelation. Paul was called to be an apostle and we all were called into the body of Christ. I heard in twi, many times we were called into it. Ok. If so, then there would have been plain revelation about it. The fact I made a decision to take a class is not proof God called me into that group or anywhere else. Still, small voice: 1Ki 19:11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; [but] the LORD [was] not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; [but] the LORD [was] not in the earthquake: 1Ki 19:12 And after the earthquake a fire; [but] the LORD [was] not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice. 1Ki 19:13 And it was [so], when Elijah heard [it], that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, [there came] a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah? Notice all the drama. Afterward Elijah hears the still small voice. He then leaves, and it is AFTER that, that God talks to him. We don’t know if it was still and small or not. Can’t twi read??? Somehow, this became the standard for all revelation. Dangerous, I think. Once you believe revelation is subtle, it is easy to believe an emotion or some such is guidance. Remember the test of a prophet is does it come to pass. Is it 100% accurate? Did it come from God for a fact? We don’t want to become false prophets unto ourselves or to others and set ourselves up for feeling like utter failures. Been there, done that. It isn’t funny. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ T-bone: Comments about your thread. Yes, you’re right it is a big deal. Could be wrong, but seems to me decision making based on things like open doors, being at peace, really falls in the category of seeking after signs. Thayer’s gave a definition for signs that is along the lines of a supernatural event. So I don’t see a difference between looking for signs in the negative sense and looking for a supernatural validation for decisions. And the more I think about it, the more perverted it seems to me. You’re right, there’s a certain amount of laziness to it. Jesus said he would send the comforter to lead us into the all truth, not identify which job to take. “The Bible indicates nothing of an "individual will" governing each decision we make. In all decisions, the believer should humbly submit in advance to the outworking of God's sovereign will as it touches each decision and does not exclude the need for planning on our part.” From your thread. That hits the nail on the head. I would add that we don’t need to know God’s sovereign will. He can drive His own car. We get to decide if we want to be passengers and whether to sit with our legs crossed or uncrossed and what clothes we’ll wear. Our job is to learn to be good passengers. He’s already told us the destination. And we don’t need to be backseat drivers. The wrong teaching in twi with regard to “guidance” caused me far more harm and condemnation than even the law of believing. While I knew all 9 all the time was bull, it took digging into this in detail to pull the whole mess out by the roots. I’m not nearly so confused and everything is much more simple. The burden and anxiety of trying to divine God’s will in every day situations is lifted. It is interesting twi taught “the word of God is the will of God” but also taught and practiced something else and that was what was preeminent . They virtually discarded moral will in favor of trying to live by sovereign will. As a lifestyle. They made everything so blasted difficult, complicated and impossible. Funny we were so proud and arrogant of it. I’m sure we got an “A” for effort. Good thing God looks on the heart. Huh! The conversion from what does God know to what do we know. Pretty good, T-bone. Hadn’t thought about it that way, but you’re right. Succinct. Thank you for taking the time to locate the thread and for expressing your thoughts. I’ve learned a lot from you in the last 6 mos.

