Eyesopen

One thing you can say about the Corps...we did know how to get things done and often have fun doing it...despite what the boss said.

Wow...but it looks really good! So it was worth the time.

Ok, so what we got is the favored, the unfavored, the ignored and the 'please shut them up' catagories. Hmmm...I think I kinda got a taste (thankfully not a honey wagon taste) of all of them. At first I was definately unfavored, being the arch nemesis of Kruddy McNutt will do that to a person. But then folks started seeing what a gem she really was and I started getting treated a bit better. Then I was one of the few undamaged survivors (umm..better known as witnesses to the defense) from one of the disasterous LEAD adventures. So my popularity rose again and I got to work two jobs at Corps Week and the Rock, I got to work making WOW burgers, which was a lot of fun and I worked back stage as well. But then I blew it and started asking questions...got myself kicked out...and then was asked to be an Area Coordinator. How does that happen? When the new Limb bozo showed up and he decided I wasnt submissive enough and I was asked politely to step down. I didnt like the job after all and certainly didn't want to work for him...so I tendered my resignation and went back to school. I guess I got the whole enchilada as well Catcup. Groucho....that was hysterical! Ya but I dont recall him sitting in too many of those oh so comfortable chairs.

I remember way back in the '80's that LCM made a big deal about the actual 'chance' part of gambling. That it was 'playing with God's money' or some other such nonsense. I remember my father getting very upset with this comment by LCM, "If you have enough money to gamble then you have more that you should be giving to the Way to move the Word of God!" That may not be an exact quote but it is close. It ticked daddy off that this upstart would tell him what to do with the money that he had earned with the sweat off of his back. And I gotta tell you I agreed then and I still do. As far as biblical doctrine. I dont remember ever being showed any doctrine. So I go with 'all things in moderation'. Although I do understand what Kit has to deal with in her job as I also worked in the Casinos but it was back when I was young. Its hard to look at someone loose when you can tell that they really cannot afford to do so. We had a gambling addiction add here in Nevada some years ago. It showed a man playing craps and as he shook the dice he said "come on...baby needs a new pair of shoes" then he threw and got...yup he got craps. That line is joke to most locals now but it does emphasize what Kit was talking about.

So let me get this straight this Maxfield Parrish did that effect with laquer? I'm so glad I'm not an artist...way too many mediums to consider. And that Asian thing of George's...so simply elegant. Very nice! Ron, I got an issue of the Smithsonian that has an article about Mr. Crewdson. There were several other pics of his work in the magazine but this particular one really caught my eye. I didnt care for the house fire picture which unfortunately I cant find a copy of on the net. But the article talked about his book "Beneath the Roses" which has a whole collection of photos in it that were shot just for this book. It was interesting. So when are you going to post one of your pics? MStar...I can hang (no pun intended) with the scaling church walls, but 25 years in stainded glass...not my taste. I'll leave it to the experts like you and I'll just admire the magnificent work. Amazing stuff.

I really like this one by Crewdson. It almost looks like a painting. Amazing! MStar- I love stained glass...and let me tell you that it is not easy to make. I tried it once and had a heck of a time getting it just so. Of course you already know that...hehe. But from my point of view knowing how difficult it is makes it all the more beautiful to me.

Jeff dear, I think what OK City posted was a joke..if it wasnt it should be as I was laughing like crazy! Have to admit tho there were some interesting correlations drawn in that little 'article'.

I saw a sign today for unleaded regular at $4.65 a gallon. Unbelievable! But the station half a block down the road had it for $4.15. Gotta wonder who the boss p!ssed off. He wont be getting too many customers at that rate.

Amazing! They actually have more color and life than a photo. I want one! Ok so I'll settle for a print. Cant quite afford the real thing, or find a wall to fit it...but I want one.

