another spot

This is an interesting subject I had to research for writing a trial brief. It related to undue influence with respect to the writing of a will which favored a church. By Oklahoma law (OS 15 Section 61): “Undue influence consists: 1. In the use, by one in whom a confidence is reposed by another, or who holds a real or apparent authority over him, of such confidence or authority for the purpose of obtaining an unfair advantage over him. 2. In taking an unfair advantage of another's weakness of mind; or, 3. In taking a grossly oppressive and unfair advantage of another's necessities or distress.” I think it speaks rather loudly. Been there done that with the self recriminations. It just boiled down to the abusive use of a trusted relationship that favored the individual/group over the person trusting because of the nature of the relationship. There is really nothing mystical or magical about it. Happens all the time in all arenas of life.

Arggg. The pot calling the kettle black. I am a paralegal student. Two thirds of the classes are also required in law school. Last year I took a tort law class. That covers civil wrongs. A few relevant examples: False imprisonment: based on the right to live w/o being under the physical control of another. Can be psychological. Does you will die/get possessed if you leave ring any bells? Libel: published slander. Published can be an email or internet forum. Or SNS tape. Slander: verbal slander, but published in the sense it is said to another. These two are based on the right to live w/o having ones reputation ruined by another. Speaking of which, negative things said on this forum that can’t be proven to be true could leave a person subject to a losing lawsuit by TWI. For that to happen, TWI would first have to find the person, serve him or her, and have damages exceeding $75,000 (if the person lives in a different state than Ohio). A lot of us could win a civil suit against TWI quite easily if the statute of limitations were not long ago past (one year in most cases). Ironic TWI continues to be so vigilant about its rights while it has a long history of ignoring basic human rights of followers. Civil wrongs are based on the right to privacy. Nonexistent in TWI. But back to the subject at hand. The settlement tells me some things. Their attorney knew TWI had no case to start with or figured it out during discovery. You never settle unless you are sure you will lose, or in the game of chicken the other side is willing to compromise. If client settles for no money at all: both client and attorney know there is no case or hope of winning if it goes to trial. The final irony: courts provide more justice than TWI ever thought of.

I dreamed I found a hairball in my bedroom carpet about the size of a golf ball. It looked so repulsive to me I got a potholder to pick it up. When I lifted it up, I saw underneath was a mother mouse and babies in a nest. My first reaction was to grab it all up and throw it in trash. But, as I observed the babies move I had compassion on them as living creatures and put them all carefully back in their nest and put each baby back close to its mom. I then repaired the nest. They didn’t ask to be mice. They were born that way. Yet, I didn’t want mice in my house because they will multiply within it. So I determined to let them live, care for them tenderly, and put them outside later where they could be healthy and prosper. Then I woke up. Translation: people are what they are. A living soul is valuable to God. He doesn’t look at social convention or standards. God looks on the heart and doesn’t see the same way man does. Whatever spiritual understanding we may think we have, God’s heart is enormously larger than ours. He loves what may seem repugnant to us. God is love. It is His essence. Even though man sinned and needed salvation, even though man was inferior to His standards, He lovingly provided a way. Even though our behavior and attitudes are repugnant to His ways at times, He has compassion on us to care for us and show us the way to righteousness. He cleaned us up and made us beloved and acceptable. He declared us not guilty of being mice in His house and allows us to be with Him anyway. Jesus scooped us all up (that believe) and put us back in the nest, gently guiding each back to its mom (God). Maybe we can have some of that same compassion for each other without regard for outward appearances or even behavior. And just maybe, without regard for what we receive. It is easy to hate. It takes something more to love someone as is.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me (Jesus). Eternal life is depicted in terms of a resurrection. This is a partial list of O. T. verses on this subject: 1 Samuel 2: 6 Job 14:14-15 Job 19: 26 Psalm 49 Isaiah 26: 19 Isaiah 65:20-25 Also: Dan 12:2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. This one is pretty clear about a resurrection of the just and the unjust. Eze 37:12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. Eze 37:13And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD. Based on this I would guess they weren’t expecting heaven, but a final place as Israel on earth. Hope that helps something.

