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I hate it when that happens mstar! Do long posts in Word or something first then post 'em. That way you dont lose 'em. Bumpy, those masks are amazing! I just love the apparent similarites between African tribal masks and native American ones...all of the Americas. Its really amazing! Gotta love that particular painting, dooj but seeing the star transposed over it is cool. Mary is obviously the focal point but Christ (who is in vitro) is in the little pyramid. Then you got the lines of the star, one going through the center of Mary and the other through the center of the men on the horizon. It makes you wonder what ole Mike was really thinking of when he painted this one. Could I live with it? You bet gotta love all that nakedness!

You have no idea what I've got and that is the real crux of your problem. The rest is your opinion based upon a belief that you have. You do not wish to be moved but you seem to act like what I might say could possibly cause you to reconsider. BS, you just want to know what I wrote in my book.

Just a question...since when does someone need a degree to write a book? I never claimed to be any kind of authority on homosexuality or on Biblical Studies or on the connection between so why am I being expected to act like one? I was very clear in both threads I dont want to have a big discussion on this. I have never gone out and said 'buy my book'. I simply made an announcement on this thread and gave you my opinion on another. My right to speak is in the Bill of Rights! http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/index-med.html http://www.ldolphin.org/Homo.shtml http://www.gladventist.org/isa/inge-faq.htm http://www.nobeliefs.com/luther.htm http://glow.cc/index.htm http://www.pflagdetroit.org/BibleandHomosexuality.html http://www.religioustolerance.com http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15030c.htm http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/religion.htm Here are a very few of the links that I used to come to my conclusions. Read them yourselves. There are 25 pages in my book of such links. Some influenced more than others I will put in more later if you want.

Happy birthday sweetie! Have a wonderful day, and do something special!!

WW and Jen-o, Hmmm....somehow you are missing what I am saying...I hold the Word of God in high esteem, is the Bible the actual Word of God? I think that it contains the words of God but because of many hands throughout the years has become flawed. Does that mean that I do not hold the Bible in high esteem? Perhaps or perhaps not. But I no longer believe what twi taught about it being completely infalable, and perhaps you still do or you believe something similar. I thought that the reason for studying the Bible was because there were things that we didnt understand. Am I wrong? And there it is in a nutshell. The way I read this is "Eyes you can 'explain' your position until you are blue in the face and you will always be wrong, because what I see is 'clearly stated'." So I ask you...why should I bother? According to you there cannot be peace between us and I dont want to fight and you say the same thing so why are we here? Also I am still waiting for you to tell me what I admitted to? Did you misread something that I posted...is it possible that you did not understand something that was written? Please tell me what I supposively said. Cman, I agree with you 100%. I am tired of the changing field and being the a target. And I also believe that this topic has so many little things that influence it just from the Bible itself, which is why I asked to not be drawn into a long drawn out discussion on a board such as this. There is just so much information and only so much space that Paw should pay for. And finally, Rhino, you seem like an intelligent man...so I'm going to address you as such. Your comment about the Bible and flawed doctrine is ridiculous. You know as well as I that the doctrine of thousands of organizations are not based upon the Bible. Now many may say that their doctrine is in fact based on the Bible but it is not. So please dont act stupid to try to take a cheap shot at me. It demeans both of us.

Sirguessalot...no worries, life happens. Take care of yours and be at peace. Jen-o I answered your question on the other thread, but you did not answer mine. What did I admit to? Rhino, the victors write the history. From your view it is not normal and in fact it is quite repulsive (I would guess) But from the other side of the coin, your are the one that is not normal and your sex life repulses them. I just see no point in relying on a document that has been flawed by many hands just like the soup. In this administration (if you want to call it that) the rule is Love not hate. So how can an organization that promotes a hateful doctrine be the authority. Do we listen to the Al quida? Their doctrins also promote hate. Cman, that is an interesting point of view. I had never thought of it quite that way but I think with that input I can understanding a bit more about the ancient Celts and the two-spirit people. I just thought that little line deserved another look see.