Part Four: God’s will in the life of Jesus. Jhn 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. It’s what He lived for. It was His sustenance. “Finish his work.” He was going to complete what God had started. Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. Jhn 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. Jhn 6:37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. Jhn 6:39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jesus reflected God’s moral and sovereign will (as the redeemer), which the above verses describe. They also describe a life and attitude of complete submission. It wasn’t conditional. He had complete confidence His judgments were just because He relied utterly on God for His standard (loving God with all His heart and soul). God’s moral will was His foundation. That put him in the position to love God with all His mind, and He did have a superb, logical mind. Jesus very often used logic to teach and confront. He expected people to use their reason to understand what He was saying and expressed puzzlement when they couldn’t. He used logic when confronted by the Pharisees. Mat 21:23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? Mat 21:24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. Mat 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? Jesus’ question was neither idle nor evasive. His formal priesthood and ministry began with the Baptism of John in accordance with the law. It was a unique baptism in that baptism was for sinners, which is why John objected initially. God then sent the Holy Spirit which descended upon Him. From the point of view of the law, the authority of Jesus came from John’s baptism. This is the exact reason He approached it this way. Since the object of the Pharisees was to discredit Jesus to the people, they were in a tough spot. The people believed John the Baptist was a prophet. If they acknowledged his authority of God, than they had to also acknowledge the authority of Jesus who John had confirmed. It was a logic thing. It was quite a question Jesus asked! Mat 21:26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. Mat 21:27And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things. End of argument. By refusing to answer or acknowledge the spiritual authority of John, they condemned themselves by their own reasoning (logic) and unbelief. Jesus didn’t have to. His object was not to set a bigger trap than theirs, but let them make their own decision. It was fair and it was just. He isn’t done. He goes on to tell them three parables. In Mat. 21:28, The first one seems to have no connection with them, but confronts their error. It’s a story of two sons. One initially refused to work, but finally did. The second promised to work, but never did. Jesus then asks, which one did the father’s will? They respond the second. It was a direct comparison to the claim of righteousness of the Pharisees, but the lack of demonstration of it. The second parable in verses 33-46, he tells of the landowner who had a vineyard. He had leased it out, but when he sent messengers for his shares, the messengers were beaten and killed. Jesus then asks the Pharisees another question. What should the landowner do? Their answer was to destroy the renters and get someone to lease it that would produce fruit. Jesus responds to their answer with a prophesy wherein he would be rejected by the “builders,” meaning them, resulting in the Kingdom of Heaven being taken from them. He would then grind them to powder, and later there would be spiritual fruit in the kingdom. The Pharisees realized He was speaking of them, wanted to lay hands on Him, but didn’t for fear of the people. Interesting He used a parable involving killing the messenger. Jesus was God’s messenger. Now for the third parable. Mat. 22:1-14 He describes the wedding feast. A king (God) sends servants to invite guests (the Jews) to his son’s (Jesus) wedding feast (the Kingdom). Some declined (the Jews who didn’t believe), others (the Pharisees) killed the servants. The king sent armies and destroyed the murderers and the city. Next he invited guests from the highways (gentiles and any Jews who would believe). A man arrived without a wedding garment (he wasn’t properly clothed. Righteousness). He was speechless (no evidence of his faith), and subsequently cast out. Many are called and few are chosen. The ones chosen are the ones who respond inwardly, but all were given the opportunity. Jesus has now stopped asking questions of the Pharisees. He has just spelled out the consequences of their unbelief. This too was just. In this exchange, we see God’s moral will to be just, and His sovereign will to carry out judgment. The judgment was in response to something in reality they did to themselves. Jesus carried out God’s will to expose the hearts of men and gather the chosen (the ones who responded). This exchange is just so loaded. We see a magnificent use of logic presented one truth at a time, each building on the other. Understanding that Jesus spoke for God, we can understand that God wants us to see the logic of His Word, and accept it and believe it on that basis. It is fascinating to me that the Pharisees’ condemnation was not simply on the basis of unbelief, but their own reasoned rejection. In doing so, they condemned themselves. I am guessing this point is larger than I currently fathom. Jesus could have just stated some truth, and left them to believe it, or not. Yet justice required a reasoned out decision. From this we can also see that just because God has foreknowledge of who will respond, the choice to do so remains for all. His justice (moral will) requires it. We can see logic and reason is important to God. We use reason to discern truth from error and recognize false teaching. He gave us the mental capacity to be self-aware. That is: we have the ability to recognize where we are in comparison to what the Bible says. That is important or we’d never be able to tell if we were merely professing righteousness (going through the motions) like the Pharisees, or really are inwardly. It also important so that we can recognize when we’ve been deceived. We use logic to recover ourselves. There is more to it than believe or disbelieve. 1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation (behavior); 1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Just a thought: but maybe the whole point of this part of the life of Paul is to demonstrate that neither the life of Paul nor the ability of God is ever limited. Physical bonds didn’t really hinder either of them. A big reason not to judge ourselves or God by our circumstances. I’m glad you’re enjoying it, T-bone. I hit a stopping point and read your post thoroughly and also your thread. Good stuff and it sparked some things that helped with my next post, which I will do tomorrow. I have more comments, but will wait a bit.