That’s pretty deep, Danny. I’ve read the point about concentrating on the four on each side before (yes I thought it true and profound), but just the way you worded it really hit my heart in a much more profound way. I think it was couching it in terms of context. Insightful. Thank you so much!! Also: Sunesis: Awesome posts!! I enjoyed them very much.

Sorry, Jerry. I reckon I read your posts too quickly. I’ve been deeply involved in reviewing twi teaching in this area for the past several weeks. Most of it doesn’t hold up to my satisfaction. I haven’t made up my mind what I think about it in general yet. Re chapter and verse: twi was so rabid about that yet accepted (we) so much without it (where I’ve found most things that I believe to be in error). Other things out of context. The only way for me to wade through it is to ask myself what does it say? What doesn’t it say? Is this Scriptural, or something vp made up? I’m sure there will come a time when I won’t be as insistent about it, but it won’t be until after I’m done with this process. I took a 7 yr. break from it which is why I’m just now finishing up. I will say it is a heck of a lot easier with more time and space between me and twi than it was back when we were working on pfal!!! In any case, thanks for clarifying. Carry on, lol. Deb P. S. I’m sorry about your brother.

Irish: you don’t know me very well. I’m not an attacking type poster (if you are thinking that). I ask just you read what follows with an open mind. What you do is up to you. Is there any Scriptural basis for saying that people who are hypnotized are possessed? Anything other than twi doctrine? Twi’s basis for alcoholism as possession is weak: “drinks up the Nile” re: Leviathan. I’m not saying it’s impossible, just not specifically Scriptural. Even if that verse refers to alcoholism, without specific revelation it would be impossible to know. For instance, not all people who are deaf and dumb are possessed. Another example I can think of off the top of my head is depression. Twi claimed this was possession (no Scriptural backup). It has been medically proven this is often caused by a lack of serotonin or dopamine (chemicals). These individuals are often susceptible to alcohol and nicotine addiction as they mimic the presence of these chemical shortages. Bipolar individuals also have chemical imbalances. One drug used for treatment is Zoloft, (although more primary is Lithium which is also used for epilepsy). It alters the way serotonin operates in the brain. Could it sometimes be caused by possession? Maybe. I am suggesting it is possible for things to go on we don’t understand to not be possession. There is a relationship between hypnotism and sedation. (From that point of view it is nifty Irish brought that up). According to Wikipedia: “Another physiological definition states that the theta state is required for therapeutic change. The theta state is associated with hypnosis for surgery, hypnoanesthesia (the use of hypnosis to numb sensation of pain), and hypnoanalgesia (the use of hypnosis to decrease sensitivity to pain), which occur more readily in the theta and delta states. Anesthetics, sedatives and hypnotics disrupt neuronal synchrony, thought to underlie theta waves, in both humans and animals, as well as in simple neuronal circuits.[3] It should be noted that hypnoanalgesia of the skin is a common test for somnambulism. Arm and body catalepsy are one of a few tests done to determine readiness for these surgical applications.” The article suggests hypnosis is not an understood or agreed upon subject. Anesthesia itself is not fully understood. Some drugs prevent consciousness others don’t. Some prevent memory. The ones that prevent consciousness are a major chemical assault on the mind and body that occasionally is so severe it results in death, hence the requirement to sign a waiver. Some of these drugs result in the patient being unable to breathe on their own (thus even brain stem function is stopped). Under these circumstances I don’t have much trouble understanding someone having NDE experiences or memories. Is it the result of chemical and physical assault or possession? Is it possible some folks have similar NDE experiences because they took the same drug? Has that possibility been looked into? Or maybe it’s related to the trauma itself? Just thinking out loud: I’ve read serotonin and dopamine disorders happen either from heredity or as a result of childhood abuse (or both). Also immune system diseases can happen that way. The human body reacts in powerful ways to emotional trauma. Ulcers happen as a result of prolonged stress. It seems possible if not probable to me for severe physical trauma to cause some strange things. Perhaps it affects the brain in categories, such as dopamine deficiency causing certain characteristic emotional behavior that is not necessarily the same in all individuals or experienced by all, depending on the particular brain chemistry of the individual and how it reacts to the drugs and/or trauma (not necessarily drug induced). I think it’s also possible for this level of trauma to cause the “soul” to leave the body (does it actually happen? I don’t know). From a physical point of view they are nearly dead. Are their NDE experiences reliable sources of information? Not to me. Not under the circumstances. But maybe. Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to use critical thinking skills outside the box of twi…as usual when I post it’s nothing personal and doesn’t matter at all to me if anyone agrees or not. I don’t post to be agreed with or get an ego boost. Just my thoughts at the moment. There is nothing sacred to me about my thoughts. I do like to think, however.