Hmmm...from a doctrinal point of view, I agree that one cannot separate doctrinal from practical. Doctrine is supposed to be a guildline. It seems to me that the example that we see in Jesus Christ woud be a good place to start. No I'm not talking about the fact that the Bible as we have it today does not record him talking about the subject. That is a different subject. I'm talking about how he treated people in general. I bring this up because he was the one that showed everyone how the doctrinal was to be put into the practical in all things from the Sabbath to teaching. So how did Jesus treat people? As I recall he treated the vast majority with compassion, understanding and love. He looked upon the intent of the man/womans heart and not necessarily on their actions or sins. Look at Mary Magdalene for example. Certainly her sin was great and yet he chastised the other people in the city stronger than he did her...why? Because of her heart. She ended up becoming a very influential leader in the early church and if the record in the Bible is correct the first person to see the resurrected Jesus. The people that Jesus treated harshly were those that had 'hardened their hearts' against God or His people. It seems to me that he was hardest on those that knowingly and deliberately blasphemed God. For example the money changers that did their buisness in the Temple. This was not an unknown custom. The Temple in ancient times was also the bank. So why did Jesus get so angry at them? I'm not certain but it could be because they broke God's commandment that He had written in Ezekiel concerning the loaning of money and the amount of interest that you can charge. They intentionally swindled the people of God and used His Temple with which to add credence to their 'company'. How would I treat a homosexual? With compassion, understanding, love and acceptance, just as I believe my Savior would have done. You cannot redeem someone to the household if you are railing against them. Jesus is my example so I guess I would follow him.

Yup! Exactly what a person needs on the bathroom wall...something to ponder in the positive and negative spaces.... No really its a nice piece, but not my favorite. I still like the lady in the boat and the shepherdress.

Now now, you know someone's heart was warmed by it, they did after all have a party. I rather like that birch tree scene. Tho I must admit I am kind of looking for the horse or wolf or whatever to come out from the shadows, like those perspective paintings that are so popular. See if you can find all 10 wolves in the forest... That one would look good on the bathroom wall. Kind of gives a person something to think about and ponder while they're waiting for mother nature to do her magic.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/

Heeheh heee haww heee hee haahaaha .... thanks, that was very refreshing.

Now that that bit of nastyness is out of the way...no offense Bumpy, normally I find your posts to be a welcome relief from some tense moment, but please dont do what you just did again to me. So....Bride, I am sorry for not posting last night but for some reason the browser would not even come to GS. I tried several times but finally gave up. The place that I get information on the ancient Greek language so I can see a fuller meaning of a word is called Perseus tuft. Here are some links that I have in my bibliography. They are only on one word, Porneo or pornos. It was used in I Cor 5:1 and is most commonly translated as fornication. I had no real reason to look it up except I wanted to get the full context of I Cor 6:9 and it (fornication) seemed like the topic. Anyway here are the links: “Pornos. Demosthenes, Speeches 22, section 73.” Kata Androtiônos Paranomôn, Editions and Translations: S. H. Butcher and W. Rennie, based on Demosthenis. Orationes. Oxonii. E Typographeo Clarendoniano. 1907 and 1921. Perseus Tufts Online Classics Collection, with assistance by The Annenberg CPB/Project 2006. <Demosthenes, Speeches 21-30 speech 22, section 73> “Pornos. Aeschines, Speeches #1, section 130.” Kata Timarchou, Translations: Charles Darwin Adams, Ph.D. Cambridge, MA, based on Aeschines. Aeschines, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1919. Perseus Tufts Online Classics Collection, with assistance by The Annenberg CPB/Project 2006. <Aeschines, Speeches speech 1, section 130> “Pornos. Aeschines, Speeches #1, section 157.” Kata Timarchou, Translations Charles Darwin Adams, Ph.D. Cambridge, MA, based on Aeschines. Aeschines, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1919. Perseus Tufts Online Classics Collection, with assistance by The Annenberg CPB/Project 2006. <Aeschines, Speeches speech 1, section 157> “Pornoi. Demosthenes, Letters 4.10.” Peri tês Thêramenous blasphêmias. Editions and Translations: Greek, W. Rennie | English, Norman W. DeWitt, Norman J. DeWitt 1931. Based on the book: Demosthenes. Orationes. ed. W. Rennie. Oxford: Clarendon Press. 1931. Perseus Tufts Online Classics Collection, with assistance by The Annenberg CPB/Project 2006. <Demosthenes, Letters (ed. W. Rennie) card 4.10> I looked up a good many words using this particular sight. One of the most illuminating words that I looked at here was the word Malakos which is translated 'effeminate' in I Cor 6:9 and is used to say that this verse is talking about 'homos' (to quote LCM) If you look this word up in the Bible and in Perseus you will find that nowhere does it allude to homosexuals or the act in any way. But it does talk about 'soft' men who wear 'soft' clothing, and a referrence is made to the slaves in Herod's household who have become weak and soft. It is also linked with disease but there is more to support that it is referring to a group of people of type of people being a disease in a community than anything else. Anyway it is a great site for research that is just a bit above and beyond.

