Bolshevik

We do not disagree that all belief is not found in the unconscious. Beliefs ARE found in the unconscious. We agree we can consciously change our minds. It is to what degree we are not clear on. Be careful, I did not say subconscious . . . I said unconscious, we cannot meditate on that. We show belief in actions, not just our thoughts. Where do thoughts come from? We are not aware of all the information we take in.

The thread starts out with "changing your mind" or "renew your mind" . . . cause yes you can. Then "deeply held beliefs" . . . which I think implies non-conscious parts of the being . . . prolly not really maybe What Twinky is alluding to I think, is Jung and archetypes . . . or the collective unconscious . . . which we inherit. (what is tat? a type of knot?) . . . We are often defined by our surroundings . . . . good luck with that This is multi-layered stuff.

The opening post I think just relates to parts of a being that are conscious. The majority of our being is not conscious, and we carry out our actions in large part due to our unconscious, as I understand Vaknin and others describe it. Beliefs are found in the unconscious, we cannot actively access that . . . ? In that case, if you changed your mind, that you were never really a believer would make a lot of sense.

That's why Order Thy Steps in My Road Apples was written? Something about a hind and a roe carefully stepping.

This is about The Way experience. . . If you've been through something like this you become "someone else" for awhile. Maybe you snap back afterwards. Where you ever you? Hopefully the link works. . . https://youtu.be/uX9GsLDnAuY

And all Road-apples Lead to the Rock

I've only scene VPW on PFAL, Intermediate, some pictures, and listened to some sunday tapes of him. . . . I'm picturing what the crowd did for him (narcissitic supply). Was he not in that position often? That's where Wayfer leaders always jockeyed to be . . . I assume. I'm assuming it's a dynamic he enjoyed.

I like your 3 points, T-Bone I often wondered what we were doing Way D . . . In fact I was Way D because wondering what the point of TWI was nearly pushed me over the edge . . Literally. . . . But voicing questions led to being yelled at every angle. After being goaded into action I was told to speak to the entire Limb. At twenty one years old I looked out to an audience of every age. My mouth moved but I don't know what I said. Regurgitated whatever. The response was extremely positive. It made no sense. I was simply an object to reflect a collective projection.

Heh heh What good is belief without power? You can change your mind all day, who cares? VPW called it Power For Abundant Living. THEN he brought in the self flagellation of The LAW of Believing Almost genius

I hated every minute of wayferdom but it is still part of my identity. The Courts of Ohio have recently reminded me that it is Hotel California. It is a label given by others. I wish I were told I was never really a wayfer. How does one escape?

Maybe the thread changed its mind. You're opening posts suggests it's completely subjective. But I don't know. Is changing your mind a logical, cognitive decision? Is it an emotional, cognitive decision? Is it unconscious/subconscious? How easily is it changed by an outside force? What is the decision being made anyway? People can say anything. It is always traumatic? Is it never? Why?

I remember now before the last time and most intense of the evening face melt . . . I had shut down. I was supposed to be witnessing with my Way D sis . . . At some point I just stopped in my tracks and couldn't move. She started yelling at me but I couldn't here what she was saying. Just stood there. Couldn't move. Zoned out. Why do we do this? Later got it from the Limb coordinator. I don't know how anyone participates in this stuff without pure rage as fuel.

There was no alcohol or relationships allowed Way D, which I guess was like WOW but no WOW Burgers at the end. I invited a girl over for fellowship and she thought it was something else. Oops. She was ....ed. The Jews in the neighborhood told us they were here first. I was told I ate too much, cause I ate more than middle aged women, so I should contribute more $$$. I got reamed by the Limb coordinator a few times. After one night of being yelled at I went out and was the only one in my group to sign up someone for the class over the entire 6 months. Once it was over, don't think I ever spoke to my "Way D" brothers and sisters again.

Is God/gods a personal image or a shared one?

Facebook and YouTube will change your mind for you. The all powerful algorithm helps this. Billions of minds are connected to their will. You don't even need to be aware you change your mind. Do you? VPW used trappings of Christianity for his game. Here we are, discussing religion vs atheism . . But how does it relate to VPW more than his red herring? He needed people . . . People felt they needed him.

Kinda shooting fish in a barrell. Yes you can go back and forth. Many are pressured into it by coercion or violence. The experience is painful for a reason. Why does it hurt? Something is happening in those "conversions" . . . and I think it happens with people who have never heard of atheism or Jesus. Because it is real and (god) stories are there to describe it. Casting off God doesn't negate the reason the stories were written. Maybe religion is just a way of connecting people. In our modern world, we don't need each other as much as we used to. Atheism is logical.

Shoulda called 'em Special Ed. Retreats were Advances. Gonna catch that red dot, dangit.

Some of the idea of cognitive dissonance on this website I get confused by. I know the feeling of being split in two and operating as two people. Because of the high pressure situation. The chaos (I still have questions about in VPW's work - the contradictions - chaos). Getting those people to collapse into one is the goal. Only it's not like those people are split evenly. They are on different planes of existence so to speak. Values and beliefs are one of the tools to keep people from splitting. Raf is describing a "conversion experience" . . . is my understanding.

I was never a Christian. I was raised a Wayfer. Hated for it. I was told I was born again before I can remember, as a toddler probably. I walked away from everything I knew, people, places, and beliefs. It was traumatic. Physically shook. I was atheist for awhile and now am *shrugs* We are often told what we are. Is what I was saying earlier. Our emotional reaction as I understand is based on what goes on in our heads.

I believe it was one of Robert C. Solomon's works I am alluding to. I will keep looking. He discussed emotions as judgements and are rational. The intelligence of emotions and what they are judging.

Scarcity could lead one to let go, too. I generally assume we all seek to reduce pain and suffering.

I don't see this as quibbling. This is trying to accurately relate subjective experience. I gave a simple flow chart as I understood how events relate to experience. (Event --> thought --> emotion). There's certainly more to grasp with relating beliefs and meaning and thoughts.

I don't think I called out atheists specifically. Or any group or philosophy. If I did I will clarify.

I'm assuming everyone here has shifted a major worldview at least once or twice in their lifetime. Probably more. It is my understanding events are neutral. Our interpretation of them, our beliefs about them, our thinking of them . . . then lead to emotions, or emotional trauma. There are many ways to view prayer. Your mind either came wired or you wired it at some point to not assign meaning to prayer. You have consciously chosen that it is a practice that is not in your best interest. You believe your view of death and mortality gives a greater appreciation, a greater experience, of life.

Flow chart is usually EVENT --> THOUGHT --> EMOTION I would think BELIEF = THOUGHTS Or changing thinking different than changing belief?