What pray tell are you talking about? My admission? Of what? How can you understand me if you don't know me? Face it we have never actually had a discussion. And for the record I dont 'hate' Christians I am one. I do however (as you) disagree with acts. The history of the Christian Church is a bloody one and I am often disgusted by the atrocities that I read about and the butchering of the scriptures is one of those atrocities. I hold the word(s) of God in high esteem. And I'm fairly certain that you do also. But we seem to disagree on some funamental issues. We both need to agree to disagree. But do please let me know what the heck you are talking about concerning the first comment.

You know I would truly love to know exactly what you want me to say. Jen-o stated that she believed that the verses in Leviticus are a list of abominations. She posted a few verses that seem to support her position. I Stated that the verses in Leviticus are talking about idolotry and idolotrous practices. I asked her to look at the verses in the beginning of the chapter (since she was fairly adament that she had read the "whole book" and indicated that she was familar with the verses) and I pointed out that it seems clear to me that the subject is idolotry not a listing general abominations. We disagree. I am not likely going to change her mind any time soon. Neither is she going to change my mind any time soon. So what is to discuss? I dont mind having a discussion or a friendly debate but I flat refuse to argue. I do not need to convince anyone of any position, I'm not telling you that the only way to please God is to be gay. I'm not trying to convince anyone that they should change their views. All I did was write a book about what I found and made it available for others if they want to read it. I dont need to justify myself to anyone except God. And I'm sorry Rhino and Jen neither one of you have ascended to the throne.

Here is the alleged contraversial post. I do not make this claim I simply say that I have changed my mind after rereading the verses and then studying them and then personal growth. Beyond that all of these other claims that I attacked anyone or was deliberately contentious or even mentioned my book at all...dont seem to be there. And yet I have also been accused of directly attacking in this post...where? I really dont see it nor did I intend to do so with I simply gave my opinion as did many others and was more than willing to leave it at that.Anyway Kimberly thank you for your kind words. Writing a book of any kind is very rewarding and in some ways difficult. But in the end it is all worth it. Let me know when your book comes out I would be interested in purchasing it.

Dooj, I've seen your work up close and personal...I really think you would have to be drinking 3 day old coffee, taking no-doze and have a gun to your head to paint such a piece. I also think that you are being kind when you say that it has too much energy. Thats kind of like saying a great white has a tooth. For the little amount of actual picture it is way too busy and hurried. Now as for Blake's stuff. I have to agree that his paintings (at least the two pictured) show two very different directions of thought. Schizo, ya I can see that and they do kind of look like what you would find in a homeless shelter. Could I live with either of them? Not for very long. The second picture intrigues me and I could probably waste several pages of perfectly good paper and ink writing something speculative concerning it but then I would be done and want to move along. And on to Wain. I love cats so of course I find his stuff adorable and yes I could live with it. Last but not least on to Le Bump. I love classical art and am always fascinated by the incredible amount of detail that the artist placed in one huge painting. Ceilings and grand walls and such are so packed with so many images that blend by using a central theme. I love how they all go in so many directions at once and use so many different colors and the way that they use shadow and perspective and the actual lighting that hits the surface...just so much I could go on and on. I dont know all the technical terms but the way that the frescos use the architecture and blend with it is simply wonderful to me. Could I live with it? Need you ask?

I hear you, I really do...but just as individuals are well...individual so are circumstances and reactions to circumstances. And from what I hear sometimes the sex is worse than a chore. Some have lots of children to stay sane and out of the 'bed' if you know what I mean. And I think that you hit the nail on the head with your statement "to be a sin it has to be a choice" That is the definition of 'sin' a willful breaking of God's rules...if homosexuality is not a conscious choice then it by definition cannot be a sin. I loved Melissa Etherid*es comment to Sen. Cl!nton, something to the effect of 'do you think that we all just woke up one morning and said, hey I think I'll be homosexual now?' Gotta love the irony in that one.

Mona is alright. It is a nice warm painting and like Dooj I tend to focus on her hands, I think they're lovely. Could I live with it, ya I could endure it in the house.

