Estimated Prophet

Thanks for taking the time to provide such a thoughtful and detailed response Chockful. I don't think we are too far apart in our views and appreciate having my blind spots pointed out. (to a degree...!!) Yes, I do have my judgments and that is not necessarily wrong. I also believe it is Jesus Christ motivating my expression here, but like any other person I may be mistaken. At first I honestly saw little profit in airing out the junk from so long ago. However, from following the dialogs I can see it has brought resolution to many hearts. I think the passage of time has helped bring about a healthy ability to examine these events. If my remarks have led any to think the Trustees were innocent in these matters, then all the more I pray they press into Christ for sound wisdom and judgment!! I would love to give Ralph a call and hear him out. I was hoping he might enter this dialogue, but respect his choice to stay quiet. If he is active in the Biblical Christian Church I'd love to know where. I don't know much about this, I just know Him who does.

Those are some very good and valid points Chockful. Except for the central statement I have quoted here. Since I am the one who has emphasized the need to focus on the presence of Jesus Christ , let me assure you it is most certainly NOT a tactic to "lead away from the way of truth." That is as perverse a statement as I have come across in quite some time. My intention was simply to direct our hearts into the sweet center of God's will. Namely Jesus Christ. I am also asserting that the failure to hold Jesus Christ as the head, and to recognize his presence is at the root of why so many good people were hurt so badly because of their association with TWI. I will also say that The Greasespot serves the Lord well in helping us to see that TWI did not at all follow The Lord Jesus Christ in all of its practices and doctrines. Once you recognize that you can hold onto Christ without being involved in TWI, then you are free indeed to be led to safe pasture. Perhaps Ralph's boldest statement in this interview was when he told Craig "Dr Weirwille was Wrong!" In 1986 I would have called that heresy. Now I recognize how right Ralph was and I am spiritually in a much better place. Praise Be to God I thank God for all the people, like Ralph Dubofski, who have fed me the Word and pointed me in the right direction. I am also learning to forgive those who intentionally or unintentionally hurt me or others through their disobedience to the Faith. If you truly seek proper training, then I suggest you Give Christ a Try, and let him be Lord in your heart and life. If you choose to investigate all the sinful and destructive practices of TWI, then (as Jerry Garcia sang on The Festival Express) "You Better take Jesus With You" Peace

As a matter of fact, Groucho, It Did !! ( how did you know? ) " Don't lend a hand to wave no flag atop no Ship of Fools " Then I bounced right into "Going Down the Road and Feeling Bad, Don't wanna be treated this-a-Way" And don't you know the words sank in real deep I like to think my Captain of Salvation was singing it along with me !! maybe not ...but It sure would make a good soundtrack for the Cutting Through the Fog movie And who do you suppose would be the first mate that rocked the boat? Peter Wade maybe ...? .... and Jen-O I stand corrected. I think you just hit The Mark ! Thank You Keep Trucking

Thanks for noticing! For those who didn't notice, Jesus was there all the time in most of The Sing Along the Way songs!! " and today He is still sweeter than he was the day before.." ...etc.... Forgive me if I seem too insensitive regarding the bad stuff. It does strike me that stuff I refused to believe 20 years ago is stuff I can't deny today. The Playboy Mansion seems pretty tame compared to some of these stories! It is all so tragic. Especially how such abuse was associated with Christian Ministry. God Bless You Excathedra, and everyone else. May the Savior's Love have full course in your hearts and homes

For those interested, The Estimated Prophet is a song by the Grateful Dead about a wigged out Jesus Freak who was always on a rant at their shows. I only found that out recently, but the song did inspire me to go out WoW in 82. "Don't worry 'bout me No" Peace

Thanks Y'all for the Feedback. It made for a very stimulating cup of coffee this morning. I almost spilled as I pictured Ham with his teeth latched on to a 'mogs' ear. Too Funny. Pawtucket: I was aware that the interview was 'simply the facts' regarding those events, and it was indeed consistently focused in that regard. I think it was wise to stick to the facts as you did, which allowed the spirit of God within the reader to provide whatever insight was needed. I was just wondering what Ralph's take on Christ is now. I know lots of us love to hear him express his heart on stuff. I also think Ralph must trust you quite a bit to come to you to tell his story. Kudos. I know I have been preachy, and its because I believe that Jesus Christ is the Prince of Peace, and our all in all. Stuff I learned well in 'der Vey.' ( and I believe he was indeed present in the Yak twig. too bad no one seemed to notice .) Now I'll address some of these earthly things. I don't deny there was lots of damage done, especially in the attempts to do damage control. But Now I See spelled that out really well. One of my best friends was skewered in that manner at the Britt Lynn meeting in '87. ( and it was a can of worms ) My friend was asked directly by Britt if he thought Dr was comitting adultery. I didn't know it at the time, but Britt must have. But my friend knew personally a young lady who had been bedded. He had also promised not to tell anyone else. And there he was, put on the spot, in a very agitated scene. Being asked to betray her trust regarding some Very Personal Information. He neither confirmed nor denied, and was marked and avoided and all of that. It makes me sick inside just thinking about it. It was Hell Lots of good relationships were ruined in those days. and yes, lots of that was done in the 'name of Jesus.' God Have Mercy but please don't let that keep you from pressing in to the True Jesus. He is still Sweeter than he was the day before. The only Way out of this mess. ( I don't know about Krishna, but I hear "it takes so long" to get to know him so I'm sticking to Jesus) Britt Lynn is a former Navy Seal. A real fighter. I am not saying he is without fault. None of us are. I don't approve of everything Britt said and did that night. But I do admire how he faced the issue head on. The guy has a lot of guts. There may have been some covering of his arse, but he was soon out of a job anyways, as were all the other salaried leaders that were there. It grieves me how the enemy was able to mess with their lives and ministries. I will say the Word he taught from the scripture was right on the mark. He taught Galations 1: 6-10. How there are some who "trouble" the people so they can effectively "pervert" the gospel. "For do I now persuade men or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ " I don't know for sure "Who" any one else is serving, but I am intent on serving my Christ Jesus. Peace

