Bolshevik

Hey T-Bone, I'm viewing "bad cult" followers and leaders as having a disease. A literal psychological disease . . . a more permanent disease like NPD/BPD in some and a more curable one as in the induced borderline features in the article. (borderlines live on the border of neurosis and psychosis . . . that's just an excuse to say that ) I hear you saying not all cults have a leader. But there is a motivation for starting a cult? VPW needed narcissistic supply, because of the sickness, it's what he NEEDED, like an addiction . . . unless he was cured. Folks also join cults because of the promise of short cuts in life, easy street. Other reasons too, but those are secondary. So the group is providing the follower with something, that is unhealthy, like a drug. I do think we have some overlap of understanding.

The role LCM played in TWIs non reality . . . By yelling like he did. Like he was a force for control when he was really a puppet. The anxiety caused by the manifestations and the torture of witnessesing and all other aspects of twig in certainly made him more digestible.

Use of the words tactics and contrived. . . . Would imply some in the group are aware of what they are doing?

Correct

In the Way you have a similar situation, Believingly Believe for something spiritual. The jargon was nonsense? Even if people acted like they understood. I am Groot

I don't know if you saw the other link above, a video where Vaknin discusses how some people (cluster Bs) relate to others. There's interesting dynamics there. You can get some definition of what a healthy relationship is and the various ways it can go wrong . . . or fundamentally, foundationally, be "bad". That's psychology. I'm saying here that good and bad results from the cult experience are due to healthy or unhealthy relationships. The cult leader is supposed to be the central theme, the main antagonist, the worst offender. But he can't act alone. Cut them off from others and what can they do? Here I'm saying the leader is a cluster B . . . and is able to induce an environment creating other cluster B . . . and the dynamics of how cluster Bs interact on a grander scale. A cult, is more the one or two people. It's made of people. You were hopeful by changing out the people the cult would change. That's sociology. Or it's an organizational structure . . . but people are relating more openly than in a normal organization. So it's not simply people, it's the connections between them? Stopping here for now.

ok sorry I am hopeful something, like using object relations models, could connect all the descriptions one day.

What was fascinating, and would take forever to explain is the non-reality created. Or constant switching of reality. When everything (like words) has multiple meanings or no meaning or assumed meaning or implied meaning or inferred meaning it's always a guessing game. It's wild.

And obviously in the um, cult we are usually referring to, what does that mean?

I learned a number of websites were targeted and thought "she" came from a group of university students. There was a place where many people had numerous doppelgangers and this was the norm. There was a guessing game of who's who. I think "she" was actively pitting others against each other. But that may have been part of the game.

Bad cults are bad because they are bad. Bad cults do bad things. Bad things are bad. Is that a definition? The article was to see if there is something deeper. More specific.

Right T-Bone . . . I quoted the article . . . All I'm seeing is describing symptoms of a cult ( the bad kind) . . . but nothing really says what it is.

Thinking about it was the aggression of an adult multiple times my age that caused more anxiety than the SIT. They had read the internet. They knew better. In a twig fellowship SIT caused me great anxiety too. Who pretends to do things that cause them pain? LCM was a release for the wayfer? Others patterned his behavior but he was the solution to the problem created by the solution. Right?

Yeah, aware of the wikepedia info. So, attempting to refine the question. I mean everyone in The Way is smiling. Not harmful. Everyone freely avails themselves. Not controlling. (oldiesm@n's argument) We'd have to define harm and control?

I can remember back in the 90s being yelled at "You're speaking in tongues in your head while I'm talking to you!" by non-wayfers. The opposite of what The Way encourages. How does that filter perception?

I've had many "theories" but back then wondered why that person simply ....ed me off so much. So I went along with it. There was this "language" being done among many people and I was really eager to figure it out. Then I began to understand it simply by being immersed in it for a long time and then the games really began. It all could have been a game or an experiment or a ploy. Doesn't matter. You can understand and use Wayspeak, and at the same time not be able to explain Wayspeak to someone who doesn't understand Wayspeak. It's not that Wayspeak can't be explained. LCM had a language the other puppets did not.

Language is one thing The Way International changes in the people involved with it. This is a common effect for those who have an experience with a cult. My interacting with the group around that Gen-2 character that came through Greasespot Cafe changed my language too. Is that unclear?

He did have a strong opinion about the proper way to eat corn on the cob.

absolutely agree . . . "harmful and controlling cults" . . . are there healthy cults? All seriousness. The leader alone does not make a cult. The leader is likely has narcissistic personality disorder NPD, MNL, or ASPD . . . a cluster B. The follower alone does not make a cult. The follower, in the above article behaves as a borderline . . . a cluster B. So what's a cult?

Here's a youtube LINK on internal and external objects to explain personality disorders . . . which likely applies heavily to the cult leader

I don't know if you're familiar with object relations theory. Vaknin did a very simplified explanation I will see if I can find. From the article:

Hey T-Bone, Here's a LINK - Hassan is one of many cited in there - so we're getting somewhere

1. These websites are used by (non twi affliated folks) as weapons. The internet has intended and unintended consequences out in the real world. 2. There was a character that came through this site like 10 years ago. Actually is was a group. Think they were doing some psych test about reality. Still makes me cross-eyed occasionally because of meta-talk. Did that break the first rule of fight club? 3. I remember late 90s always being in a heightened state of distress (in twi) constantly. That's gotta fry circuits and change perception. When you get away from it you see things differently. (Point #1 would have aggravated this). 4. How much time does LCM spend on the internet? There's a way into that head. (see point #2). Especially if as President of The Way he had no power.

Anyone remember that Gen-2 character? What's that got to do with LCM? Because of the internet . . . people were downloading crap . . . a speaking to you like you had an f'ing clue. That made LCM even more paranoid didn't it?