Hmmm... have you ever stopped to think that maybe someone else reworked the Bible to say that homosexuality was a sin? And perhaps after 1700 years of constantly being told that 'this is the way it is' and having the freedom to persecute people for their sexual orientation maybe we have just been buying and selling another bigots point of view for so long that we really believe it? I asked a question of myself and then of God and the Bible. What I found may not be what 'mainstream Chrisitanity' teaches but that doesnt preclude it from being right. My conclusions may be wrong...only time will tell, but at least I didnt just swallow the hook again because it tasted good to me at the time. This may have been plagerized (well it was plagerized) but the words actually meant something to me: ...Who teach because they love the teacher's task And find their richest prize In eyes that open, and in minds that ask. I have asked questions since I was a child, in fact it was in asking questions that got me kicked out of twi. I will never stop questioning the world around me and I will never stop questioning any doctrines that are promoted as truth and/or Godly when they encourage hate and violence. And frankly I dont give a rats tail if I sell one more book if it were only about money...I have said it over and over again but some just never seem to believe me, I am not doing this to sell books and make money, I never even intended to write one, but since it developed that way I made it available for those that were interested. If you're not interested then please feel free to stop posting on this thread. I dont get it! Why is there so much talk about me making money or selling books? Some of you act as if my mind is on money. It that's what you think, mister you got two more thoughts coming and their both wrong!

I hear you here, I really do and of course I still love my family if they sin or whatever. Perhaps I should expound on this a bit...when I lived in Little Rock after my first WOW year and prior to entering into the Corps I worked as a waitress at a Mexican Restaraunt. Among my co-workers besides an 11th Corps grad who was my Way home coordinator and my WOW brother, there were several bisexual or gay people. Now I was not ignorant and I had worked with gay people in a restaraunt setting before I went out WOW. So to me this was no big deal. I had been taught by my parents that your "judge" each person on an individual basis and never upon their skin color, race, religion or sexual orientation or whatever. There was never a "love the person and hate the sin" mentality or doctrine in my family. So when twi introduced me to it I simply could not swallow it. To me people are people, if they make a mistake and "sin" ok, dont do it again. If they have a habit of it I dont sweat it I just walk away since they obviously dont want to change. Now this would be just fine when it came to homosexuality except for one thing... I actually got to know quite a few of them and became friends. Some loved God and wanted to hear the word but they were not allowed at twig until they professed their change in lifestyle. Which of course they had major problems in doing. I talked with one of them at length about this and deep in my soul I realized that she couldnt change. It didnt matter if it was a sin, or a learned behavior or if anyone else thought that she could, she just could not be something that she wasnt. This should have set off red flags and sent me running from twi but it didnt. I figured that she must just be an isolated case. My Way home Coordinator told me to just brush the dust off....but that didnt make sense either. Jesus said 'if they dont hear you' then brush them off. But she wanted to hear and was denied. I just couldnt and still cant wrap my brain around the seperation. My family is full of 'sinners' including myself, as we all are, but if someone wanted the word I would never brush them off despite whatever sin they were in. Since that time I have met and now know many gay people and have found that my friend was not an isolated incident. Now, without twi I just lived my life and accepted people as they are because no matter what I may say they arent going to change anything unless they want to. But I dont 'hate' the sin, I simply choose which 'sins' as it were, that I will allow access to my life by way of a friend. Did that make sense? Romans was one of the sections of verse that I studied in the Greek. But there are actually 10 sections of verse that are used regularly to prove the sin nature of homosexuality, and all of the ones in the NT I studied in the Greek. I didnt know that there were so many going into this but I figured it out pretty quickly. Anyway, I know that sometimes in the Bible a word is used that it is difficult to ascertain the actual meaning of or it is a word that is only used once in the Bible. I dont like to take anyone's word for it when it comes to definitions of ancient words as those meanings can change quickly in a culture or not at all (which is of course another reason why knowing the history is so important). So what I did with most of them was look them up in the writings of Authors, Poets, Speeches and anything else that has survived the centuries to see how the word was used in everyday language. This was quite helpful in several places. Let me look up the link and get back to you. It is fairly simple to use as you can change it from Greek to English but you have to know kind of what you are looking for before you switch. I dont think I ever got the 'pleasure' of such a teaching and if I did it apparently was altogether forgettable. I really hated the way that we had to treat the guys in residence. It always felt like the ladies had to kiss their tails and pretend to not be smart or have an idea anytime a man was around. It probably wasnt easy on them either tho, they had to have all the answers or they would be chastised. I just thought it was sickening. But I would like to see what you have found on the topic.I gotta go and make dinner, so I'll get back at you before the night is out. (on the West side) Thanks for the support Jeff, I really appreciate your kind words.