Part Three: Jam 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain: Jam 4:14 Whereas ye know not what [shall be] on the morrow. For what [is] your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. Jam 4:15 For that ye [ought] to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that. Jam 4:16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil. This concerns attitude, not guidance or the necessity for it. They were free to make decisions, but they were to recognize there is no knowing what tomorrow brings (“if the Lord will, we shall live”). It is respecting God’s sovereignty. Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven. This again is respecting God’s sovereignty. Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Rom 1:10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. Rom 1:11For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; Here Paul is saying he prays for the opportunity to come see them. He doesn’t know if it will happen or not. Very different from twi-style prayer! The infamous comma verse: Act 21:14 And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done. I’m sure you remember various individuals had prophesied that if Paul went to Jerusalem, he would be bound. Act 21:11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver [him] into the hands of the Gentiles. Does this say it was not the will of God for him to go? No, it only says if he goes what will happen. There is no indication anywhere it was not God’s will. Act 20:22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: Act 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. We are told very specifically the followers didn’t want him to go. That doesn’t mean their response was reflective of the will of God. Act 21:12 And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem. Act 21:13 Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus. PFAL pg. 140 “Paul moaned, so-to-speak, “Don’t you people know that I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus?” Doesn’t that sound magnanimous and sincere! But Paul was totally wrong. The will of the Lord was for him not to go to Jerusalem.” I disagree. Vp paints a picture of a foolhardy Paul. By this time in the book of Acts, Paul had been beaten, stoned and raised from the dead, imprisoned, and in peril of his life numerous times. So, no it wasn’t a foolhardy attitude. He had experienced God’s deliverance many times and really wasn’t afraid. Act 21:14 And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done. I couldn’t find a verse that clearly states one way or another what God’s will was, or if He had a preference. We only know from the above verse the followers stopped saying “the will of the Lord be done.” This could simply be in the sense whatever happens, it’s in God’s hands. We know Paul felt “bound in the spirit” to go. Does that mean revelation or internal desire? I don’t believe he was outside the will of God in a general sense. Phl 1:13So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other [places]; Phl 1:14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear. 2Ti 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, [even] unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. 2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. The end result of Paul being in prison is “many brethren” became more confident. By this time all Asia minor had heard the Word. While in prison, Paul had safety from those who wanted to kill him. During this time, he wrote a number of what is now books of the Bible. Overall, the church was helped and not hindered by his imprisonment. We benefit from it today. Was Paul in error to go to Jerusalem? Some want to say definitely, others no. From what I can read, Scripture is silent on that issue. Perhaps the truth of the matter is God let Paul make that decision, letting him know that if he went, what would happen so he could make it with his eyes open, mentally prepared. The nature of our circumstances is a false criteria for determining whether we’re within the will of God. So is how our decisions work out. Vp clearly thought being in prison was equal to being outside the will of God. He thought God was trying to keep him out of the soup. It is shallow thinking. The thing that really drives people to want God’s endorsement on their decisions is to keep from making a mistake or having bad consequences. They believe God when things are good and some back away when they are not. They doubt themselves and then they doubt God. This record of Paul to me demonstrates clearly circumstances are not a reason to believe or disbelieve. It is conditional and assumes God should serve us and not the other way around. God wants us to love Him with all our hearts, souls, minds, and strength with no strings attached. Jesus was the greatest example of this.