I have to tell you Bramble that I totally agree with you and have witnessed dozens or more gays trying to act and or live the straight lifestyle because of some peer pressure somewhere. It is sad really when you think about how many people live in a marriage usually with children that although they may love their spouse they never really got to live how they felt or where their heart took them. But if they try to come out as your young friend did they get chastised and told that they are 'wrong' somehow. I read a story recently where a man was talking of a female relative of his that had been a tomboy that actually wanted to be a boy when she was a child. Her 'tomboy' lifestyle continued but 'with propper parenting' she ended up 'fine', married to a man and she has many children, and 'she is very happy'. Forgive me, but how the heck does he really know that? I have known many who could act really well and appeared very happy and some were to an extent...I mean what choice did they have? Really, they could choose to come out of the closet and alienate their family and loved ones or they could find a piece of happiness in the straight life that society chose for them. My mom always told me to not judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. (I'm sure someone else said it first but it was my mom that I remember). I'm not saying that you cant understand how a gay thinks or feels unless you are one...am I...Yes I am. A man cannot truly understand a woman and visa-versa, also a heterosexual cannot truly understand a homosexual and visa-versa. They just dont think the same way. Well, in some things they do. Such as some gay people are disgusted beyond belief to see two people of the opposite sex kiss, just as some heteros are disgusted by watcing two men kiss. But essentially they are different. Perhaps this is why the ancient world saw gay people as holy people and made them priests and priestesses...no joke. Anyway, I really dont think that the way that the Bible has been handled on this subject is very accurate and it reflects a lot of personal opinion. Anytime God's love is turned to hate especially since the coming of Christ a person should ask themselves if it really is God's will and not man's agenda.

Sir Guess Alot and Roy, You are probably both correct in that no "Isreal" was not around from the beginning but the unseen things of God were. The referrence also emphasizes the fact that 'whoever' the writer is talking about 'knew' ginosko God. I left that out of my short analysis as twi pounded that word into my brain so hard I obviously erroneously thought that everyone had it as a permanent fixture as well. Very few of the 'cosmopolitan' people in Rome or anywhere else in the world could make that claim or have that claim made for them at that time in history. And I dont think that I said that Isreal had been around since the beginning...did it read that way? The author is, I believe trying to give an example of 'what not to do or this will happen to you', and he is using the closest example possible. He is probably talking to a larger group than just the 'saints' but the message is good for everyone. As far as homosexual warnings being more about I am curious how you view the two-spirit people and fact that they were and now again are accepted into the communities as liminal people who are granted special wisdom and understanding about both genders to better serve God and their people. And yes you are correct that fundamental hindus do regard homosexuality as sinful but traditionalist do not. The difference being that the traditionalists did not acquuiesce to the Christian missionaries when they came to shove their religion down their throats as the Muslims had tried to do only a few centuries before. I dont believe that this is a matter of what everyone else believes I agree with Abi, I walk my own walk.

Funny you asked this, I just got one today that I was going to post on the site tonight or tomorrow. Its me with my "summer" uniform. Woo Hoo! :) Love you Roy!

That was quite a breakdown on this painting. Me I'm a bit more simplistic. I like it but it doesnt flip any switches for me. I like the detail that he put into the vases and the rug and in the hair of the girls but as you said Lindy the rest of it is kind of flat and I understand that that was the artists intent but it kind of makes me feel kinda flat. I liked the first one better. It had more depth to me. But hey I'm just a looker and not a doer when it comes to this kind of painting.

