Bolshevik

Certainly being in TWI and the out one experiences a change in reality . . . was his experience different? His constant rants about FEAR . . . when that's all there ever was . . . entire spines just shot . . . heads bent back and looking down . . spurts around every corner . . . The there's places like this. The medium is the message.

Found old photo from the Green Room LCM . . .

I can understand VPW passing the mantle to a doofus because . . . self destruction would be in his nature. I don't think legacy was in his sites. You are suggesting the Oklahoma Overlord was a puppet from Day 1?

My limited understanding of VPW and psychology indicate VPW was a Cluster B personality type. Meaning he likely suffered significant emotional/psychological trauma as an infant or toddler. He was Victim #1. Lacking the ability now to form a stable sense of self they (cluster Bs) outsource this problem to others. They can be copycats . . . like toddlers copy others to learn . . . VPW fancied himself a minister so he copied others . . . he plagiarized . . . and thought it not robbery because that's what children do. Infants and children require that the adults adapt their lives to the infant's care. They cry and make demands - or act cute. That's all they can do for the time being. VPW, stuck in that state of schizoid core identity and in the form of an authority figure was a singularity that naturally induced the cult structure around HIM. VPW's latent, instinctive behavior conditioned others around him like infants condition their parents to respond. LCM was caught up as many were as a young adult to care for Baby Victor. I am still inclined to throw uneaten food at LCM though.

This website is your fault LCM. You fathead.

Hey LCM! Remember that time everyone started talking about you on the internet? Then non-wayfers were able to print stuff off and target children? When was that? The 90s maybe? Jerk.

You could probably sort VPW's "teachings" into at least two buckets: those intended to gather narcissistic supply and defense mechanisms. The Constitution of the United States is a living document. It is designed to change. The bones in our bodies have osteoclasts and osteoblast. Even our bones are constantly being rebuilt. Any good system has change over time in mind. What mechanism is there for change in a cult? They're trying to capture the past (in twi). Only death and lawyers force change from the outside. Not from the inside.

Ha!

I think the word being alluded to is codependency. People pleasers. If people can change for the better the alternative is true. Liquids take the shape of their container.

Probably both. You can't have one without the other. There can't be a here without a there. Followers who leave often repeat the pattern in another group? As I understood it's (mortification) the only time they (leader) come out of their cocoon . . . feel alive . . . change direction. It's an opportunity to grow past whatever development stage they got stuck on. . . . . They might get stuck again but that's still an improvement. (What I gather from Vaknin) The art is to get past all the defenses.

I hear narcissistic mortification can trigger change. But that's just Vaknin talking.

It's standard in TWI as far as I know. "Look! This person has a degree . . . Isn't The Ministry Wonderful? Aren't we all just thankful for The Word?" To the next person they'll say "Going to school is not putting God First. Shame Shame Shame." Ambivalence, or whatever.

Ok, I think I might understand . . . trying something else.

The Green Card was just a list of empty promises? There was lists of benefits of SIT, which were hard to grasp. I remember a folder or something might have had a list of beliefs.

If this were true, leaving The Way would simply involve changing your beliefs and practices. One would have to know what they are, too. Jesus Christ is Not God The Dead are Not Alive Isn't that like saying saying I don't believe in something and calling it a belief?

If you're suggestion using "idea" in place of god?

Changing The Way was once a big topic in TWI, among younger crowds. LCM screwed it up and we need to get back to Da Turd/VPW . . . Who a lot of us have no memory of. Making the Ministry better was well intentioned but misguided. . . Carrot Also, this leader no-leader stuff is an interesting topic . . . . I can hear Vaknin now . . .

Vaknin has a PhD in some physics fringe science distance learning school. But he is associated with psychology. He even seems to be cited in Psych Today.

No reference to what university or published works?

One purpose of discussions is to make ideas more clear, another is to develop new ones. The Way International has its own definition we all know. I am of the opinion we agree that we don't agree with its view of itself. (Freely avails himself. . . what? Not herself?). The Way has a hidden set of beliefs. They are liars. TWI is a result of a pathology that is not unique to TWI (IMO). I will agree definitions are moving targets. I don't expect to have the same definitions for myself over time. Discussions help tune in to the changing times, hopefully in a connected way. Using those other (changing) definitions (of atheism and Christianity) might shine light on what TWI really is. I assume having an area to discuss belief on this website is to contrast it to TWI. If the role of Christianity was say according to one theory, for the Roman Empire to pacify unrest in Judea, that god serves a role. The Empire wants unity? That god functioned to unite Rome . . . although Rome fell and fragmented . . . the church fragmented . . and carried on in other ways. If we caste off god, is unity less important? Or, if atomized societies are growing . . . atheism just fits better? Who has their own god they share with nobody? Here we need to grasp what gods do (whether or not they exist is not a primary concern - we are discussing them though). There's a role, a function, a meaningful purpose for gods. TWI's god is to contrast it with, probably Christianity, from which it borrowed. That would be VPW's god's main role? It's function I think get's into his pathology. I think Juedes referred to TWI as atheistic in discussing that god's role/function in The Law of Believing. But there is a god involved? And spirits. Is it atheism? Is it theism? Is it both? I will try to clarify further.

I was ranting about one psychology becomes many. Then I worried about your diet. I'm going with omelettes and kraut.

Corn. Lots of friggin corn. Because Ohio. The cult leader got away with it. Right? He won. Why do they attack the followers? The followers already attack themselves. It's the nature of organism. Don't they know that?

Also my doing, I'm sure

There was only one person on this website who described VPW up close to me. A long time ago. Just throwing that out there. If anyone gets it.