Hi, Sunesis!!! Thank you. Hey John!!!! Glad to “see” you!!! (T-bone). Thank you for your comments. Wordwolf and Evan really did light a quite fire in my brain. I’ve been running with it ever since. I read the beginning of your post. I am sorry, I don’t want to read the meat of it right now. I will just as soon as I finish my train of thought. Also your thread. I am in this really highly focused state (doesn’t happen often) where I just want to finish what’s on my mind. Of course jump in. Anyone please do. Just let me ignore you for a little while, please. (I get like this when I’m oil painting…don’t bother trying to talk to me, I won’t hear you, even if you yell). By his silence, I am assuming this direction is OK with Wordwolf. After this, I will read anything posted, and consider any errors anyone sees or things I hadn’t considered. I have spent a very involved and long period of time examining the meaning and how of performing the will of God. I’ve considered it in light of the life of Jesus and I’ve considered it from our perspective. I’ve considered it from what I can know of God’s perspective. I have read and reread a lot of Bible. This was really the thing on my mind when I came to GS to start with. I had realized (the hard way) I was walking on broken crutches. I was devastated. If I never understand anything, this one thing I want to get. While this has been going on, I’ve also had a personal crisis taking place. My husband had taken a new job in June which may or may not be panning out (involving someone buying a company which was supposed to close in July. Many delays. Is it or is it not going to happen? Because of this, his salary was cut in half, and we can’t live on that amount. What to do? Besides all that we own a house in a dinky town with no jobs over 2 hours away from a town of any size with jobs. Major headache. Oh yes. So far, we’ve had enough money to manage. Different things have happened to provide it. We have a meeting Saturday with a lady in town my husband has known for many years who owns an accounting firm. She is in desperate need of help, and wants it from us in particular. This came about by “accident” last night.). So, I have very personal reasons for understanding this thing. Part Two: Jon 1:1 Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, Jon 1:2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me. God’s sovereign and moral will expressed. He also foreknew they would respond. Jon 1:3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD. Jon 1:4 But the LORD sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken. Knowing Jonah was going to end up jumping in the sea because of it, God sent a storm. Pretty determined, dontcha think? Lol, they both were. Jon 2:4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple. Jon 2:5 The waters compassed me about, [even] to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. Jon 2:6I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars [was] about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. Jon 2:7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple. Jon 2:8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy. Jon 2:9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay [that] that I have vowed. Salvation [is] of the LORD. Evidently Jonah prayed while in the sea, and while he was in the belly of the fish he realized some things and had a real change in attitude. His “soul fainted.” I would guess he was pretty scared. After this, God spoke to the fish which then vomited up Jonah on dry land. After the people repented, Jonah was mad. (In the early 80’s I got curious why he was so mad. If memory serves, this city was in Assyria, which was prophesied to attack Israel. Assyria was an enemy. It took me a long time to piece together and I don’t want to take the time right now to do it again. My memory may not be right). In any case, Jonah was so mad he prayed to die. Jon 4:9 And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, [even] unto death. Jon 4:10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night: Jon 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and [also] much cattle? Does God in any way explain His sovereign will? Not at all. He explains His moral will. Jonah was going to have to be satisfied with that answer. All these events were supernatural and divine intervention. There was nothing subtle about it. Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: Eph 1:11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: The above verse is a good illustration of God’s sovereign will in relationship to His foreknowledge. He conducts His sovereign will according to His own counsel. Hold that thought. How about Job? Job desired an audience with God. He basically wanted to explain he had done nothing to deserve the calamity that befell him. God answered him out of a whirlwind (not subtle) with an interesting response. Job 38:1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Job 38:2Who [is] this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. [/b] What follows is a discourse of some of the detail of God’s ability and sovereignty. Whose “counsel” is being referred to? God never does explain why the calamity occurred. His moral will? He repays Job double and more. My point is this: It simply is not the Biblical pattern for God to reveal His sovereign will, except for instances where He imparts bits and pieces to prophets who will record them in His written Word. We see His sovereign will as a whole concerning man (what He has chosen to reveal), but we have to read a substantial portion of the Bible to see it. In addition, you simply won’t see in God’s interactions with man, a sense of a personal blueprint to divine (or anywhere). Is there any record in the Bible where you can get that sense? I haven’t found one. Does God care about every detail of our lives? You bet!!! Does He promise us things, answer prayer? Of course. Certain leadership at times carried out God’s sovereign will. (Jonah did too, finally). They did this because of divine intervention. Moses and the burning bush is an example of God’s initial contact (not subtle. Yes, I know, I keep repeating that. For a reason.). Peter and the sheet. When and if God intervenes in a direct fashion in our lives, it is crystal clear and it is His sovereign will. That is the general pattern of the Bible. If He can make a fish understand, He can make us understand something if He deems it necessary. We are a little smarter than even a big fish. Maybe not a dolphin.