Lindy, actually I'm quite happy that you started this discussion. I really don't want to get into any arguments those just end up getting ugly and often end up in the basement. So with great joy I am happy to discuss. Oh and thanks for bringing this to the Doctrinal forum. I just noticed this thread this evening so I'm a bit late but... Since we're starting with Romans, Roy I dont disagree with you but I think we could expand upon it a bit to get a clearer understanding. As Abi said there is a certain amount of the chapter that does talk about hypocrites. But I really dont want to make this post too long so if we all just start at the beginning of the thought we can all discuss what we see and think as we go through the chapter. I hope that is ok with everyone...if not just say so. Anyway...Romans 1:17, 18 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith" For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Notice that the writer is referring to all "ungodliness and unrighteousness of men and not all ungodly and unrighteous men. They are verbs not nouns, this is important because it is always good to know who someone is talking about and it clearly shows that he is talking about "acts" not "people". Romans 1:19, 20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. This is fairly easy to understand, given the actual time period in which this particular epistle was written it is clear that the writer is referring to Isreal. They were the "things that are made" that God "manifest" Himself in and "shewed it" to them. "It" being the "invisible things" "from the creation of the world" that were "clearly seen" and "understood by the things that are made" including "His eternal power and Godhead" so now those people have "no excuse" for their acts. These two verses taken in context with the previous verses leads the reader to expect a list of ungodly and unrighteous acts. Which is kind of not what the reader gets. Romans 1:21 Because that when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were they thankful: but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. This verse gives us an unexpected turn. Instead of a list of bad things the writer has decided to give a chronological "how it happened" or "how it can happen". The first thing that the "things that are made" did was they did not glorify Him as God, and they stopped being thankful to God...when this was done they then became (which is a cause and effect word) vain or empty in their imaginations or thoughts and their foolish (which means exactly that 'foolish') heart was darkened. The heart as always represents that which a man loves or desires and that became dark or rather 'without light'. Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. They 'professed' (to declare or admit openly, to pretend, to declare in words only, to practice or claim to be versed in) themselves (they did the professing no-body did it for them) to be wise, they became (the cause and effect word) fools. They claimed to be wise, they knew it all they according to the previous verse did not worship God as God nor did they thank Him their thoughts became empty and their hearts became dark and they professed their great wisdom while they became fools. So this post is long enough anyone with more insight? I would love to hear it. It seems pretty clear so far to me but I'm not perfect either. Now if I could just learn how to spell.

Wow MStar you saw a whole lot more than I did! I guess it just didnt hit that spark for me.

Hey Belle! Where ya been honey? I've missed your posts. How close are you to publishing? I am anxiously awaiting the full book. Oh and thanks for the beer, you know that I can use it and I will drink it...nearly as fast as a Mojito! Roy, it is always a pleasure to hear you opinion and I consider what you said here as very high marks in my favor. Thank you dear friend! Can't wait to read some of what you have written. Bumpy, you always come up with some little piece of news that tantilizes my brain cells. Thank you! Jeffso, I actually would appreciate an honest scolarly discussion on the subject. But you may have noticed that the second I tell my opinion... I am attacked, long before I have a chance to elaborate (that is IF the thread is condusive to it). They claim to want to debate but they only attack and never read all that is written by myself or the Bible. I do not need to justify my findings to anyone nor do I need to "prove" my worthiness to actually study either. I seek to find the truth concerning many things, as do most people. I do not claim to have found the ALL TRUTH nor have I ever claimed such a thing. But I have been accused of that also. I find it funny that so many who were once led by a bull ring now are so unmovable. Anyway, if you wish to discuss it...what the heck. I will discuss it and present some of my views but please do not expect me to copy all of my findings onto GS. That simply would not be right to Paw.

It is probably a blessing that you didnt...come to think of it, its probably a blessing that I didnt either back then.

Personally, I like the piece but I couldnt live with it. It simply wouldnt match my decor and would probably be too big to put into my bedroom (where I keep a collage of things that I personally like but may not fit in with the rest of the house). I love the period dress and the garden lamps. It has an 'innocence' about it that I find somewhat wistful. He he I feel like I'm back in Humanities class...this is fun. I dont know how to post pictures so someone else will have to give us another one to look at.

Well I was working as a waitress to pick up the slack left on my my college education bill before I went out WOW, so when I got on the field I just picked it up again. It was such a great job that had such great tips that my WOW sister quit the job she had gotten and came to work with me. We both loved it! My second WOW year started out a bit rougher, I broke my back the second week in and was unable to do the waitress gig, so in the fourth week I got a job in a hardware/ department store. It was a tiny town so it was a tiny store. After about a month on the job I got the coveted shipping and receiving position which paid quite a bit more, and was a single person job but it was also a 40 hour a week job. I took it anyway and the Limb Coordinator never let on that he was any wiser. (Looking back I'm pretty sure he knew, but he had another agenda and didnt really care). It wasnt a great job but I was able to heal and still work and be alone while I did it. So all in all, like Twinky the jobs I had in both years were a blessing and I enjoyed them immensly.

It's amazing sculpture but the realizm is a bit disturbing.