Of course I will sign it and I very much have looked forward to your critique especially of the things that you did not agree with or you found something missing from them. It sounds like we will have lots to talk about while we tool around Houston trying to find our hotel. Thank you for the kind words as well they mean a great deal to me.

Oh my goodness! The realism and the beauty of that realism is just breathtaking. I would love to have a print of any of them. I really like the shepperdess and the lady in the boat. What I wouldnt give to paint like that.

Actually I didnt pick this topic. I was asked if it was a sin or not and I was unable to give an answer that I was comfortable with. When I was in twi the verses seemed clear at the time and I felt comfortable saying that it was a sin. But even then I was not comfortable with the dicotomy caused by the 'love the person hate the sin' doctrine. How pray tell does someone seperate the two? I guess some folks were able to do so and some still do but I just couldnt do it. Anyway, when I was asked if it was a sin 10 years after leaving twi forever and I found that the verses were no longer as clear as they once had been and the person asking me was asking some pointed questions that made me wonder if I really knew what the book was saying. What I found in the OT was that with a simple lesson in history and culture the verses made perfect sense without a lot of extra study. In the NT things were a bit more complicated especially in Romans where the writer relies heavily upon what 'everyone' knew. But once again with some more history lessons and quite a bit of Greek study specifically of the language and how some words were used in the everyday venacular, a picture soon developed. All in all I found that the NT follows well with the OT in practical doctrines and customs. If there was a specific section of verses that you were interested in I would be happy to tell you what I found if you tell me which one. As far as ridding yourself of twi doctrine and beliefs sometimes it is easiest to read, as you have, what others have done, such as the things that Raf did on PFAL. Most of the conclusions I agree with and some I do not but that is to be expected. Not that I agree with the teaching either but I dont totally agree with where he (and others) went with it. But I myself have not bothered to rehash PFAL so I have no other conclusion to offer. The topic of homosexuality or the twi doctrine concerning it was never a big concern to me and I doubt if I ever truly would have researched it had I not been asked and hence got intrigued. I was more bothered by the 'submission' doctrine that twi promoted and perhaps one day I will research that one. Exie darlin' there are so many things about vp that a person can have a problem with, adultery was just one of many. Feel free to jump in whenever you like.