Sovereign Will and Moral Will I apologize for the use of an extra-Biblical expression. I seldom use them. It is a concept I read about a few months ago, and have devoted a lot of time thinking and considering it Genesis to Revelation to see if it holds up. As far as I can see it does. Feel free to chime in if you disagree and teach me. I think of this in human terms. You and I have goals and objectives as humans that hopefully we carry out in an ethical manner. The difference is God’s sovereign will is thought out from the beginning (foreknowledge) and will absolutely come to pass. His moral will stands resolutely and isn’t debatable. Separating His moral will from His sovereign will helps in understanding some things, especially our interaction with Him. God’s foreknowledge and His sovereign will are closely intertwined. It is possible for Him to have sovereign will because He does have foreknowledge. If He didn’t absolutely know the future, He couldn’t ordain His sovereign will as absolute, such as the coming (at one point) of the Redeemer. Further, all of His promises to us would be somewhat nebulous. Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Some folks take this to mean God’s foreknowledge subtracts our option to choose Him. Read it again. Given that we would choose Him, He determined our destiny, that is we would have an inheritance. His sovereign will. Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Again, according to His sovereign will, God determined our destiny to be according to the above if we choose it. Does God have a “blueprint” for our lives we must somehow divine? Is the following Biblical? 1. I “feel led” or “inspired.” 2. I “feel a peace about…” 3. God “opened” or “closed” this “door.” 4. “My gut feeling…” 5. “The will of God is for me to…” 6. “I was called to….” 7. “Walking by the Spirit” equals guidance. 8. “God works in me to will and do of His good pleasure” equals guidance. 9. “Still, small voice.” (We shall look at this one, and the others). I’ve heard all of the above in the sense of guidance and as basis for decision making. I’ve done it myself. The attempt to acquire guidance comes from a sincere desire to do God’s will. It is an attempt to tap into His sovereign will based on a belief He has a “blueprint” for every decision we make. Is that Biblical? There are many methods (tricks, secret knowledge for the “mature”) to accomplish this published in many books. Twi had its own set. A side note on God’s sovereign will: Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. This is a verse thrown about in twi frequently. Taken out of context it implies all will be sweetness and light sooner or later. But, read the next verse. Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. It doesn’t refer to circumstances. It refers to God’s sovereign and moral will that we be conformed to the image of His Son. “Good” as defined by God in context is verse 29.

What does God know? He knew about you and me. It seems to me that grace is what bridges the gap between man and God. God initiated the bridge doing for us what we can’t do for ourselves. He has done this in sundry ways since the beginning. When Adam sinned, God went looking for him, not the other way around. He then covered them and provided the plan of the redeemer. Did mankind then or at any time earn it? Nope. If it weren’t for grace, there’d be no us at all. When it gets right down to it. God did all the hard stuff, He just asks us to believe what He said is true. How hard even that small thing is sometimes! Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. God is holy and man is not. By God’s grace, we are acceptable and beloved by Him. He made possible the impossible! Some other verses that hit home with me: 2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, Before the world began, He knew me. He knew you. He, God almighty, creator of the universe, knew us and called us. He knew we would respond. He did it because He wanted to, not because of anything we did. He loved us for thousands of years before we were even born. He asks us to love Him back. Man has yet to invent a perpetual motion machine, but God did. Our earth turns in a weightless universe. There is great debate in scientific circles how this is so. But turn it does, day after day at a speed of 1000 mi. per hour at the equator. It circles the sun once per year at 63,000 miles per hour. Yet we feel no motion. The galaxy we are in rotates also. (I forgot the speed). Oddly, Venus rotates in the opposite direction from the rest of the planets in our solar system. This pattern is carried out on a molecular level. Again a perpetual motion machine. Electrons circle a nucleus. The exact composition determines what matter it is. God holds it all and keeps it all going. He planned and made it all for His man. That’s you and I. As imperfect as we may be. How many millions of prayers go to Him each day? But He hears them all and even knows how many hairs are on our heads. He knows what we need before we ask. When I look at the stars, I see God’s love for me. I also know it is a love I can’t fathom. Why me, Lord? I am nothing. He thinks differently. Somehow He thought we were worth the effort, even knowing man would blow it in a major way. Grace is the heart of the Father God calling to His man. Each of us by name. He asks we set His will in our hearts as the standard. We can do this by His grace.