“If demons can cause a hallucination resulting in someone believing they were in heaven, they might be able convey information to someone's brain during trauma convincing them that they travelled out of their body.”—jbarrax Are you sure about that? Is it Scriptural or twi doctrine (and non-Scriptural)? Can d. s. be discerned by the five senses? Can you name one incident in the Bible that describes or supports this in any way? Can you justifiably accuse others of possession or influence without direct revelation or Scriptural backup? Hypnosis, for example. Twi doctrine is that is possession. Is that Scriptural? No it isn’t. Could there be another explanation? Yes. Truth or twi superstition? You have a fine mind, Jerry. I am familiar with your work on PFAL. I am just suggesting you apply it in this category. You know me as Sunlight 8. I hope you are well.

Interesting posts. I’ve always been intrigued with this incident: Act 20:9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead. Act 20:10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing [him] said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life (psuche) is in him. It implies Paul was able to raise him from the dead because his soul was still within. It is a contradiction to twi’s “soul sleep” I should think. Evidently the soul does leave the body. My sister is a nurse. It is not uncommon for a person to be declared dead at the hospital, sent to the morgue, and then revive spontaneously several days later. I’m planning to state clearly in my will I am not to be messed with for four days after I’m dead. Just to be sure. Ha! Another weird thing: Patients who have lost part or all of limbs can still feel them. There is still an energy force there. It is a scientific fact.

T-bone: lol. Sorry, Wordwolf for my meanderings....maybe I should start another thread. "Deb's meanderings." "Journey out of confusion." Something.

P. S. I have no issue with folks who feel they sensed someone was born again or some such. My issue is vp’s definition of d. of s. is non-Scriptural. Take non-presence of a spirit. Is there Scriptural evidence of that? Nooooooo….What about permission to cast it out if evil? Noooooooooooooo….A definition of a Biblical concept should have Scriptural backup. I should think. Just venting, but I really do find it irritating to have to spend so much time unraveling this stuff. Time and time again I find vp adding, subracting and taking things out of context. I only take the time to sort it out because I know if I don’t it still lurks in my brain. If you leave the dust balls in your house, they remain. Special note to Cinder: With very few exceptions people were healed of spirits as God’s sovereign will to redeem and heal. In all cases it glorified God. Not once was it ever to persecute, hurt, or demean. That’s just plain evil. There is no record of someone born again being possessed. Does that mean it can’t happen? I dunno. Does anyone know the definition of “diakrisis” (discerning) as relates to I Cor. 12? It has several meanings according to Thayer’s along the lines of separate, distinguish or judge. What did this word mean at the time? We are told in I John to test the spirits whether they are from God in the context of false teaching. It seems to me that is vastly more important than knowing whether someone is possessed. I am starting to lean in this direction simply because the purpose of the manifestations is service within the church as a whole, and this is the only indication that is specific concerning us and evil spirits. False teaching may really be so subtle as to require revelation to detect it coming from the wrong source. The Bible does say devils have doctrines. Remember Jesus saying to Peter “get thee behind me satan?” Just thinking. And I could be all wet. It's happened before....