So I pulled this out of the pie fight on the other thread. The blue is Jen-o and the red is my response. I received no response as of yet to this post, but am patienly waiting to see if this is what Jen-o wanted or not. On this thread I made this statement: To which Rhino replied: And I replied: Perhaps my reply here is not clear enough as Rhino is still saying that I have said that the Bible is a flawed and hateful document. So just to set the record straight...I am not saying that at all. I am saying that the book itself has had many "hands" in it since it first began long before some of it was even written down, to me this means that it is flawed. If you have a better word then please use it. I clearly never said that the Bible was hateful, I said (basically) how can an organization promote a hateful doctrine. If you equate the Bible with an organization than fine, but I do not. As Bramble continues to say doctrine that is harmful or not helpful does not seem Godly to me and should not be equated with God or His word and I agree. And finally, Rhino if I somehow inadvertantly or by your perception have wronged you than I apologize. But if 'the shoe fit' with one of my more downgrading comments then that sir is on you as I directed none of my comments to anyone in particular, just as I said in the homosexual marriage thread. Jen-o decided to take my opinion personally for which I asked her why and she could give me no answer that I found to be adaquit. But you have indicated that you wish it to be done so it is. Done. With that being said....can we go back to the orginal topic of this thread...please?

Thank you for your kind words, I agree that questioning is not a bad thing...although sometimes my boss would prefer that I do that after I have done what I was told to do. As for this question, I would like to answer it. During the research part of my book where what I was writing was a jumble of what is actually written (in English) and my personal views (which have changed) and the sheer volume of information on any given piece of the subject matter, it was a time of discovery and inner reflection. As the project moved forward from one section of verse to another I saw a synergy of the scripture that I had taken as hype from the vicster. I'm not saying that it 'fits like a hand in a glove' or that every section will agree with every other section, but there is a flow and definate connection between the scritures that reflects the common roots of the writers. Because of this I gained a deep respect for the books that are in the Bible that definately influences my thinking and of course my view of life. Another thing that my research did was open doors of thought and opinion that I otherwise may have overlooked. It is very easy for a researcher or scientist in any field to become narrow minded, and by that I mean that their focus is so accutely on what they are studying that they sometimes inadvertantly put on blinders that 'narrow' ones view. A biblical researcher is no different in that respect. Sometimes it is good to shake up the ole brain and look at views that are at polar opposites to your own. If nothing else you allow yourself to see from a different view the same topic. It's like looking at the Grand Canyon from the West rim and then going over and looking at the same place in the Canyon from the East rim. Its the same thing but you get more depth of understanding. It is a continuing journey as you said. This topic was I believe the first of many. And as I alluded to in the previous paragraph one of the hardest things to do in science is to not allow your own personal preconclusions to cloud the research. One cannot go in with a conclusion only to work towards the same conclusion. That would not be honest or helpful. I recall in TWI that is exactly what Dr. did and hence taught us how to do. Many times I heard him say something and then when he couldnt find the verse he was looking for to verify what he had just said he would ask Walter to find it in the Bible where it says something to support his comment. That was not honest, but we learned ourselves how to do that by watching him and I saw lots of TC's and above do exactly that. (And just to be clear, I'm not refering to anyone in particular) This project also took me in a direction that twi would never have approved of. Can you see me presenting this book as my Corps research paper? Me neither! Although I used a lot more research materials and sources than were ever made available to graduating Corps to finish their papers. But to be fair part of that is due to the internet but still. So to make a short answer long, this project has allowed me to heal some of what I did not percieve as broken from my twi days and has opened my eyes, heart and mind to the actual words of God that are nestled inside of the Bible. It has helped me in immesurable ways from a research point of view and has I believe made me a more flexable person. I really cant wait to see what tomorrow will bring. I hope that answers your question.

Wow Dan, that's nothing short of beautiful! It's so realistic and intriquit. (Did I spell that right?) Anyway this painting really could live in my house, it could work with the decor and if it wasnt too big I might have a wall for it. It gives me a sense of serenity and joy. I really like it.

Ya Shellon I gotta agree with you on that one. I was 'hoping' but I dont think it will be getting me anywhere fast. But it was worth a shot. Bride, that's an interesting piece of information. Thank you.

I'll take it into consideration. And please do not buy my book....unlike vp, I dont give a rats tail if you do or not...but wait I think I've said that several times. Sorry didnt mean to repeat myself.