Thank you, Evan. I owe you a real debt of gratitude for bringing up the subject in the first place. Thanks to you I’ve got a much deeper (and I think more correct) perception and appreciation for God. It was quite a thought process. My actual starting point was Jesus’ attitude toward His own will. I realized if it wasn’t an important issue to Him, it wasn’t to God either (except for the aspect of choosing God and those things He wants us to choose). The important thing is making God’s will ours. I was amazed when I realized God does in fact over ride our wills at times. The post itself took me two days to write and get satisfied with it. “Freewill” is a square peg in a round hole as applied to the Bible. It makes no sense at all if you think about it very long. It is a major roadblock to understanding God’s sovereignty. You were right about the Shunamite (sp?) woman. That’s another example of God over riding a person’s will. It is true she was a great woman of faith and God was rewarding her, but there’s no indication she asked for or was specifically “believing” for it. I didn’t really understand what you were driving at, at the time. But you got me thinking…and my attention. You’re right. It’s difficult to put this stuff in neat little boxes. Understanding God has parameters helps a lot. That’s not a concept I’ve ever thought about or read about, but became obvious as I thought about the subject, especially when I was considering it isn’t possible for satan to choose good. If you take “freewill” completely out of the picture, then things start to make a lot more sense.

Smiles….!!! A kind word: what a nice thing. An unexpected gift. Thank you so much, Rainbowsgirl! And hugs back!!!

Revisiting freewill: This is a rather difficult subject and one I hadn’t given much thought to until Evan brought it up. It is however, quite important. The concept of freewill is the result of philosophical thought rather than theological. There is a lot of disagreement in even defining freewill and its function relative to philosophical and theological applications. I spent about an hour reading up on different points of view, and then settled into my own consideration of the matter. Twi’s position was that God “does not assert His power over individual will and choices” (I got this wording from Wikipedia, I really like it) in the sense of not allowing a choice (or really in any sense), otherwise it would be possession. That the difference between God and the devil is that God is in favor of freewill and the devil is not. That obviously is false otherwise God would not carry out justice (a topic twi carefully avoided and generally blamed on the devil), and when He does, it certainly isn’t possession. The devil is quite in favor of the choice to disobey. Twi’s God only interacted in the affairs of men according to their positive or negative believing and their “freewill” choices. So did the devil for that matter. Secondly, it was regarded as a right that God always respected and was God given, and that He was obligated to that premise. There is nothing in the Bible about this and it contradicts vast amounts of Scripture. That premise holds God hostage to the will of His creation and denies His sovereignty (His right to rule His creation). The roles get reversed where the determining factor is the will of creation. If you follow that line of thinking to its logical conclusion, then salvation would not have been possible. Freewill is an attempt to explain why there is evil in the world and how God relates to His creation. Freewill assumes there are always at least two choices. As best as I can determine, what seems to be true is God did give us the mental capacity to make decisions and choices based on will. He does want us to make choices on issues He asks us to. It stops right there. There are no “rights” associated with it and “free” is limited. God does over ride our will at times. Ex: when you receive revelation it is not something you will to do or have anything to do with other than passively receive it. Contrary to what twi taught, spirit is not required and neither is believing. After receiving it you do have a choice to take heed or not. Jon 2:10 And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry [land]. God in essence commanded the fish, but how did He make the fish understand the command? He spoke to the brain of that fish, that’s how. Another example of God over riding the will of a person is Jonah. Jonah was someone who didn’t want to do the will of God. He was supposed to go to Ninevah