Thanks Pawtucket. I'm still curious as to what motivated this interview and you have given me some insight. Perhaps there were systematic problems with the organization. But I think the interview shows the corrupt practices of top level leadership more than the organization as a whole. On a local level, I think their were more Ralph Dubofski types on the scene than those leaders who took to Lording it over everyone. In 1987 in Dallas there was a huge meeting of all twig coordinators in respnse to John Lynn's first visit to Dallas. John at the time, had a list of controversial charges against TWI of which adultery was the most alarming. Our Limb Coordinator, Britt Lynn, admitted he was opening a can of worms. He faced to controversy head on, looking for two or three witnesses to verify the charges. There must have been a hundred or so of us there. It was very tense. As for adultery. No one condoned it it any way, shape , or form. We looked at transcripts from the Christian Family and Sex class. No doctrinal support there for adulterous behavior. " I'd rather my kids come home hot and bothered than satisfied and scared" The concern with John Schoenheit's paper on adultery, as I recall, was the statement that went something like: 'perhaps Dr. Wierwill was wrong about adultery' The concern was that this statement opened the door to further notions such as 'perhaps Dr was wrong about tithing... about believing, about One God...etc." The concern was that this attacked the integrity of the Word. I now believe that forbidding these sorts of questions allowed doctrinal and practical error to go unchecked. We looked at I and II Timothy. How the first century church first turned away from the Man of God Then turned away from the Word of God Then turned away from God. I know my opinion isn't largely embraced here, and that's fine. I just see a lot more of what was Right with the organization as a whole in those days. I suggest, as we look back with our perspective of today, that we don't ignore all the good and godly elements. I encourage one and all to resist the devil and to draw nigh unto Christ. I have been observing this for a long time. I think looking at the muck and the mire is not healing. Tell me Pawtucket, Did Ralph have anything to say about the Lord Jesus Christ in your conversation? I promise you, If you will turn your eyes upon Jesus ( and perhaps my words sound foolish to some, but they are in truth The Power of God and the Wisdom of God) If you will look full in his wonderful face, then the things of earth will grow strangely dim...."

Two last thoughts: 1. These experiences and influences will serve to draw us closer to your Maker, or drive you further away. The choice is ours. 2. A practical error which became a doctrinal error is this one: 'Obeying leadership is just like obeying God.' Not Always. Press On

Yes. Thanks Ralph for Everything you were doing in the 80's. Thanks others here who were on the scene to confirm Ralph's report. For the record I was not even a twig coordinator when all this went down, and so was pretty much in the dark. I thank God now I never served as a leader on a Way property. I was spared much. The local leadership in Dallas and in Texas did a fine job in expressing what was happening, both publicly and privately. Much to their detriment I might add, since their livelihood was dependent on the benevolence of the Trustees. The ax came down and came down hard in 1989. I can see now that no one I was close to had much of an idea of the corrupt practices taking place. It seemed that once the problem was recognized, then there was a surge of accusation and complaint. All of us finally realized that we weren't crazy about certain things and began to speak up about it. Lots of close relationships were wrecked in the process. Thanks for always being open and candid Ralph, with genuine godly wisdom. I recall the Trunk Coordinator having a smoke with the folks in Dallas before a big meeting in 1984. Most VIPs would be hidden away in some holy place, but Ralph was right at home with the people. He then taught out of IThessalonians, and his words concerning Paul's manner of entering in still live in my heart. You should have been there!! That day is my fondest memory of Ralph. How he managed to consistently speak as pleasing God and not men, and to still be included in the Yak twig, is most remarkable. Shalom

Are we to think everything we were taught in the Way Ministry was wrong? I think not. Hi Ham. Someday we'll have to take a nice long walk in the woods. I walk like a turtle, so it won't be hard to keep up. I think we'd have a very interesting conversation. I've been deceived before, and I'm sure I'll be deceived again, but I believe The Lord knows the way through the wilderness. If I'm wrong, then maybe I'll go back to college, or venture to the Terrapin Station. Sometimes words mean different things to different people. If you think the Way was a Biblical Research Ministry you would be correct but you might be caught in idolatry and deception. Now if you think The Way is the Lord Jesus Christ You would also be correct and might just be walking in the Light of the Truth. I think we were deceived to think VP, or Craig, or Chris were capable of being Lord. I think that is the kind of thing that drove them into the craziness of this topic. Only Jesus is capable of being the Head of the Church. Instead of waiting for instructions on the Telex. I suggest we learn to trust the instruction of the Christ within. Walk On

