Bolshevik

Johniam, Thank you for your reply. If you can articulate further, I'd like to hear what people you believe comprise TWI. How does your mind distinguish between "wayfer" and "non-wayfer" or "former wayfer", for lack of better terms, if you will? What people ARE TWI?

Johniam, If you're able to grasp the gist here, how do YOU define what TWI is? Is it people? Is it a corporation? Is it an idea? Is TWI the Ministry which the Word which is the Household of followers? Something else? What do YOU think?

Eating food risks death by food poisoning and disease. But there's laws and inspections to try and prevent that. People still eat and still die from it. Restaurants don't see inspections as an attack on the food industry. Is brainwashing under regulation? Any group that forms could be inspected for that?

Batman doesn't work that way. Just looking for impressions here. There's no right or wrong or praise or guilt.

Thanks johniam, this is what I'm looking for.

If it wasn't all an accident, if it was malicious intent, then there's no need to try and "fix the ministry", to restore to VPW's "original intent", like so many have tried. Because that's generally the spin.

Sure, thanks. If we assume VPW was cognizant of his actions and understood the effects, how much does is that still a factor in today's leadership? Are today's leaders performing the same acts, out of the same motives, or simply out of blind and twisted imitation?

Actually I think we do agree. Sometimes the worst part of a butt-chewing is that everyone who was there denies it ever happened.

That's interesting. That's quite a level of awareness of manipulation by the manipulator. This was vpw's work? This something I'd like to by able to distinguish. That awareness of the guilty party's manipulation, on a timeline.

This is a good point. Many things that happened didn't happen because we saw them through our own eyes.

There's varying perspectives of TWI here I'm trying to navigate. One thought I've had is that, in my experience, people almost never "joined" TWI. People left. When witnessing, you were more likely to knock on the door of a few people who had previously had experience with TWI (and they'd let you know it), then ever find someone interested in checking it out. My guess is that most posters here saw the days when new people would come to fellowship and that was normal. I bet many saw both. I know a number of people, in my experience, who'd stop coming to fellowship, and then when asked, would say they didn't want to come anymore because "It's not the same anymore". Based on that, times of growth vs times of attrition, does anyone know if that affected their own personal experience with TWI in a significant way?

(from link) Identification with an aggressor — In psychology, an unconscious process in which a person adopts the perspective or behavior patterns of a captor or abuser. Some researchers consider it a partial explanation of Stockholm syndrome. Regression — In psychology, a return to earlier, usually childish or infantile, patterns of thought or behavior. Maybe you're right Definitely. . . .*TM* . ha ha ha

I can remember going back home after Way D, (more intense analog of W.O.W. I'm told). I was maybe 20. Very harsh reproving my folks, "reproving" left and right. They were proud, never had seen them so happy. That's what they wanted to see. They couldn't get enough. They want "toxic behavior". The delivery, the harshness, didn't seem to matter. It's just how they talk. It matters to much of the rest of the world on the outside. Not to waybots. Why?

Well I know in twi at least, that sort of behavior, the harshness and yelling, at times brought people together. Not saying that it's right or wrong. I know behavior expected in twi is shunned elsewhere. Relationship expectations regarding appropriate behavior can change depending on context. What brought people together in twi could destroy what they have outside. In twi you knew to treat people "on the outside" differently. The context of these relationships would be a factor in labeling what is toxic behavior, IMO, since there's no one way to survive.

Was the difference in the words, was there a physical difference?

They could very well be in some ways. A gang . . . based on a quick google search . . . collects funds illegally. This would lead back to the taxing idea. Pay taxes, less incentive for organized gimmicks . . . more leads for the law if necessary.

Good point . . . Although as far as I know most joined willingly? They were not bred, like religion is.

That will work JJ, thanks. Really just looking for an impression, can you remember when you first heard the verse? Before maybe twi's memory pegs took hold.

Can I ask if you noticed anything different about them, their "wrath", as compared to when confronted by the "imitators"? Did they really get in your face?

Oh I'll take your word for it Rocky, that it's something of a pipe dream. I do like everyone's take on the subject though.

When reciting "John 10:10" What's the first word that jumps out at you? Where in your mind does that verse initially take you? Or, what part/aspect of the verse do you feel stands out the most to you? And maybe when you were in The Way you thought of it differently than you do now, that'd be interesting to know. Curious. (P.S. - NOT a doctrinal discussion/thread - mostly just want impressions)

Yes, definitely. You made a decision on your own. What were you thinking? . . . Better yet, WHY were you thinking? That's not the Program(ing)!!

Your last statement, WW, in parenthesis implies there's was some prior experience. Not true for everyone. These "Butt chewings" were everyday, almost constant, in some form or another, at varying degrees (these weren't in the form of loud words alone). An alternative is hard to imagine. (And imagine what internal dialogues are like) . . . Not to derail, JJ, these lists can go on forever, what pattern is found? . . . can we really grasp what that was . . . IS?

I think I can only get a feel for how others feel about this subject, having the common twi experience, on this site. I think I've suggested a couple concepts, at least. I get the feeling you're aware of something more detailed somewhere?

Yes, I believe there's more than just imitation. By imitation I mean looking up to someone out of a desire to be better. Coercion, intimidation, flat out fear, is another ingredient, to developing or altering our behavior. Is that what you mean?