and “cry against it.” Instead of obeying, he got on a ship and tried to run away. A storm arose, and while Jonah was sleeping, the crew cast lots and determined the problem was with Jonah. Jonah agreed and said they should throw him overboard (his decision and will). Not willing to do this, the crew tried to row ashore unsuccessfully. Finally, they did throw him overboard (their decision agreeing with Jonah. Their combined solution wasn’t God’s.). In spite of Jonah’s state of disobedience, God rescued him with a big fish. God didn’t let Jonah’s decision stand. Jonah made a choice, but God decided the final outcome. What Jonah wanted or thought made no difference. Did he choose to be swallowed by the fish? God did, in fact, “assert His power over individual will and choices.” So how much “freewill” did Jonah really have? To carry it out a little further: Can satan choose good? Can God choose evil? If you answer that created beings don’t make choices outside their essence, then you have a problem: the angels that sinned and satan himself. In the instant they sinned, then they created (brought something into existence that didn’t previously exist) evil. I propose a difference answer. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]. God must have defined good and evil from the beginning, and with that came a choice that had parameters. That is: once satan chose evil, at some point he no longer had the “freewill” choice to choose good. Whatever the circumstances, it had to have been just. Once man fell, his “freewill” choices were likewise quite limited. He could not choose to do good always, otherwise salvation would not be necessary. A parameter was in place. God has set boundaries to things. He divided the light from the darkness, for example. Twi taught that God “allows” evil. That notion always made me uncomfortable. It makes God an indirect agent of evil. I think a better word might be “tolerate” in order to accomplish His own will ultimately, that perfect universe I posted earlier. Speaking of which, I mentioned then that at that stage all creation will have made a choice. I would add to that, that at that time all evil will be destroyed and the “freewill” choice for evil will be gone because evil itself will be gone. If there was something somehow righteous about “freewill” and if it indeed exists, then it would remain. Simple logic. Also in an earlier post I brought up this verse: Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive. I mentioned at the time it seemed likely an underlying principle of God. It was something I sensed, but wasn’t sure about. I am sure about it now. I think it always applies until that final universe. The true God is absolutely sovereign in every sense of the word. I for one am glad He is. I am glad He works good for me in spite of my stupid decisions and limited mental capacity. If what He did for me was dependent on my will, then I’d be in deep trouble. A side note: Twi didn’t like the idea of God testing anyone. I believe the truth of the matter is that God does indeed test us in the sense of proving. It is similar to how you heat up gold to find impurities (there are verses in the OT about this. Psalms I think). You can’t prove something until it’s been demonstrated. That to me explains the necessity for creating evil. It’s about choice, yes, but the larger view is about proving by demonstration. I’m going to post this and let it sit awhile. After that, the next logical question is how in fact are we to relate to God? How exactly does He relate to us? These are questions with regard to will. Not “freewill,” but will. As a running start: Jn:5:19: Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. Jn:5:30: I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. Clearly, Jesus didn’t put much value on His own will. This is in spite of the fact that He was the Son of God, He was perfect, and He was holy at conception. He also said there is none good but the Father, so why are you calling me good? The point that the exertion of His own will would not be just, is interesting if not mind boggling. If we can address this, then we can begin to define ourselves in the grand scheme of things, and in particular, our interactions with God. “I think God told us the right things to do because He WANTS us to do them-for our own benefit as well as other reasons. I think He's PROUD of us when we do them without him dragging us by the scruffs of our necks- but that He's not diminished even if we don't do it.”-WW Absolutely gorgeous. Thank you for this thread, WW.