Bolshevik

We are not chairs - we have bodies. So do many of the dead, for a time. Agency is limited for a time or none at all. Our existence I think is felt in how others do or do not acknowledge it. The social aspect is felt. There's an acknowledgement of oneself by oneself, too.

I think you're distinction between social contract and agency are . . . important . . . certainly it's own topic. I question the agency of the god of Victor Paul Wierwille. That god was/is held to a higher power, The Law Believing. (I think Juedes wrote that, I don't remember)

How minds like VPWs perceive things. How others misinterpret people like him. Sorry, I did not keep a running bibliography. It is my impression of many sources.

Fiat currency might be a better example. The paper itself is worthless. Meaningless. A made up value. We still use it.

I do appreciate your response. Your definition seems great. You reject the argument that gods exist . . . that's fine if that's better wording . . . which I would ask do you see there has been any function of the gods? It would make perfect sense one group rejects the other groups gods if they serve different purposes. They exist if others say they do: National boundaries technically do not exist. Sovereignty of a nation depends to large degree if others acknowledge it or not. I intend to come back about individuality.

Vaknin (I'm assuming) would call VPW as having a schizoid core. . . . The Way was set up around his psyche. . . . I don't think that is news. The other structures outside The Way, real or not, come from minds - both the conscience and unconscience aspects of the psyche - and further a large collection of them. I don't think that is news.

Oh, are you asking if I plagiarized? Lately a lot has been influenced by Vaknin. I came across him being influenced by professionals in the real world - after dealing with another human being the courts. I'm thinking back almost 20 years, asking the same question, why can't we look at other churches? Why do I vibrate when others tried to convert me? I was recently kept from my youngest son because "I was raised in The Way" . . . belief . . . state . . . society . . . The Way International

The Way International - All individuals and systems are extensions of the MOG. Individuals are enmeshed. Boundaries are dissolved and thoughts are all the same. Totalitarian in nature. God is an extension of the (false) self. Individual identity is The Way and this isolates the person from society/State. Christianity (in the West) - The individual is distinct from family units and groups. Individuals have relationships with defined boundaries within these units/groups. Gods are "homogenized" into one god. Individuals have a relationship with this construct. Christianity added layer beneath Greco-Roman societal/state structure in antiquity. Atheism (in the West) - Individuals are central. Denial of submission/relationship to any gods, since they are not scientifically real, and therefore misleading and dangerous, perhaps intentionally. Reason can now be a more thoroughly sharpened skill which over time can build a better world. Social groups are primarily to be about shared interests and separate in relation to the State. Often associated/viewed as an "atomized-leaning society". Here's a thread to parse out this idea. Hope it's not too political - tried to keep it general.

Maybe that's a hint. A lot are said with the eyes. Used to be someone here who knew what that was.

May you live forever!

Yeah Pinker had a lot to say Penn and Teller do too This thread is on Greasespot stemming from A Law of Believing thread. The Law of Believing . . . As I understand uses a god that is obedient to rules. It gives the individual equal power with that god. Which ultimately makes no sense if everyone can have that power. Let the games begin. It's easy to remove that god later because if I have proven I don't have certain powers god certainly does not. Useless god. It's easier to see VPW'S use for this god in his need for supply. He reorganized his environment and the people in it to provide supply. So we get repackaged systems like The Law of Believing. Gods outside The Way is a different ball of wax. They don't always exist for narcissistic supply. They have other roles. The theological consequences are ultimately political ones, IMO.

This would result in Silo Mentality? Emogene's use of bully tactics to suppress rivals is noteworthy.

For discussion sake, using the iceberg . . . I agree we work to gain more control . . . that is the upper portion, and the smallest portion. Like our bodies we can learn to exert control over more and more, and applaud those who do more than most. Like many of it's functions, we have no ultimate control over our bodies. They will fail at some point. They can be manipulated and destroyed by outside forces. We can't stop that.

Oh . . . please continue on that? I like how you phrased that. "rewarded with fiefdoms" . . . the MOG almost has a goal and purpose for competency

The internet and the algorithm are more efficient at creating modern cults. Wouldn't VPW simply explode at the sight of unlimited, superior, countless sources of competition?

Hi T-Bone, I think we are of the same opinion when it comes to Freud vs Jung. Applying an idea like "the whole is greater than the some of its parts" to a population of people I think easily implies the origin of gods. Theism vs Atheism is just semantics in that regard. We are not blank slates, tabula rasa, which I think was Locke's opinion, so there's an idea we have a predisposition to our beliefs. You've probably heard of Haidt who's done some work on that idea. Although I think he focuses on political opinions, same principle. When we are applying logic to decipher our beliefs are we getting more in line with what we always were from birth, or with the rest of the world, or both? The opening post states there is a journey involving mind changing. Also states there is external opposition that denies this journey. Which I think is fascinating. "Maybe you were never really "X Belief" " is possibly a very valid statement.

Mentioned earlier belief is effectively moved via the "sword" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism If you scroll down to Eurobarometer survey 2015 - Religious affiliation in the EU You see major differences between East and West Germany. Obviously majorly impacted by the Soviets. The type of society people live in obviously influences how they self-identify. If the society/environment around a person changes . . . that changes or largely influences the beliefs? In Wayworld, people changed because they were immersed in Wayworld.

I'm guessing the behavior was innate with VPW. He did not read a handbook "Cultleaders 101: Roping your first follower via Operant Conditioning". They (cult leaders) act out behavior based on an internal environment different from most people's (they lack a stable identity). The follower projects meaning onto the leader based on how they think most people think. Example would be seeing strength in Hitler during time of crisis, "Wow, he is not fazed, what strength" . . . in reality he doesn't feel the same emotions because he cares about obtaining supply, not the situation.

Thanks WW, this is fascinating. It has personality disorder written all over it. Countless folks did not know what they were aspiring to be.

Conditioning people to love their servitude is more efficient than strait coercion. Applying psychological stress . . . Then the solution . . . Over and over and over . . Typically in religious context it's threat of hell then promise of heaven that's the combo. Thinking of PFAL . . . The thief cometh not . . . Followed by having the abundant life. . . . VPW wasn't straight out saying you're going to hell if you don't serve him. (There is no hell . . Oh but there is) Seems a bit more subtle way to go about things. And it's right there in the beginning.

Envy . . . Narcissistic Injury . . . Cain and Abel . . . he has to imagine a dream-world scenario in which he always wins . . . which I think there is a word for . . . pathetic

Jung worked out his ideas . . . not alone . . . by interacting with people. In the connections. Looking for patterns. Looking for solutions. A collective unconscious is not an out there concept. We are limited in that scope in these forums. . . . ? Even a bible verse say "where two or three gather in my name, there I am in the midst of them" The idea that something exists between us is a very old idea. VPW needed to hijack that area . . yes? We are more than our thoughts. We are more than ourselves. Can we change our beliefs? That sounds complicated.

I understand VPW as an NPD. They are able to play these games because they fundamentally operate differently than most of us. Yeah these types get you in the front of your head . . . is that where the game is?

WOW always ended in The Rock of Ages. Obviously that's a marketing strategy . . . but did success really matter? It really served to feed the leader, did it not?

They do look like skulls! The iceburg I think is Freud but the collective unconscious is Jung (who worked with and fell out with Freud). That can all be googled. There's two things I am getting from this: 1) Forget about if god exists, do you exist? 2) Do we have as much control over our minds and beliefs as we think we do? Isn't that the point of The Law of Believing?