I haven’t read this entire thread, but I didn’t see any indication the original question got answered. Maybe it was and I missed it. In any case: 1Ki 22:19 And he (Micaiah) said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. 1Ki 22:21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. There’s no indication they were healed or delivered. Or not. This is something Micaiah knew after the fact. He didn’t look at them and know they were possessed. This sounds more like word of knowledge to me. As to what the practical application looks like? Strangely Scripture is silent about that. Mar 9:17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit; Mar 9:18 And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not. Mar 9:19 He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me. Mar 9:20 And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming. Mar 9:21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child. If you read the entire record, you will see no verse states anyone (including the father) got revelation the child was possessed. One could argue it’s implied, but still I find it odd. I found this to be the consistent pattern. We only have the assumption of others that d. of s. in I Cor. 12 refers to detecting spirit. Could be true, and could be false. I’m not sure at this point. No question twi used it abusively. “It is to discern, detect, be made aware of their presence, and to determine their identity, whether they be the spirits of the devil (diabolos), the holy spirit, or the spirit of man. If evil, whether they may be cast out (this requires the manifestation of Workings of Miracles).” There is no record in the N. T. whatsoever of anyone at all discerning H. S. or spirit of man. Working of miracles? Maybe. All instances referred to it as “healing” or “healed.” Saul got delivered from an evil spirit because David played music. “Many” who were possessed got healed when Jesus taught. Manifestations weren’t involved at all.

Lol. See your point. I do tend to go all over the map when I’m pondering something. Gnosticism, I’ve seen that. What did vp know? That was our starting point. For some that is not resolved. For me it is imminently clear God’s moral will can’t be ignored without consequences. Col. 2 deals with spiritual elitism and a desire to look into things not known, setting aside God’s moral will. But God’s moral will was really the point from the beginning. It is the point of the new birth. And the deeper I dig into it, the more vp’s idea that grace is freedom from moral will blows me away.

Computer programs are entirely logic based. A common string is “if then else.” It is a conditional statement. For example, if all variables are less then ten then add all variables under ten else subtract them. This is called a “boolean” string. I know this seems obscure to some, but makes perfect sense to me. Computer programming is entirely logic based, and when a hole in logic occurs, the program crashes. A computer knows nothing except what it is told. There is nothing magic about it. Likewise: Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Eph 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ; Compare to: Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, Lasciviousness, uncleanness and greediness all pertain to sexual immorality. When a person does this with no remorse, they become darkened. The condition of no remorse is no conscience, they have reasoned out their error. Vp did this with regard to sexual sin. He justified it with the Bible, altering meanings of verses. Such as fornication doesn’t apply to sexual sin, but idolatry. He taught others to do so. Those who support him on the basis of everyone sins don’t understand the Bible. Error for which one has remorse, but doesn’t make a habitual practice is one thing, having no remorse is another. The consequences are being spiritually darkened. Those who support this error do not treat the moral will of God very seriously. “Understanding darkened” is the opposite of “eyes of understanding enlightened.” No remorse involves a reasoned out decision. The reasoned out decision of vp resulted in “darkened” spiritually, if the Bible is correct. On that basis, I have no confidence in anything he taught. The moral will of God stands even if some want to disregard it or minimize it. If one rejects God’s moral will and has no remorse, according to Ephesians that person is spiritually darkened. They are not qualified to teach because they have no spiritual understanding. If you do not respect God's moral will as a reasoned out decision , then you are spiritually darkened. Then you cannot discern light. You have blocked off the possibility of eyes enlightened.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. This is one I thought of this morning. Lcm taught the word “direct” in the Greek Septuagint is the same as “rightly divided.” He expressed how precisely God will direct our paths in the sense of a blank check in all matters. No. That would entail revelation in all matters, else we’d never find the invisible yellow brick road. It would also entail ceasing thinking at all. Surefire formula for failure. Context is wisdom. Paths are defined in context. Pro 3:13 Happy [is] the man [that] findeth wisdom, and the man [that] getteth understanding. Pro 3:14 For the merchandise of it [is] better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. Pro 3:15 She [is] more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her. Pro 3:16 Length of days [is] in her right hand; [and] in her left hand riches and honour. Pro 3:17 Her ways [are] ways of pleasantness, and all her paths [are] peace. If the first two verses of this post are read and understood in context, then trusting in the Lord means trusting His ways of wisdom are best. We acknowledge Him in all our ways by endeavoring to make His ways our ways. The result is the wisdom we put in our minds will direct us in the paths of wisdom. It is very much along the lines of Jesus saying He didn’t seek to do His own will, but God’s. We are not to lean on our own understanding of what we think wisdom might be, but God’s. That involves a great deal of thinking.