"Today if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts" I salute Ralph for the integrity of his Stand in 1987. But I have to wonder why he chooses to bring it all back up now. Yes. It is good to be aware of the presence and influence of evil in our midst. But Why, now that he wants to speak up, does he fail to direct our hearts back to The Good Shepherd? After listening to his diatribe my heart is aching with grief. Thank God for my Savior Jesus whom I can turn to. That's where the genuine healing is. Yes, pal. I see Christ in Ralph Dubofski. I am just seeing other things under the surface. Things trying to stifle the Christ in his heart of hearts. What is really behind this message? Are we to believe that everything the Way Ministry taught was wrong? I think not. We are very blessed with an incredible knowledge of the Truth. We are even more blessed to have recognized and pulled down those things contrary to the obedience of Christ. Well if I've learned anything, it is to not buy everything an intelligent and persuasive man spits out. Sorry Pal. and I would love to hear what Ralph has learned about Christ in the past 20 years. His ability to communicate Christ is sorely missed in the Church. We still have more battles to fight. More strongholds to pull down. Welcome Back Ralph. I want to hear more from you.

...Well Well.... Ralph sure named a lot of names. He seemed to forget one who was present in all the goings on of the inner circle. One who was in a great position of authority yet sadly ignored. Many even believed he was absent, never noticing his presence still the Truth lives and abides Forever. and failure to believe him and to obey him remains man's basic spiritual problem. So Do you want to be frustrated? then look at others. Do you want to be miserable? then look at yourself. but if you want to have Peace then turn your eyes upon Jesus.... the Sweetest name I know... ...constantly abiding....faithful and true... and Christ Jesus will lift you up and into the lap of the Almighty Father and make you perfect, established, strengthened, and settled. He Is Our Hope of Glory Ralph never mentioned The Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I wonder why

What I choose to consider is how Jesus Christ manifests himself in his elect. that, in no way, renders "insigificant" the consequences of unrighteous behavior. If you are hearing 'CES BOD -talk', or 'Way Brain-talk", then meybe you need to stop looking at the flesh and start looking at the spirit of holiness. The Way and CES really have declared the Truht that lives and abides forever, in spite of their sinful ways. If you think I am blind to the egregious acts of unrighteousness perpetrated by those who ought to know better, then you haven't heard me. If you don't know what I am saying, than perhaps you don't yet know Him , for whom I speak. Honestly. WordWof, my conversation with you is not at all unlike my last conversations with the CES folks. Not unlike the dressing downs I got at the hands of the Way Corps. I've heard the likes of all this before, but I when I choose to believe the Word, the shield of Faith estinguishes the firey darts being flung at me. "Vile". "Grab a Bat", " Shame on you for not being Outraged". Those are all words you introduced, Wolf, not me. Yet you twist it around to berate me for throwing them back at you. Those in Indianna also spun my words to make me look ignorant and blind. But with more love than what I am getting from you. SO BE IT Yes. The problem is how to deal with believers who practice sin. Your method, or The way Corps Method, or the CES method, or The Momentous method, or the Anti -Christ's method, or the Way of Cain's method... ( and I am not going all over the place here, I am just hitting the same point ) ... your method is contray to the Way of Life and Peace. You find me out of line, so you insult me and berate me and do the 'tough love' of tearing me down so that you can build me back up. Except the Way Corps never realy learned how to build people back up. They prefer to leave them beaten into submission. Would I ever choose to bring my sins to light with the liokes of you? Hell NO ! and by the way....God BLess You Too....... The Way of Life and Peace moves in unconditional Love to gently conform a soul to the image of Christ and cleanse it of all unrighteosness. . CES didn't like this approach any more than you. They even removed me from their mailing list. Not long after rejecting the Word I spoke to them, the powers that be determined that Elizabeth was overtaken in a fault. You know the story well. They went the Way of Cain to attack their sister in Christ. Here is a Word I shared with them in 1999. One they even published in their contentious magazine. One which John Lynn rebutted in the same magazine. One which I believe John is able to know and understand more clearly today: ( those with eyes to see can see the transformation in this Apostle and Techer of the Lord Jesus Christ Glory Be to God in His People) " For such is the will of God that by doing right you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men. Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. Honor all men, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the King, ... for this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God, a man bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly. ... For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example to follow in his steps, who committed no sin, nor was deceit found in his mouth, and when being reviled, he did not revile in return, while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting HImself to Him who judges righteously; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; by His wounds you were healed For you were once continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls." IPeter 2:15ff "Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything" IITimothy 2:7

OK Everybody this will be a long post and then I will take a break. My response to WordWolf is in green letters Consider Issiah 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all"

Well said Grace. I do see the value in bringing the hidden things to light. It is important to learn that even notable Christian Ministers are capable of being sinful, and that it is far wiser to obey God rather than men.